Christian Hymns and Songs

[BobRyan]

Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

Shown above how it is not challenged by Matt 7 at all, yet rather supported.

You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace". Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

So then the question remains -

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

And how do you get around the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" claim of Christ?

And the Romans 11 statement that those who "Stand only by their faith" are to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Is this where you claim the Bible re-invents sanctification as being the case of the lost seeking justification - since the saved saints can be at risk in this way?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?



You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace".

in Christ,

Bob

It took no effort at all, Jesus made it very clear - "I NEVER KNEW YOU". It doesn't get any clearer than that. Every Christian KNOWS Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ KNOWS them (John 10).

Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

No therefore at all. It is you who attempted to escape from my question on Galatians 5 by referencing Matt 7. My question - "Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me???" . At which you attempted to escape the question by running to other scriptures, Matt 7 being one of them, which was easily proven that these in Matt 7 were NEVER saved.

So then the question remains -

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

It does not remain, Matt 7 has been disproven as a reference for a "Fallen from Grace" supporter of Galatians 5. Those spoken of in Matt 7 have not known Grace. What remains is my question to you unanswered -

Steaver - "Now I am a "Faith Alone", "Justified by Grace Alone" born-again Christian, so explain how this "fallen from grace" can apply to me???"

Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone as these false teachers proclaimed.

Question is, does it include you BobRyan? Are you justified by Grace Alone BobRyan? Or are you a "whosoever"?

 

[BobRyan]

Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone

Rabbit trail?

My argument has never been that unless Steaver is severed from Christ and fallen from grace - then OSAS is valid or ... Gal 5:2-4 is not to be considered.

We both knew that right?

Not sure why you keep coming back with "yes but I have not fallen from Grace" as if this proves something in favor of ignoring this key Bible doctrine that there have indeed been those who have "fallen from Grace" and have been "Severed FROM Christ".

So again - how does your defense of OSAS solve that problem other than your claim that you yourself have not fallen from Grace?

This is the easy part - right??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace"

. Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

So then the question remains -

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

these in Matt 7 were NEVER saved.


It (the question posed) does not remain, Matt 7 has been disproven as a reference for a "Fallen from Grace" supporter of Galatians 5.

The point is not that Matt 7 is a case of Gal 5. The point is that once you admit that Matt 7 is a "Never joined to Christ so nothing to be severed from" - as you have done. THEN the "Severed from Christ" case of Gal 5 is now explicitly debunking OSAS.

How do you solve the problem now that you have cut the only exit you had for Gal 5?

(You see? the question remains).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Rabbit trail?

My argument has never been that unless Steaver is severed from Christ and fallen from grace - then OSAS is valid or ... Gal 5:2-4 is not to be considered.

We both knew that right?

Not sure why you keep coming back with "yes but I have not fallen from Grace" as if this proves something in favor of ignoring this key Bible doctrine that there have indeed been those who have "fallen from Grace" and have been "Severed FROM Christ".

So again - how does your defense of OSAS solve that problem other than your claim that you yourself have not fallen from Grace?

This is the easy part - right??

in Christ,

Bob

Oh Bob, Bob, Bob, why the straw man? When did I ever say "yes but I have not fallen from Grace". Answer is - No where.

Now you have created yourself quite a conundrum for yourself.

Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone as these false teachers proclaimed.

Question is, does it include you BobRyan? Are you justified by Grace Alone BobRyan? Or are you a "whosoever"?

No more straw men, no ore rabbit trials, answer the question.

 

[steaver]

How do you solve the problem now that you have cut the only exit you had for Gal 5?

(You see? the question remains).

in Christ,

Bob

The question -

Not everyone who "says" Lord Lord... who "Says justified by grace alone" will enter the kingdom of heaven - Matt 7.

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?

There is nothing to get around, because there is no such thing as............... "Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above. (i.e. Matt 7)

It is NOT challenged from Matt 7, so NEXT question!

 

[BobRyan]

The all-important "not" was missing in my post above.

You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace"

.Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

So then the question remains -

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the scripture above.

How do you get around that?



The point is not that Matt 7 is not a case of Gal 5. The point is that once you admit that Matt 7 is a "Never joined to Christ so nothing to be severed from" - as you have done.

THEN the "Severed from Christ" case of Gal 5 is now explicitly debunking OSAS.

How do you solve the problem now that you have cut the only exit you had for Gal 5?

(You see? the question remains).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Oh Bob, Bob, Bob, why the straw man? When did I ever say "yes but I have not fallen from Grace".

Answer: When addressing the Gal 5 "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" text so contrary to OSAS your response was that Gal 5 does not apply "to you"...

Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me,

Inexplicably this is all you provide for a way that OSAS might survive "Fallen from GRACE" and "SEVERED from Christ".

As if a misdirection or sidestep will do the job. But all you have done is claim that you don't think you are severed from Christ as those were in Gal 5.

However careful review of my argument never shows it to say "OSAS is not true and proof is that Steaver is severed from Christ the way that those in Gal 5:4 were".

Surely we both see that by now.

So... no more games??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The all-important "not" was missing in my post above.

"The point is not that Matt 7 is not a case of Gal 5. The point is that once you admit that Matt 7 is a "Never joined to Christ so nothing to be severed from" - as you have done.

THEN the "Severed from Christ" case of Gal 5 is now explicitly debunking OSAS.

How do you solve the problem now that you have cut the only exit you had for Gal 5?"



(You see? the question remains).

in Christ,

Bob

Why don't you see? You brought up Matt 7, which has nothing to do with Gal 5. I need no exit for Gal 5. Who is the one dodging my question on what Gal 5 says??

But we both know this right?? As I'm sure anyone watching can see.

Answer: When addressing the Gal 5 "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" text so contrary to OSAS your response was that Gal 5 does not apply "to you"...

1) that it is contrary to OSAS is a presupposition on your part - so far unsupported by the text in question.

2) I did and do claim it does not apply to me - still awaiting your answer as whether it applies to you?

Steaver - "Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law". Now that does not include me,"....

Bob - Inexplicably this is all you provide for a way that OSAS might survive "Fallen from GRACE" and "SEVERED from Christ".


in Christ,

Bob

So me including the full context of the very text in question is inexplicable for you?? Do you wish to continue this cherry picking of words out of context or are you ready to deal with your problem?

As if a misdirection or sidestep will do the job. But all you have done is claim that you don't think you are severed from Christ as those were in Gal 5.

However careful review of my argument never shows it to say "OSAS is not true and proof is that Steaver is severed from Christ the way that those in Gal 5:4 were".

Surely we both see that by now.

So... no more games??

I believe it is BobRyan who is misdirecting "fallen from grace" away from "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Yes, Surely we both see this now...So no more games brother...answer my question which was asked several post ago now....

Now you have created yourself quite a conundrum for yourself.

Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me, I do not want to be justified by the law nor do I think the law justifies anyone as these false teachers proclaimed.

Question is, does it include you BobRyan? Are you justified by Grace Alone BobRyan? Or are you a "whosoever"?

No more straw men, no ore rabbit trials, answer the question.

 

[evenifigoalone]

East to West, by Casting Crowns:

Here I am, Lord, and I'm drowning in your sea of forgetfulness
The chains of yesterday surround me
I yearn for peace and rest
I don't want to end up where You found me
And it echoes in my mind, keeps me awake tonight
I know You've cast my sin as far as the east is from the west
And I stand before You now as though I've never sinned
But today I feel like I'm just one mistake away from You leaving me this way

Jesus, can You show me just how far the east is from the west
'cause I can't bear to see the man I've been come rising up in me again
In the arms of Your mercy I find rest
'cause You know just how far the east is from the west
From one scarred hand to the other

I start the day, the war begins, endless reminding of my sin
Time and time again Your truth is drowned out by the storm I'm in
Today I feel like I'm just one mistake away from You leaving me this way

I know You've washed me white, turned my darkness into light
I need Your peace to get me through, to get me through this night
I can't live by what I feel, but by the truth Your word reveals
I'm not holding on to You, but You're holding on to me
You're holding on to me

Jesus, You know just how far the east is from the west
I don't have to see the man I've been come rising up in me again
In the arms of Your mercy I find rest
'cause You know just how far the east is from the west
From one scarred hand to the other
One scarred hand to the other
From one scarred hand to the other

 

[evenifigoalone]

Once and for All, by Disciple:

All alone
In a place I can't remember
Lost control
Forgot what I was chasing after
The lies I've tried to justify
Have kept me up at night
I'm done trying to hide my lies
Away from Mercy's eyes

Every little secret that I kept in
Locked inside my heart
Every single regret, every misstep
That kept me in the dark
But now I stand face to face
With the light of Your Grace
And all the weight of all my shame begins to fall
Once and for all
Once and for all

This is a war,
I'm done with getting over
The weight is more
Then I was ever meant to shoulder
Only You can save this life
So I come clean tonight

Every little secret that I kept in
Locked inside my heart
Every single regret, every misstep
That kept me in the dark
But now I stand face to face
With the light of Your Grace
And all the weight of all my shame begins to fall
Once and for all
Once and for all

You made right what I made wrong
Once and for all
You put an end to who I was
Once and for all
All the shame that’s in my soul
Met Your Grace and is no more

Every little secret that I kept in
Locked inside my heart
Every single regret, every misstep
That kept me in the dark
But now I stand face to face
With the light of Your Grace
And all the weight of all my shame begins to fall
Once and for all
Once and for all

 

[steaver]

Once and for All, by Disciple:

My son likes Disciple, not my style of music though, it doesn't move my spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Answer: When addressing the Gal 5 "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" text so contrary to OSAS your response was that Gal 5 does not apply "to you"...

Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me,

Inexplicably this is all you provide for a way that OSAS might survive "Fallen from GRACE" and "SEVERED from Christ".

As if a misdirection or sidestep will do the job. But all you have done is claim that you don't think you are severed from Christ as those were in Gal 5.

However careful review of my argument never shows it to say "OSAS is not true and proof is that Steaver is severed from Christ the way that those in Gal 5:4 were".

Surely we both see that by now.

2) I did and do claim it does not apply to me - still awaiting your answer as whether it applies to you?

So me including the full context of the very text in question is inexplicable for you?? Do you wish to continue this cherry picking of words

You keep arguing that you are not one of those Severed from Christ.

I keep pointing out that this statement about Gal 5:4 debunking OSAS by showing the existence of the very group OSAS says does not exist - those joined to Christ that are then SEVERED FROM Christ, and those under GRACE that are then "FALLEN FROM" Grace.

You keep dancing around that one is if the OSAS problem is "solved" if we can just maintain that Steaver himself has not fallen from Grace.

How "instructive" -

So now - no more games? Please just respond to the point from Gal 5:4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You just tried to argue that Matt 7 is about the "never joined to Christ" and the "never under grace".

Therefore you have left yourself with no escape for Gal 5:4 speaking of those who were joined to Christ being "Severed from Christ" and those who were under grace (saved by grace through faith) being "Fallen from Grace".

So then the question remains -

Your view that one who is joined to Christ - who is fully under Grace - cannot be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" -- is directly challenged by the (Gal 5:4) scripture above.

How do you get around that?

And how do you get around the Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" claim of Christ?

And the Romans 11 statement that those who "Stand only by their faith" are to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Is this where you claim the Bible re-invents sanctification as being the case of the lost seeking justification - since the saved saints can be at risk in this way?

It took no effort at all, Jesus made it very clear - "I NEVER KNEW YOU". It doesn't get any clearer than that.

As already noted above - that is your use of Matt 7. Which leaves you with no place to go in the case of Gal 5:4 where they were joined to Christ and then SEVERED FROM Christ. Where they were under GRACE and then FALLEN FROM Grace.

You can't use Matt 7 in Gal 5:4 - because you already admit that Matt 7 is only about those who were NEVER Joined to Christ, never Under Grace.

The obvious question is thus "asked again".

Those spoken of in Matt 7 have not known Grace.

True - which leaves you no place to go in Gal 5:4 except to admit that OSAS has been fully debunked by scripture.

Where we DO see the case of those who have been "SEVERED FROM Christ and FALLEN FROM Grace".

How do you imagine that OSAS would survive such a devastating anti-OSAS text?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I keep pointing out that this statement about Gal 5:4 debunking OSAS by showing the existence of the very group OSAS says does not exist - those joined to Christ that are then SEVERED FROM Christ, and those under GRACE that are then "FALLEN FROM" Grace.

You keep dancing around that one is if the OSAS problem is "solved" if we can just maintain that Steaver himself has not fallen from Grace.

How "instructive" -

So now - no more games? Please just respond to the point from Gal 5:4.

in Christ,

Bob

So let's try to make this very simple for the reader to understand. BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that.........

'Any born-again Christian who believes they are justified by the law has become lost again'.

Is this a fair and accurate statement of BobRyan's belief concerning Galatians 5:4??

 

[BobRyan]

So let's try to make this very simple for the reader to understand.

Agreed.

here it is "again".

=========================

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Answer: When addressing the Gal 5 "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" text so contrary to OSAS your response was that Gal 5 does not apply "to you"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steaver
Galatians 5 is speaking to a specific group of people - "whosoever of you are justified by the law".

Now that does not include me,

Inexplicably this is all you provide for a way that OSAS might survive "Fallen from GRACE" and "SEVERED from Christ".

As if a misdirection or sidestep will do the job. But all you have done is claim that you don't think you are severed from Christ as those were in Gal 5.

However careful review of my argument never shows it to say "OSAS is not true and proof is that Steaver is severed from Christ the way that those in Gal 5:4 were".

Surely we both see that by now.

You keep arguing that you are not one of those Severed from Christ.

I keep pointing out that this statement about Gal 5:4 debunking OSAS by showing the existence of the very group OSAS says does not exist - those joined to Christ that are then SEVERED FROM Christ, and those under GRACE that are then "FALLEN FROM" Grace.

You keep dancing around that one "as if" the OSAS problem is "solved" if we can just maintain that Steaver himself has not fallen from Grace.

How "instructive" - b

----------------------------


BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

---------------------------

But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

---------------------------

But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.

in Christ,

Bob

The reason I keep bringing you back to the context of the verse (justification by obeying the law) is to give you opportunity to either address the context of the text or keep repeating the same old presupposition about OSAS.

Either way you will lose the argument. Surely everyone can see your dodging, and most certainly you know the conundrum my question places you in. Tis why you will not answer and deflect to your presupposition on OSAS.

So let's try to make this very simple for the reader to understand. BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that.........

'Any born-again Christian who believes they are justified by the law has become lost again'.

Is this a fair and accurate statement of BobRyan's belief concerning Galatians 5:4??

The context of Galatians 5:4 still remains unanswered by BobRyan.....

 

[BobRyan]

The reason I keep bringing you back to the context of the verse

The reason I keep reminding you that OSAS does not allow for one that is joined to Christ - change such that "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ" is that you keep claiming that OSAS is not challenged by the Bible -and yet Gal 5:4 clearly refutes your speculation in that regard.

BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

---------------------------

But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.

(justification by obeying the law) is to give you opportunity to either address the context of the text

The "context" is that those who were joined to Christ, and under Grace had become "SEVERED FROM" Christ and "Fallen FROM" Grace.

It is nonsensical to argue that OSAS allows for this but "just for Christians that are inclined to become Jews" - as some might be imagining.

OSAS makes no such "provision" for this taking place.

OSAS falls at that point - and no amount of side stepping the point can solve the problem for OSAS.

I think we can all see that by now.

certainly you know the conundrum my question places you in.

That is not true at all. In fact you yourself claim that you have no clue about my own views on it - repeatedly.

I myself simply "imagine" that you are trying to argue that the Bible truth of Rev 14:12 is somehow "condemned" in Gal 5:4 but you don't want to come out and say it- so you keep asking me to help you with that.

It is a diversion on your part that is not solving the problem for OSAS at all.

Since you keep backing away from making your point - who knows??

Your circular reasoning either leaves you with the wild claim that to accept the Gal 5:4 teaching that one CAN become "SEVERED FROM" Christ - is itself proof of being "severed from Christ" because to believe or teach such at hing is supposedly the great evil you think Paul is condemning. Which of course is a circular argument that has Paul condemning himself in Gal 5:4. (No wonder you are so anxious to avoid specifics there). Or you are trying to have the Gal 5:4 Paul - condemn the 1Cor 7:19 and Rev 14:12 parts of the Bible - supposing to your self that if the saints are "keeping the Commandments of God" then they must be evil.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The reason I keep reminding you that OSAS does not allow for one that is joined to Christ - change such that "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ" is that you keep claiming that OSAS is not challenged by the Bible -and yet Gal 5:4 clearly refutes your speculation in that regard.

BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

---------------------------

But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.



The "context" is that those who were joined to Christ, and under Grace had become "SEVERED FROM" Christ and "Fallen FROM" Grace.

It is nonsensical to argue that OSAS allows for this but "just for Christians that are inclined to become Jews" - as some might be imagining.

OSAS makes no such "provision" for this taking place.

OSAS falls at that point - and no amount of side stepping the point can solve the problem for OSAS.

I think we can all see that by now.





That is not true at all. In fact you yourself claim that you have no clue about my own views on it - repeatedly.

I myself simply "imagine" that you are trying to argue that the Bible truth of Rev 14:12 is somehow "condemned" in Gal 5:4 but you don't want to come out and say it- so you keep asking me to help you with that.

It is a diversion on your part that is not solving the problem for OSAS at all.

Since you keep backing away from making your point - who knows??

Your circular reasoning either leaves you with the wild claim that to accept the Gal 5:4 teaching that one CAN become "SEVERED FROM" Christ - is itself proof of being "severed from Christ" because to believe or teach such at hing is supposedly the great evil you think Paul is condemning. Which of course is a circular argument that has Paul condemning himself in Gal 5:4. (No wonder you are so anxious to avoid specifics there). Or you are trying to have the Gal 5:4 Paul - condemn the 1Cor 7:19 and Rev 14:12 parts of the Bible - supposing to your self that if the saints are "keeping the Commandments of God" then they must be evil.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you! I believe you have answered my question for everyone, even in your attempt to avoid it.

So what have we established?

Anyone who points to Galatians 5:4 as support against justified by Faith Alone is claiming - 'Any born-again Christian who believes they are justified by the law has become lost again'.

Thus, the very one who points to Galatians 5:4 as evidence against justified by Grace Alone through Faith Alone has condemned themselves for believing obedience to the law will justify them.

But I'm pretty sure you knew if someone brought up the context of the verse it would be the end of your argument there - your not stupid - just a bit hard headed :love2:. And will you now abandon that verse for your argument?? Doubt it, not yet, your not ready to just let Jesus have all that glory - but I have hope for you raying: I am confident - that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[BobRyan]

The reason I keep reminding you that OSAS does not allow for one that is joined to Christ - change such that "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ" is that you keep claiming that OSAS is not challenged by the Bible -and yet Gal 5:4 clearly refutes your speculation in that regard.

BobRyan believes that Galatians 5:4 is teaching us that someone who is joined to Christ can be "Severed FROM Christ" just like the text says.

Someone who is "UNDER Grace" can "FALL from Grace" and become as the text says "FALLEN FROM Grace".

Not sure how unclear that is to anyone still reading this thread.

And my point is that to say that such a thing can happen to someone who is Joined TO Christ and is UNDER GRACE -- is to completely refute OSAS.

---------------------------

But if you don't mind giving me opportunity to repeat this obvious point a few dozen more times - I will gladly comply with each of your invitations to do so. Because it does not help OSAS to keep pointing out this flaw in the OSAS argument.

As surprising as that idea may be at the moment.



The "context" is that those who were joined to Christ, and under Grace had become "SEVERED FROM" Christ and "Fallen FROM" Grace.

It is nonsensical to argue that OSAS allows for this but "just for Christians that are inclined to become Jews" - as some might be imagining.

OSAS makes no such "provision" for this taking place.

OSAS falls at that point - and no amount of side stepping the point can solve the problem for OSAS.

I think we can all see that by now.

Thank you! I believe you have answered my question for everyone

Indeed - I don't see that it is possible to miss the point.

And the fact that OSAS does not survive the careful reading of Gal 5:4 , and Romans 11 and Matt 18 does not seem to bother those who choose to cling to that tradition "anyway" - so who am I to oppose their free will in rejecting the clear teaching of scripture on this point.

Anyone who points to Galatians 5:4 as support against justified by Faith

you have been claiming that to pay attention to the details of Gal 5:4 is to reject justification by faith - so you simply sidestep the most devastating points in that chapter so as to cling to OSAS "anyway".

How sad that your solution essentially condemns Paul's statement in Gal 5:4 as if to even make the statement is to reject justification by faith.

Your use of circular reasoning in that regard is pretty hard to miss and the result that it leaves you no room but to repeatedly ignore the problem that Gal 5:4 presents to OSAS - is more transparent than you appear to allow yourself to see.

But as you said - I think this is all incredibly clear to the unbiased objective readers.

What then is the result???

The result is that you end your defense of OSAS in Gal 5:4 in a most self-defeating way choosing simply to "ignore the inconvenient details" when they are found to contradict OSAS - inexplicably claiming that those who notice those Bible details so devastating to the man made tradition of OSAS must have lost their salvation.

And the result for me is that having resolved the issues to a point where your argument has completely fallen apart - means that this is exactly the point I would like to bring up - the next time OSAS or Gal 5:4 comes up since it represents a choke point for the argument you would have so far.

Which brings up the question of resolving other equally devastating Bible texts that debunk OSAS - down the point where your response is again - simply to ignore the details that refute OSAS and hope to side step to some other idea - which also does not pan out.


in Christ,

Bob