Featured Two Interpretations of 2 Thess. 2:13-14

To be honest, Peligius' works were burned up, and the only thing concerning him comes from Saint Augustus of Hippo, his staunch opponent. There are none of Peligius' writings to view to see what his true views were/are, so I'm told. He might not have held to those views, iow.

 

You call quoting scripture the "dark side"?

 

Illogical nonsense is all that is.

We believe in a MORE Sovereign God because we believe in one who is so Sovereign that he has made creatures whose wills are free from that sovereign control.

That's like saying, "I have a wetter view of water than you do because I believe in water that is so wet it is dry."

It's utter madness.

God is either in control of EVERY SINGLE THING or he is not.

But don't try to pull this crud that you having him NOT in control of the decisions man makes makes him more sovereign.

That's like saying if have fifty dollars and I take away five I actually have MORE money than I did when I had fifty.

It is utter, absolute, unadulterated NONSENSE in the highest degree.

 

The only nonsense I see are your examples. Who truly is the master of the chess board, the one who plays both sides to ensure victory....or the one who sets up his opponent to ensure victory? Of course its the latter as that is the one who truly has mastered and rules the game, the one who plays both sides doesnt even have to understand the game, but its impossible for you to acknowledge or admit as it will turn your determinism on its head.

 

Can God make sure that His Will gets done despite what a person 'wills" himself to do?

can God change/alter the will of men, in order to have His Will accomplished thru them?

or has He decided to do a full "hands off", more like Dest version of Him?

 

False dichotomy. Its not an all or nothing proposition. God remains sovereign without needing to play both sides. Let us reason together, says the Lord. Illogical saying in a deterministic model.

 

"The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

C.H.Spurgeon

Jeremiah 23:
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

Lamentations 3:
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.

During the storm of the message of lamentation we find the purpose of the storm. To bring us to Him not away from Him any other message is your own. To turn us from our evil ways and repent and live, not live to repent.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

Divine permission is simply passive determinationism in regard to sin and its consequences. Even you must embrace that, because even you believe that God is able to intervene, overrule and stop anything he chooses to stop. His determination to not intervene is passive determination to permit what He does not actively determine to prevent. So lets drop that nonsenical argument against permission as a form of determination.

Was God able to overrule and thus prevent circumstances that brought sin into His creation? Psalm 76:10 declares explicitly that He is able to restrain and overrule evil and prevent it from occurring. Hence, God determined that sin would occur. The first two chapters of the book of Job explicitly declare He is able to restrain the actions of Satan limiting his sin. Satan could not do what he wanted and could do nothing without PERMISSION from God and so here is an explicit example of DIVINE PERMISSION for Satan to sin or do evil.

Hence, DIVINE PERMISSION as a passive form of determination is totally Biblical as seen in Psalm 76:10 and in the case of Job and in many other circumstances. Jesus told Judas to go do the evil he was determined by God to do.

Jn. 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

God is the author of sin but not according to active determination which has only to do with righteousness as God cannot actively determine anything evil (James 1). However, God can passively determine through SECONDARY CAUSES to permit evil.

God created the "will" which is the power to choose evil, and therefore by that very act of creation, God passively determined the permission for the existence of evil because without that creative act evil would have no possibility to exist. Furthermore, when God created the will with its evil potential He knew that in so doing sin would enter into his creation, and yet He created that potential anyway with full knowledge that His whole creation would fall under the power of evil. This makes God the PRIMARY Cause of sin because He is the one who created the will which alone provided the potential and permission for evil to enter His creation. However, it was not sin to simply create the potential and thus provide permission for entrance.

Here is where SECONDARY and IMMEDIATE causes for sin enter into this equation. God also purposely created all creatures possessing this potential with moral accountability for the proper exercise of the will. In addition, in regard to mankind, he provided them with specific law of good and evil and specifically warned them of the conseqences for the misuse of will.

Hence, God is the PRIMARY cause of sin because with full knowledge He purposely determined to create the faculty of will which alone provides opportunity for evil to enter His creation knowing the outcome in advance.

However, God is not the IMMEDIATE cause of sin due to the fact that God also purposely created the will within creatures held morally accountable for their own exercise of will, giving them a clear law of right and wrong use of will and full warning of the consequences.

If you deny IMMEDIATE or SECONDARY causes for sin then it is YOU that must charge God as the Author of Sin and evil because you cannot possibly deny that God created the will with full knowledge that He was creating the very thing that would give permission for evil to enter His creation but did it willfully.

 

I am not going to copy all of Biblicist's post, but I believe it is complete error. Scripture is clear that God hates sin, and God does not tempt any man to sin. (Jam 1:13).

Just because God created man with free will and knew that men would be able to sin does not mean he is giving permission to sin. It is similar to us as parents, we all knew that our children would sin when we brought them into the world, but no decent parent EVER wills that his child sin.

Jesus said sin was necessary;

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus said offences or sin "must needs be", that is, they must occur, they cannot be avoided, even by God. I personally believe that God could not have created us without free will, as God is love and MUST give man choice. That choice makes sin possible, it cannot be avoided. But that does not mean God desired or willed man would sin. We have children, and we know they will sin, but no good parent wills that his child would ever sin. It is impossible to have children who do not have free will, and so the possibility of sin cannot be avoided.

Likewise, the only way God could avoid sin would be not to create us or kill us before we could sin. But God desired fellowship with man, so the possibility of sin cannot be avoided, it is necessary.

Now, that said, once we choose Christ we are joined to the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:17). We now partake in the new nature (2 Pet 1:4), and we cannot sin when under the influence of the Holy Spirit (1 John 3:9). We are still in this corruptible flesh and so struggle with sin, but in the resurrection we will receive incorruptible bodies that will no longer tempt us to sin, and so we will be able to live without sin. That was our CHOICE.

 

God had alreadu determined what His plans were regarding how to deal with the fall of Adam before Adam made that choice, as God is sovereign, and not just waiting by to seewhat Adam would decide to do!

Same way, He chooses to elect out a certain people unto Himself, whose sins were paid by death of jesus, and he decided to pass over and allow the rest of humanity to stay in their sins, to let them "have their will be done!"

 

God knew Adam would sin by his foreknowledge. Likewise, God knew who would believe in Jesus and chose these persons through belief in the truth.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We are elect "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". We were chosen because of what God foreknew about us. Scripture says he chose us through sanctification of the Spirit (God's part), and belief of the truth (our part).

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chose us from the beginning to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit (God's part) and our belief of the truth. We did not exist in the beginning, so obviously this is describing God's foreknowledge that he knew we would believe in time.

We are chosen according to the Father's foreknowledge.

We are chosen through belief in the truth.

God in his foreknowledge knew we would believe.

 

God did determine how he would deal with man's choice to sin, but God never determines any man to sin.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Does this verse say God determined men would crucify Jesus? NO. What was determined is that Jesus would be delivered to these men. God in his foreknowledge knew that Judas would betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, and that the priests and Pharisees would come to take Jesus. Jesus did not have to surrender to them, but this was determined and Jesus allowed himself to be taken.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus's question demands the answer that he could have called on the Father to rescue him. It also implies that the Father would have rescued Jesus if he had prayed to him. So, Jesus was not compelled to give himself up, he allowed himself to be taken of his own free will. God does not compel.

God knew the Jews would try to kill Jesus, they had attempted to kill Jesus several times before this, but Jesus escaped out of their hands because it was not the proper time, Jesus had to die on the passover to pay for our sins.

God could not have willed the Jews to kill Jesus, or they would not have attempted to kill him several times before the proper time. This shows these men were acting of their own free will and were not compelled by God.

 

Would you care to show scripture that supports this? Show me in scripture where it says God's foreknowledge is the result of his absolute decree.

Unlike you, I do not blindly believe what someone told me, I have to see scripture.

God does know who will believe, and who will not! But unlike you, I am going to show you scripture that shows you that.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

OK, there you go, scripture says that Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING WHO THEY WERE THAT BELIEVED NOT. Now, if Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, all the rest were those that believed! DUH.

Note that I actually provide scripture that supports my view, I do not ask you to blindly believe me.

God is just, he gives every man the choice to be saved or not. It is not his fault when men choose against God. God has done EVERYTHING he possibly could to save men.

Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Now, you believe that God cursed men so that they will naturally choose against God, and then he punishes them for the choice he determined they would make. Horrendous.

 

That is not what Jesus shows in Luke 15. The prodigal son was originally at home with his father. It was only after he knowingly and willingly went out in sin that he was joined to a citizen of that far country (Satan).

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

This is when the prodigal became both lost and dead, a child of wrath, and a child of the devil. But when he repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN, proving men are not born dead in sin.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

No?

Biblicist said God DETERMINED sin would occur. In your view, if God determines something must happen, it is impossible for it to happen otherwise.

I believe sin is necessary, even for God. I showed and explained scripture that I believe supports this.

No, I just showed you that Biblicist believes God DETERMINED sin.

You finally got something right.

Amazing, you say something accurate, but do not understand it. Jesus did not say we sin because we are enslaved and compelled to sin, he said whoever sins is the servant of sin.

No man is born with a cigarette in his mouth. It is only after a man willingly and knowingly chooses to smoke and continues to do so that he becomes addicted and a slave of nicotine.

No man is born with a bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand, it is when a man chooses to drink and continues to do so that he eventually becomes an alcoholic.

This is simply stating a fact, it does not say man is compelled to sin, you are reading that into this verse.

Unregenerated men have the power not to sin. Some unregenerated men are faithful to their wives to the day they die, while regenerated men have been known to cheat on their wives. All men can choose to do good or evil.

Saved men after the resurrection have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they partake in the divine nature, their seed remains in them, so they will not choose to sin. But he will still have free will.

 

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying,
My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Isa 46:10

The end from the beginning... sounds a bit like "reverse engineering" to me.

 

Only if viewed in a linear sense by those bound by time.

 

Where in your list was
"God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Pet 3.

"God so loved the WORLD that sent His only begotten son that WHOEVER believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life" -- John 3.

God sent His son to be the "Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

God sent His Son to be the "atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

In Christ,

Bob