Featured T - Total Depravity

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.


Jesus said that the girl was not dead, but asleep. So when Jesus word wakes us up by listening and learning from it. His word is Spirit and life.

We run to Christ to be alive in Him, even though we are still dead in sin.

It takes God word through Jesus for us to know how dead everyone, (even those who run to Christ) is and that there is life only in Christ.

I am not talking about how God sees everything where time does not exist where everything has already been done.

I am talking about in time where we are living today, where God is included us and He is using us to be His messengers to the ends of the earth. It is our curse to work the fields from the day of Adam not God. He gave us the seed and water, we plant and water and God will make it grow.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

It was not written upon their hearts pre-birth, several scriptures show this.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Scripture is clear that knowledge is what makes a man responsible for sin. A newborn baby cannot understand between right and wrong and therefore cannot be held responsible for sin.

All men since Adam are born with the knowledge of good and evil, but it takes time to mature. How long does it take? It probably varies from person to person, and only God knows when a person is mature enough to understand and be accountable.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Why did Adam and Eve die the moment they ate the forbidden fruit? Because their eyes were opened and they understood between good and evil. They were now responsible for their disobedience and spiritually died.

Their sin did not cause physical death, because they could have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

All men die as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam's sin because man was driven out of the garden and prevented from eating of the tree of life. If man eats of the tree of life he will physically live forever, proving that sin does not cause physical death, at least not directly.

Back to your questions, without law, man himself decides what is sin and what is not. But even in the most primitive societies, certain behavior is universally recognized as sin, such as murder, stealing, adultery, lying...

Read the OT before the law, men clearly recognized sinful behavior. Read how king Abimelech was innocent when he took Sarah, Abraham's wife, because he did not know she was married to Abraham.

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her

When God warned king Abimelech that he was a dead man because he took Abraham's wife, Abimelech protested that he was innocent because he did not know Sarah was his wife, in fact, both Abraham and Sarah had misled him. God did not hold Abimelech guilty of sin.

This was hundreds of years before the law, but men knew it was a sin to have another man's wife.

Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

So, all men when they mature understand between right and wrong, good and evil, and this is what makes them accountable and responsible for their sin.

Therefore no baby can be guilty of Adam's sin.

 

Hi Willis.

I'm not sure I would try to delinieate between 1st 2nd 3rd tri-mester or birth being the temporal becoming of the Law written on men's hearts.

I think you are defining "Law" too narrowly to ask it this way. I think what Paul says in Romans chapter 2 is to say little more than that mankind (I believe regardless of either pre-or post-fall) knows the fundamentals of right and wrong.

In a sense, even Adam had "law" (and it consisted of: don't eat from this tree...busy yourself about tending my garden) That's it.

The point is, there is an innate knowledge of right and wrong which is absolutely Universal and all mankind has always known it: Even the most Pagan of societies: C.S. Lewis' wrote a snippet called "Illustrations of the Tao" wherein he compared Old Testament with Viking Mythology, Mithraism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and a gazillion other ancient mythologies and charted their Universal condemnation of
1.) Murder
2.) Infidelity
3.) Dishonest business pratices
4.) Theft
5.) Disobedience to elders/parents
6.) Involuntary Manslaughter etc........

It's important to see Paul in Romans 2: stating that when they "judgest another" they are a "judgement unto themselves". Saying that literally whenever they adjudicate or punish crime....any judge is "writing law" for himself as well.

It's simply an assumption that man knows....innately the basics of right and wrong. I imagine as soon as any man can cognate the will to commit a sin.......he similarly and simultaneously cognates the innate knowledge that it is wrong.

 

My brother Willis is an Elder at an Old School Baptist Church....IE, he sits amongst the Elders of that Religious Society & these are very learned men & women who have honed their religious beliefs & convictions through exacting scriptural study for a very long time. Willis, I would suggest you purchase & read the book, "Whatever Happened to the Gospel of Grace" by James Montgomery Boice. If you have questions regarding it, please feel free to contact me privately or on the other board were we can talk more freely. There is a worldliness here brother and it produced some very pragmatic agendas. The book will set you straight....its a good read, one that will center you more to our central doctrines though I'm certain your moored by both your studies & the Brethren. I gotta go. Have a blessed Sunday.:love2:

 

The bolded is concerning and would lead me to believe these people are not as learned individuals if they have women elders.

 

They dont have women Elders. But the women are learned as they study scripture with equal devotion.

 

OK...it read to me that way initially.

 

This is rediculous! "In Adam all die" can only refer to those physcially born from the loins of Adam because death entered the human race through Adam not through Christ. Hence, physical birth has to do with Adam not Christ and it is not spiritual but physical.

In direct contrast, spiritual life did not originate with Adam or any fallen human in Adam but "in Christ" and physical birth does not place one "in Christ" but only spiritual birth does.

Moreover, not all in Adam physcically are in Christ spiritually. The kind of birth does make the difference. Hence, physical belongs to Adam and spiritual belongs to Christ when it comes to death versus life. Adam is never once attributed as the source of "life" in contrast to "death."

 

Paul's point is that there has only been ONE LAW given to man in regard to the entrance of death into the human race and it is not the Mosaic Law or conscience. The Mosiac law was TOO LATE for all those who died between Adam and Moses to be the cause of death. The conscience was never given by God as the cause for death. Genesis 2:17 is the ONLY LAW given to man that has death as its consequence and it was violated by ONE MAN whereby all of its consequences - condemnation and death was made the reality of all mankind though ONE ACT by that ONE MAN.


The law of conscience does "the work" (Rom. 2:14-15) of the Mosaic law in that it provides a conscious and responsible distinction between right and wrong. However, death did not come by violation of conscience. God never set up the conscience to be the pathway through which death would come. Conscience, like the Law of Moses simply reveals WHAT IS ALREADY THERE - SIN NATURE due to ONE MAN'S ACT because in Adam the entire human nature existed and acted in one man "for ALL HAVE sinned" (aorist tense -completed puntillar action). That is the whole point of his repetitive "by one man" and one act from Romans 5:12 forward.

 

What a crock. If Romans 5:12-14 was teaching Original Sin it would not speak of men from Adam to Moses only, it would speak of ALL MEN.

You are correct in that there was only one written law from Adam to Moses, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of this sin, as it was absolutely impossible that they could do so, man being banned from the garden and separated from the tree. Moreoever, this scripture says sin IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. So why did men from Adam to Moses spiritually die? Because they offended the law written on their hearts spoken of by Paul in chapter 2. There Paul said men without the law shall PERISH without the law. In chapter 2 Paul does not make any reference to Adam whatsoever.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Is there any mention of the law given to Adam in the garden here? NONE. Paul says these men perish because they offend the law written on their own hearts, not because of Adam.

 

Sorry, whats "rediculous" is the notion everyone that is in Adam dies physically
and is branded a sinner when Christ died physically and was fully man.

 

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Amazing, false teachers say we all died because we all sinned "in Adam" when he sinned in the garden, when the scriptures specifically say men DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. The scriptures LITERALLY tell us this.

Once again, false teachers teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture says. How do people fall for this nonsense?

 

The wages of sin is death and death entered the world by one man and his one act! = Rom. 5:12

Death did not come as a result of obedience to God but disobedience. Death is the judgment of violating the Law of Genesis 2:17. If none but Adam violated it then none but Adam would have died. However, Paul's argument is clear to anyone who can read - "by one man" and one act many were made sinners and thus many be dead. He did not say by many acts many became sinners and many died but that is what your rationale demands.

 

Yes, you are a false teacher with a false gospel that is clear! Don't complain about being called a false teacher as you are the one that started labeling others false teachers who disagree with your position. The similitude of Adam's transgression is spelled out by Paul in 1 Tim. 2:12 as a WILLFUL discernable act of sin, but not so with Eve and not so with infants or those incapable of WILLFUL sin but yet they suffer the consequence spelled out in Genesis 2:17 "dying thou shalt surely die" and it is a consequence of violating this first law given by God to man. The Law of Moses was too late to account for sin or death. The conscience was never established by God to provide the entrance of death into the world nor was any act by any other man established by God to be how death enters into the world. Nor is death NATURAL but the clear explicit consequence of violating Genesis 2:17 and it is spelled out in the King's English for anyone capable of reading.

 

Who said death was not the wages of sin?

Romans 5:14 says men from Adam to Moses (not all men) DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What part of "had not" do you not understand? If your view is correct (it isn't) then scripture would say that all men sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin.

Paul is simply showing that sin was in the world, even when there was not written law from Adam to Moses, and this is why men spiritually died. They died because they offended the law written on their hearts that Paul had already explained in chapter 2. He was not saying men sinned "in Adam". In fact, the only time this term is used in scripture is 1 Cor 15:22 and speaks of physical death. In addition, it says "in Adam all DIE" which is FUTURE TENSE. So, it is not teaching Original Sin and that all men died in Adam.

What Romans 5 is saying is that Adam's sin set a legal precedent for death to be the penalty for all sin.

It is like the young people who used LSD in the early 60s. There were no laws against this harmful drug, and law enforcement could do nothing to stop it's use. Because of persons like Timothy Leary, laws were quickly passed to make the production and use of LSD illegal. So, as Adam introduced the penalty of death for sin into the world, Timothy Leary likewise introduced criminal penalties for the production and use of LSD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary

Likewise, Jesus introduced righteousness through faith. When we believe on Jesus, as Jesus believed on his Father, righteousness is imputed to us. This is what Romans 5:12-19 is teaching.

 

Yes the payment of sin is death...the exact order given of James, chapter 1. Nobody disagrees sin and the curse entered by one transgression, but that does not necessitate guilt spread to all through that act.

The Bible does NOT say "many were made sinners". Thats a false doctrine, plain and simple! James 1:15 gives the unquestioned, literal account in plain wording how one dies spiritually. No argument can be made against it without completely butchering the Word of God.

 

Actually, scripture does say "many were made sinners", but it cannot possibly mean that sin is uncondtionally imputed to all men because of Adam.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If this verse is saying that all men were unconditionally made sinners because of Adam's one sin, then the second half of this verse MUST teach that all men were unconditionally made righteous because of Jesus's obedience. This would teach universalism, and therefore cannot possibly be the correct explanation.

The correct explanation is that Adam's sin set a legal precedent. For those who sin like Adam did, death passes upon them, they are condemned as sinners. Jesus also set a legal precedent, for those who believe on Jesus, as Jesus believed on his Father, righteousness is imputed to them. This is CONDITIONAL.

 

This may be some heavy reading, but the 17th Century theologian, Robert Shaw, offered an excellent treatise on the doctrine of original sin. I quote it here for your reading pleasure in two parts:

Part I of II

 

Part II of II

 

Dude, if you can't speak for yourself, stay out of the conversation. Nobody is going to read a long article like that, and if they were, a link only would be sufficient.

I don't need to read a word of that to know you will pick a Reformed theologian with a Reformed view. That proves nothing.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The scriptures warn about folks who will heap or gather to themselves teachers who will tell them what they want to hear.

I know Original Sin is false because God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, and that every man shall die for his own sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

God is not a hypocrite who breaks his own laws, Jesus condemned hypocrites.