Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
So, who, if not God, decided that Adam's choice, as the head of humanity, would result in all men being born unable to willingly respond to God's very own appeals to be reconciled from that fallen condition?
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T - Total Depravity
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Webdog, don't you know its not 'magical' if God is in control of it? When God decides for us to sin then its our 'free choice,' but if we decide that for ourselves, then it's 'magical.' Try to keep up.:laugh:
Skan,
This is not something a Cal would say or believe.....you say God is the author of sin with this unfortunate comment.
This is not something a Cal would say or believe.....you say God is the author of sin with this unfortunate comment.
It is your irrationality that is in need of correction WD.
You believe in libertarian free will --the power of contrary choice. But the unregenerate person is "free" only with respect to their natural desires. Without the supernatural intervention of the Lord they can choose alright. However, their choices are always on the wrong side of the ledger --they oppose God at every turn. They are free to sin --but they are not free to turn to God. The Lord has to open their eyes.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Ummm......yes they very much would.:The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted(Calvin, John. Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)
But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.[/I]
(Calvin, John. Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172)
“God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”[/I]([13] Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )
“Those who see that it is impossible to altogether disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil nevertheless try to distance God from evil by saying that God merely “permits” evil, and that he does not cause any of it. However, since Scripture itself states that God actively decrees everything, and that nothing can happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something – nothing happens by God’s mere permission
(Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )
So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”[/I]
(Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), )
End Part 1:
(See Pt. 2 for more refreshing examples of Calvinists in moments of intellectual honesty and logical consistency)
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
Part 2:
God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.
(Sproul, R.C. Jr. Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54)
Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass)
(Palmer, Edwin. H. The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25)
I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” .... “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin
(Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18)
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.
(Pink, A.W. The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162)
God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.
(Sproul, R.C. Jr. Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54)
Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass)
(Palmer, Edwin. H. The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25)
I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” .... “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin
(Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18)
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.
(Pink, A.W. The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162)
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Instead of telling me what i believe, why not ask. I don't believe I can jump to the moon. Libertarian free will teaches I can will just that. Contra causal free will is different.
Jesus disagrees with your compatibilism in Matt. 7:9
No not really.....lol.....there is no" theology in tension"...here...lol
can a dead man will himself to come back alive again though?
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Please tell me what you are "LOL" about Icon.....................???What is it precisely?
I'll repeat these quotes again:
Ummm......yes they very much would.:
The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted(Calvin, John. Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)
But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.
(Calvin, John. Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172)
“God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”([13] Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )
“Those who see that it is impossible to altogether disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil nevertheless try to distance God from evil by saying that God merely “permits” evil, and that he does not cause any of it. However, since Scripture itself states that God actively decrees everything, and that nothing can happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something – nothing happens by God’s mere permission
(Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )
So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.”
(Piper, John. Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), )
End Part 1:
(See Pt. 2 for more refreshing examples of Calvinists in moments of intellectual honesty and logical consistency)
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Part 2:
God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.
(Sproul, R.C. Jr. Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54)
Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass)
(Palmer, Edwin. H. The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25)
I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” .... “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin
(Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18)
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.
(Pink, A.W. The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162)
God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.
(Sproul, R.C. Jr. Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54)
Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass)
(Palmer, Edwin. H. The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25)
I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” .... “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin
(Clark, Gordan. Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18)
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.
(Pink, A.W. The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162)
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Who said anything about "Theology in tension"???? I don't...........YOU DO...That's lying Calvinist for "Our Theology contradicts itself.." MINE DOESN'T!!!..My Theology isn't "In Tension".......yours is.
(The guiltly flee when none pursue, but the righteous are bold as a lion)..........I said NOTHING about a "Theology in tension"......YOU did....Your Theology IS in "tension"....mine isn't....
Yours is self-defeating and false. And you don't even know how to defend it.
I know you said nothing about it....but that anti cal blog was where I found these "quotes"from. They were not your own quotes....I cut and paste quite often...as Thomas and winman will testify to....but I give the address when I do. So before you shoot off your mouth about LYING....why not own up to your foul deed...or do you follow in the footsteps of your Hero....ACH....lol..That is why I can LOL...my friend...nice try.
I found your "quotes"...here-
http://atheologyintension.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/2376/
here is your friends intro...
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I am not sure what the problem is, at the end of each quote the author of that quote was listed, the book from which the quote was taken was listed, and the page number was listed.
That there are "anti" Calvinist and Arminian articles on the internet is no secret.
So, what is the problem? The quotes from Calvinists are either what they said or not. You can find many of these quotes from multiple sources. I copied and googled one of Sproul's quotes, and found even more quotes showing Calvinists making God the author of sin...
How God can "create" sin as R.C. Sproul said, and not be the author of sin is beyond me.
http://www.charlottetownbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Christ_origin-of-sin.pdf
That there are "anti" Calvinist and Arminian articles on the internet is no secret.
So, what is the problem? The quotes from Calvinists are either what they said or not. You can find many of these quotes from multiple sources. I copied and googled one of Sproul's quotes, and found even more quotes showing Calvinists making God the author of sin...
A. W. Pink said:
R.C. Sproul said:
How God can "create" sin as R.C. Sproul said, and not be the author of sin is beyond me.
http://www.charlottetownbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Christ_origin-of-sin.pdf
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
And what is so crazy about this is that the bible isn't silent about this question. James clearly teaches that God doesn't even tempt men to evil, yet some might suggest that God determined the desires which cause men to fall into temptation.
Physically, of course not. Spiritual death is not physical death.
Winman
The problem is his false reference to lying....when he was not quite forth coming....
There is a network of evil that read to attack...not understand....they read and feed off each other.
Each of the quotes get lifted out of where they were from.....if the original article,or writing is posted....9 times out of 10...a correct reading of the passage in context answers the objector.....
I do not even mind if the site or others like it are used if referenced....but used in this way indicates the person does not really want an answer at all.
I can look up calvins quotes and read the context.....but even when this exact thing has been done....it does not change anything unless the person wants a sincere answer....:thumbs:
Yes...at this point in time it is:thumbs:
The problem is his false reference to lying....when he was not quite forth coming....
There is a network of evil that read to attack...not understand....they read and feed off each other.
What you find is persons who do not read well....who twist or leave out what the writer was getting at....which is a 9th commandment violation.
Each of the quotes get lifted out of where they were from.....if the original article,or writing is posted....9 times out of 10...a correct reading of the passage in context answers the objector.....
I do not even mind if the site or others like it are used if referenced....but used in this way indicates the person does not really want an answer at all.
I can look up calvins quotes and read the context.....but even when this exact thing has been done....it does not change anything unless the person wants a sincere answer....:thumbs:
Yes...at this point in time it is:thumbs:
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Actually, I found those from another source initially....so what?? I don't pretend to have compiled them myself. I got it from a different cite, but they're real quotes cited from real Calvinist sources which are all cited. Point being, it disproves your assertion that: "No Calvinist believes or would say such a thing" (or however you phrased it). Point is, they absolutely would, and they do.
What's your point Icon? Do you deny that those are very real Calvinist Theologians completely admitting what you refuse to admit about your own theology? you are obfuscating, Icon....it wouldn't matter if those quotes were initially found on a site called "Imanilliteratearminianwhodoesntknowwhathestalkingabout.com"......the CONTENT OF THE CITED QUOTES is the point, and you are running from them because you have no argument.
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