Yeah, it goes right over my head. :laugh:
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T - Total Depravity
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Yeah, it goes right over my head. :laugh:
Winman,
it is only you men who suggest such a thing...all the time on BB.
it is only you men who suggest such a thing...all the time on BB.
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No, it is Calvinists themselves such as the article by R.C. Sproul I just showed you.
Winman...at one point i was certified to teach health and phys ed...not reading. Get hooked on phonics...it will help:love2::love2:
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Like I said in another thread, when someone gives you that wide open 3 pointer...
I will try to be nice this time. But don't get used to it.
Israel are not the only ones who the Bible says are blind to the truth.
Surely I do not have to demonstrate this for you.
Inspector Javert
It seems you who read more than most....are for some reason blanking out on some of these quotes...in that you believe them to be Cal's saying that God is the author of sin....a lame charge....
I will assist you to see how this list is as described before...an evil attempt to speak against God and His people. We saw that with the Calvin quote: and we see it here with the misdirected quoting of A.W.Pink-
Somehow this is supposed to suggest this false idea.What it shows is that your friends who pull out a sentence here or there embarrass themselves if anyone looks into their "teaching"
We Go to the Sovereignty of God;
AW PINK had already answered the question head on....right here-
Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that His decree might be carried out. No; “God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth He any man” ( James 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember His command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was He the Author of Adam’s sin, and at no point was Adam’s responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the “manifold wisdom of God”, in devising a way whereby His eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of His creatures be preserved intact.
So any attempt by you or anyone else to suggest what you think AWPINK was teaching, or meant different and opposite to what he clearly did say...is to be a contentious instigator. You made the charge that I was obfuscating....when in reality it is you and others instigating error
from;-http://thesaurus.com/browse/instigating
To instigate-influence,provoke;
bring about ,foment, incite ,inflame, initiate ,kindle, plot ,prompt ,spur
whip up ,actuate ,encourage ,goad ,hint ,impel ,insinuate ,move .needle,persuade ,plan
raise ,rouse ,scheme ,start,stimulate ,suggest ,urge ,add fuel
egg on ,fire up,make waves ,rabble-rouse
Pink goes on....
Again; God commands us to be perfectly holy in this life ( Matthew 5:48), because this is right in the nature of things, but He has decreed that no man shall be perfectly holy in this life, because this is best all things considered that none shall be perfectly holy (experimentally) before they leave this world. Holiness is one thing, the taking place of holiness is another; so, sin is one thing, the taking place of sin is another. When God requires holiness His preceptive or revealed will respects the nature or moral excellence of holiness; but when He decrees that holiness shall not take place (fully and perfectly) His secret or decretive will respects only the event of it not taking place. So, again, when He forbids sin, His preceptive or revealed will respects only the nature or moral evil of sin; but when He decrees that sin shall take place, His secret will respects only its actual occurrence to serve His good purpose. Thus the secret and revealed will of God respect entirely different objects.
God’s will of decree is not His will in the same sense as His will of command is. Therefore, there is no difficulty in supposing that one may be contrary to the other. His will, in both senses, is His inclination. Everything that concerns His revealed will is perfectly agreeable to His nature, as when He commands love, obedience, and service from His creatures. But that which concerns His secret will has in view His ultimate end, that to which all things are now working. Thus, He decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, though His own holy nature hates all sin with infinite abhorrence, yet, because it is one of the means by which His appointed end is to be reached He suffered it to enter. God’s revealed will is the measure of our responsibility and the determiner of our duty. With God’s secret will we have nothing to do: that is His concern. But, God knowing that we should fail to perfectly do His revealed will ordered His eternal counsels accordingly, and these eternal counsels, which make up His secret will, though unknown to us are, though unconsciously, fulfilled in and through us.
[sorry ITL...but if you stay lazy and do not want to read...you will remain in your error....]
He goes on....
To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, and that He foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded His dominions against His will, and that its exercise is outside His jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be His omnipotency? No; to recognize that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that He is the Governor of sin: His will determines its exercise, His power regulates its bounds ( Psalm 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of His creatures, but He is its Master, by which we mean God’s management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which His hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.
Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet He has, for His own wise ends, ordained His creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously over-ruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it?
So for you or any other person to insinuate that Pink taught such a lie will not stand.That is why I did not address this nonsense to begin with...all of team jihad is so desperate to comb through page after page of reformed writers...not with a view to LEARN...but rather to RESIST..
This was the error of the religious in Jesus day....
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Do i have to hold your hand ...and walk you through the other errors also? or can you do your own homework????:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
It seems you who read more than most....are for some reason blanking out on some of these quotes...in that you believe them to be Cal's saying that God is the author of sin....a lame charge....
I will assist you to see how this list is as described before...an evil attempt to speak against God and His people. We saw that with the Calvin quote: and we see it here with the misdirected quoting of A.W.Pink-
Somehow this is supposed to suggest this false idea.What it shows is that your friends who pull out a sentence here or there embarrass themselves if anyone looks into their "teaching"
We Go to the Sovereignty of God;
AW PINK had already answered the question head on....right here-
Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that His decree might be carried out. No; “God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth He any man” ( James 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember His command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was He the Author of Adam’s sin, and at no point was Adam’s responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the “manifold wisdom of God”, in devising a way whereby His eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of His creatures be preserved intact.
So any attempt by you or anyone else to suggest what you think AWPINK was teaching, or meant different and opposite to what he clearly did say...is to be a contentious instigator. You made the charge that I was obfuscating....when in reality it is you and others instigating error
from;-http://thesaurus.com/browse/instigating
To instigate-influence,provoke;
bring about ,foment, incite ,inflame, initiate ,kindle, plot ,prompt ,spur
whip up ,actuate ,encourage ,goad ,hint ,impel ,insinuate ,move .needle,persuade ,plan
raise ,rouse ,scheme ,start,stimulate ,suggest ,urge ,add fuel
egg on ,fire up,make waves ,rabble-rouse
Pink goes on....
Again; God commands us to be perfectly holy in this life ( Matthew 5:48), because this is right in the nature of things, but He has decreed that no man shall be perfectly holy in this life, because this is best all things considered that none shall be perfectly holy (experimentally) before they leave this world. Holiness is one thing, the taking place of holiness is another; so, sin is one thing, the taking place of sin is another. When God requires holiness His preceptive or revealed will respects the nature or moral excellence of holiness; but when He decrees that holiness shall not take place (fully and perfectly) His secret or decretive will respects only the event of it not taking place. So, again, when He forbids sin, His preceptive or revealed will respects only the nature or moral evil of sin; but when He decrees that sin shall take place, His secret will respects only its actual occurrence to serve His good purpose. Thus the secret and revealed will of God respect entirely different objects.
God’s will of decree is not His will in the same sense as His will of command is. Therefore, there is no difficulty in supposing that one may be contrary to the other. His will, in both senses, is His inclination. Everything that concerns His revealed will is perfectly agreeable to His nature, as when He commands love, obedience, and service from His creatures. But that which concerns His secret will has in view His ultimate end, that to which all things are now working. Thus, He decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, though His own holy nature hates all sin with infinite abhorrence, yet, because it is one of the means by which His appointed end is to be reached He suffered it to enter. God’s revealed will is the measure of our responsibility and the determiner of our duty. With God’s secret will we have nothing to do: that is His concern. But, God knowing that we should fail to perfectly do His revealed will ordered His eternal counsels accordingly, and these eternal counsels, which make up His secret will, though unknown to us are, though unconsciously, fulfilled in and through us.
[sorry ITL...but if you stay lazy and do not want to read...you will remain in your error....]
He goes on....
To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into His universe, and that He foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded His dominions against His will, and that its exercise is outside His jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be His omnipotency? No; to recognize that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that He is the Governor of sin: His will determines its exercise, His power regulates its bounds ( Psalm 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of His creatures, but He is its Master, by which we mean God’s management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which His hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.
Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet He has, for His own wise ends, ordained His creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously over-ruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it?
So for you or any other person to insinuate that Pink taught such a lie will not stand.That is why I did not address this nonsense to begin with...all of team jihad is so desperate to comb through page after page of reformed writers...not with a view to LEARN...but rather to RESIST..
This was the error of the religious in Jesus day....
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Do i have to hold your hand ...and walk you through the other errors also? or can you do your own homework????:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
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here is another supposed gem;
This is simply stating the obvious...nothing can exist apart from God's decree...
For the reading comprehension challenged....
Nothing that exists......can exist .....without God having purposed for it to exist....Nothing surprises God....Nothing is outside His control....
If anything exists without God knowing of it,allowing it, or controlling it....God would cease to be God as biblically revealed.
This whole list is bogus from start to finish!!!
This is simply stating the obvious...nothing can exist apart from God's decree...
For the reading comprehension challenged....
Nothing that exists......can exist .....without God having purposed for it to exist....Nothing surprises God....Nothing is outside His control....
If anything exists without God knowing of it,allowing it, or controlling it....God would cease to be God as biblically revealed.
This whole list is bogus from start to finish!!!
Nothing wrong with this if properly unsderstood:
QUOTE]“God controls everything that is and everything that happens.
There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed –
not even a single thought in the mind of man.
Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power.
Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions,
evil could never have started without God’s active decree,
and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will.
God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory,
although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”([13] Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )[/QUOTE]
What do you see as problematic here???Get serious!
QUOTE]“God controls everything that is and everything that happens.
There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed –
not even a single thought in the mind of man.
Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power.
Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions,
evil could never have started without God’s active decree,
and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will.
God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory,
although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”([13] Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )[/QUOTE]
What do you see as problematic here???Get serious!
Winman
I look to scripture first...if Calvin saw the same things and much more that is okay with me...
Evil exists
it cannot exist as out side of God's control
because God controls evil does not mean he is the author of it
everyone has a theology dealing with evil
God has ordained to use the evil acts of evil men...for His own purpose and Glory..the centerpiece being the cross....
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Winman...All this time I was told that Luke wrote Acts...I did not know it was Calvin
It must have been right...look at the words used in vs 23....
determinate counsel
foreknowledge
being used of the wicked men.....Calvin must have wrote it.....or wait-
Is it just possible that Luke guided by the Spirit...wrote this book and used these very calvinistic terms.....and Augustine,and Calvin, and Owen, and Knox, and Manton, and Keach, and Dagg, and millions of others have read the same language and verses and seen them the same way????
Who would have thought:laugh:
I look to scripture first...if Calvin saw the same things and much more that is okay with me...
Evil exists
it cannot exist as out side of God's control
because God controls evil does not mean he is the author of it
everyone has a theology dealing with evil
God has ordained to use the evil acts of evil men...for His own purpose and Glory..the centerpiece being the cross....
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Winman...All this time I was told that Luke wrote Acts...I did not know it was Calvin
It must have been right...look at the words used in vs 23....
determinate counsel
foreknowledge
being used of the wicked men.....Calvin must have wrote it.....or wait-
Is it just possible that Luke guided by the Spirit...wrote this book and used these very calvinistic terms.....and Augustine,and Calvin, and Owen, and Knox, and Manton, and Keach, and Dagg, and millions of others have read the same language and verses and seen them the same way????
Who would have thought:laugh:
Winman
I look to scripture first...if Calvin saw the same things and much more that is okay with me...
Evil exists
it cannot exist as out side of God's control
because God controls evil does not mean he is the author of it
everyone has a theology dealing with evil
God has ordained to use the evil acts of evil men...for His own purpose and Glory..the centerpiece being the cross....
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Winman...All this time I was told that Luke wrote Acts...I did not know it was Calvin
It must have been right...look at the words used in vs 23....
determinate counsel
foreknowledge
being used of the wicked men.....Calvin must have wrote it.....or wait-
Is it just possible that Luke guided by the Spirit...wrote this book and used these very calvinistic terms.....and Augustine,and Calvin, and Owen, and Knox, and Manton, and Keach, and Dagg, and millions of others have read the same language and verses and seen them the same way????
Who would have thought:laugh:
You cannot discern scripture, it does not say one word about God causing men to take Jesus and kill him. Read again...
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
This verse says Jesus was DELIVERED by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. Jesus allowed himself to be taken and crucified. If he had wanted, he could have called on his Father who would have sent more than 12 legions of angels to save him out of their hands, but he willingly allowed himself to be taken so that he could be crucified for our sins.
God NEVER so much as tempts any man to sin, men do that of their own free will and lusts. God did know in his foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus, and that the scribes and priests would conspire to put him to death.
Calvin himself made God the author of evil, he said the devil and sinners could not even conceive of sin unless God had commanded it. And you seem to have no problem with this, you say this is OK with you. This is serious error.
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convicted1
Guest
T- Total Depravity......
Here's two of our Articles of Faith and what they believe about Total Depravity:
Now, they in this association believe like I used to in that we were born in a state of grace until the time came that we knew what we did was wrong...iow, knowingly and willingly did commit sin, and then God withdrew His grace from us and we were in need of saving.
Now, I am hoping to write about this "snippet" I am about to post on here. We, as humans, are seen by God through one of two Adam's, either Adam, the first Adam, of Jesus Christ, the last Adam. Now, if God sees us through the first Adam, even at birth, He sees us in a fallen state. We are in the image of God through Adam, yet, a marred image, seeing that Adam fell before he and Eve ever had their first child. In Genesis 5, it mentions that Seth was made in the image and likeness of Adam, so Seth was a marred image of God, because sin was saturated in him. We who came after Adam, are in this very same image. But it goes further than that. The fall caused us to be spiritually dead, as sheep gone astray via Adam's fall. Those who God chose before the foundation of the earth, were always His sheep. That is why it states we are sheep having gone astray. God sent His Son to redeem His Sheep, and will do everything necessary to bring them back into the fold. The goats were never part of the plan of salvation, and were left in their fallen state through Adam.
This is why the atonement Christ made didn't make one of us "savable" with the posibility of either accepting/rejecting Him, but rather, saved us, His sheep, being our Surety. If Christ died for everyone without exception, then He is the biggest failure that ever stepped foot on planet earth, seeing that a myriad of people died, are dying, and will die, in their sins.
We are unable to come to Him except we first be drawn...that's Total Depravity 101. We have no desire to come to Him, left to our own devices....that's Total Depravity 101.
Here's two of our Articles of Faith and what they believe about Total Depravity:
Now, they in this association believe like I used to in that we were born in a state of grace until the time came that we knew what we did was wrong...iow, knowingly and willingly did commit sin, and then God withdrew His grace from us and we were in need of saving.
Now, I am hoping to write about this "snippet" I am about to post on here. We, as humans, are seen by God through one of two Adam's, either Adam, the first Adam, of Jesus Christ, the last Adam. Now, if God sees us through the first Adam, even at birth, He sees us in a fallen state. We are in the image of God through Adam, yet, a marred image, seeing that Adam fell before he and Eve ever had their first child. In Genesis 5, it mentions that Seth was made in the image and likeness of Adam, so Seth was a marred image of God, because sin was saturated in him. We who came after Adam, are in this very same image. But it goes further than that. The fall caused us to be spiritually dead, as sheep gone astray via Adam's fall. Those who God chose before the foundation of the earth, were always His sheep. That is why it states we are sheep having gone astray. God sent His Son to redeem His Sheep, and will do everything necessary to bring them back into the fold. The goats were never part of the plan of salvation, and were left in their fallen state through Adam.
This is why the atonement Christ made didn't make one of us "savable" with the posibility of either accepting/rejecting Him, but rather, saved us, His sheep, being our Surety. If Christ died for everyone without exception, then He is the biggest failure that ever stepped foot on planet earth, seeing that a myriad of people died, are dying, and will die, in their sins.
We are unable to come to Him except we first be drawn...that's Total Depravity 101. We have no desire to come to Him, left to our own devices....that's Total Depravity 101.
I can't believe you are buying this stuff now Willis.
God is not unjust, God does not impute one man's sins to another.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
God commanded that "every man" be put to death for his "own sin". God does not impute one man's sins to another.
Do all men die as a consequence of Adam's sin? YES, and this is a good thing, God separated man from the tree of life so that he would not live for eternity in a sinful state.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
God drove man out of the garden of Eden and separated him from the tree of life so that man does not live for eternity in a sinful state. It is physical death and the judgment afterward that is man's greatest incentive to repent of sin and turn to God. So, in this sense physical death is a good thing.
Ecc 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.
Solomon said the wise man will take the day of death seriously, he will lay it to his heart. It is death that is our greatest incentive to repent from sin and turn to God.
But God does not charge or impute the sins of any father (including Adam) to his sons.
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
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convicted1
Guest
Brother, God sees us through either the first or last Adam. To be born spiritually alive means we would have to be born with Christ's righteousness already imputed/accounted to us already. Then when we would knowingly sin He would withdraw His righteousness from us. I can find nowhere in the bible where He does this. We are born in the image and likeness of the first Adam, which is a marred image of God due to sin. When we then are imputed/accounted with Christ's righteousness, He then sees us through the last Adam, Jesus Christ.
1. Where does the Bible say we are only seen through the 2 Adam's? That's merely reformed jargon.
2. I agree the Bible doesn't say anything about Christ's righteousness being applied at birth. That is how you are viewing it through augustinianism.
3. Is death the ending of life or not?
4. Being born under the curse does not make one guilty of sin, nor does having a sin nature make you guilty. Plucking a couple poetic Psalms from the Bible does not prove augustinianism.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Convicted was right in one sense...that his previous view was incorrect that an infant had some automatic "grace":
That is not true........
But, that doesn't render a new-born damned; it renders a new-born as one who knows yet no sin and is in no need of grace. Such a being is spoken of: as being one who "needs no repentance".
The alternative and Scriptural view to both errors, was that the Augustinian model of mankind being Originally Guilty of sin is false.
A newborn is NEITHER an automatic recipient of "grace"
NOR are they an automatic partaker in Adam's guilt..........that's Augustinianism.
All men who perish do so for their OWN sins, not Adam's.....all who receive God's grace are shown mercy for their OWN sins too. We may inherit a propensity to sin from Adam, we inherit physical death from Adam...we may inherit a will which is pre-disposed inescapably to sin from Adam. We may inherit a nature and an environment which will necessarily lead us towards ultimate sin.....but we aren't GUILTY of anything from Adam any more than we were born SAVED from anything Christ did.
Willis you were choosing between two false views, based upon a flawed premise. Given a choice between the two, I chose to believe as you now do as well. But, it's the long held premise from which both erroneous views spring that is the source of error.
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