Behold I STAND at the door and Knock Rev 3

[OldRegular]

Right here;

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

It was after hearing Peter preach and BELIEVING the gospel that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit.

The way the text is presented "who believed" refers to "us" the Jews not "them" the Gentiles! You might also read Verse 15 which states the Holy Spirit was given before belief is mentioned. In fact Verse 15 tells the Holy Spirit came as Peter began to speak before they had even heard what Peter was going to say.

I am not saying that Cornelius was not a believer. He was a believer and a follower of God. That is apparent from what we read in Acts 10. Cornelius apparently had not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and had not received the Holy Spirit but then the Apostles were believers before they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:1-4
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

 

[BobRyan]

The way the text is presented "who believed" refers to "us" the Jews not "them" the Gentiles! You might also read Verse 15 which states the Holy Spirit was given before belief is mentioned. In fact Verse 15 tells the Holy Spirit came as Peter began to speak .

John 16 points out that the Holy Spirit works on all mankind lost or not "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In the case of Acts 10 - they are already being ministered to by Angels and the Holy Spirit before they send to Peter.

But the gifts of the Spirit are only for believers

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

 

[BobRyan]

Thus whether you take the Rev 3 case of those who are "naked" and without the robe of Christ's righteousness to be saints that have lost salvation - or members of the church who never had salvation - the universal invitation of Christ "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in" is the offer of salvation to ALL to "HE who has an EAR" Rev 3:22. I think we both know this.

I can hardly believe that we are still debating Revelation 3:22? You have not addressed the evidence placd before you yet! You ignore it and simply reassert fiction.

So you are counting Rev 3:22 as fiction??

Really??

1. "Anyone" is within the context of the addressees - the seven churches - which totally excludes the lost world

wrong again. As was already pointed out to you in Acts 17.

it is the same model where Christ speaking to the 12 then applies the same points made "to ALL" who read the words and accept them.

You keep missing that not so subtle detail as it is posted over and over again.

The message to the churches is meant for - Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


"I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Just as in John 17 - prayer of Christ for the TWELVE is meant for everyone who hears.

John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

I am not saying that Cornelius was not a believer. He was a believer and a follower of God. That is apparent from what we read in Acts 10. Cornelius apparently had not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and had not received the Holy Spirit but then the Apostles were believers before they received the Holy Spirit.

Exactly! This is what I have been saying for years. Yes, the apostles believed on Jesus for three and a half years before they received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Cornelius believed in God for many years (because he had a good reputation among all the Jews) and yet he did not have the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 teaches that a man without the Holy Spirit is "in the flesh", yet the apostles were able to believe for many years, and Cornelius was able to believe in God for many years without the Holy Spirit.

In fact, thousands of people believed on Jesus who did not have the Holy Spirit, we are directly told that in scripture.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This completely refutes Total Inability and shows an unregenerated man has the ability to believe.

And now you see it for yourself. Congratulations.

 

[OldRegular]

Galatians 5:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

So whats Paul saying here..... he is saying if the believers allow themselves to be seduced by false teaching, they will be led away from grace into legalism. This isn't the same thing as saying that they will loose their salvation though the doctrine of legalists was indeed a false doctrine by which nobody could be saved. Paul's argument is that the Galatians Christians should stand firm in the liberty Christ has given them & not become "Burdened again by the yoke of slavery" (Gal. 5:1)

Very well said Steve. That is exactly what Paul is telling the Galatians and us! Obviously s lot on this Forum are just like the Galatians, grace plus works with the emphasis on works.

 

[OldRegular]

This completely refutes Total Inability and shows an unregenerated man has the ability to believe.

And now you see it for yourself. Congratulations.

Not really Winman. Abraham was called a Friend of God but I don't recall any mention of the indwelling Spirit, I could be wrong. You forget that the Apostles were in the presence of Jesus Christ.

But believe what you will. You seem to be the only infallible person on this Forum!

 

[The Biblicist]

Thus whether you take the Rev 3 case of those who are "naked" and without the robe of Christ's righteousness to be saints that have lost salvation - or members of the church who never had salvation - the universal invitation of Christ "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in" is the offer of salvation to ALL to "HE who has an EAR" Rev 3:22. I think we both know this.

First there is not a word about "salvation" or "believe" in Revelations 3:22.

Second, verses 15-18 is the basis for chastening in verse 19 and if not I dare you to find any other reasons provided for chastening, and chastening is NEVER for God's enemies/lost but for his children (Heb. 12:7-10).

Third, verses 15-18 is addressed to the WHOLE congregation and is Christ's charge against the WHOLE congregation.

Fourth, you are selectively picking ONE METAPHOR from among many that are used to describe the WHOLE congregation and interpreting it contrary to the rest of the metaphors. The WHOLE congregation is not without the imputed righteousness of Christ, because if that were the case then there would NONE WITH EARS TO HEAR the Spirit. Furthmore, Christians who are living in such a way that chastening is needed are described properly by ALL THESE METAPHORS.

Fifth, no matter how hard you attempt to pervert, jerk out of context verse 20 to suite your own belly you cannot divorce it from verse 19 nor from the fact it is addressed to saved persons with SPECIFIC CHARACTERISTICS as a WHOLE CONGREGATION.

So you are counting Rev 3:22 as fiction??

Really??

It is statments like this that manifest that you are a deceptive person worthy of little respect as you know this charge is an outright lie.

As for the rest of your post it is the common RUN, JUMP and PIT routine that characterizes every aspect of your soteriology.

 

[Winman]

Not really Winman. Abraham was called a Friend of God but I don't recall any mention of the indwelling Spirit, I could be wrong. You forget that the Apostles were in the presence of Jesus Christ.

But believe what you will. You seem to be the only infallible person on this Forum!

Exactly! And that is why Abraham did not ascend to heaven when he died, but waited in "Abraham's Bosom" in the center of the earth. When Jesus was on the cross, he told the malefactor, Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. Where did Jesus go when he died? To the heart of the earth.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus went down into Abraham's Bosom or Paradise when he died on the cross. When he rose, he ascended to heaven. If he did not rise, our faith would be vain and we would all be in our sins.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Why would we still be in our sins if Jesus did not rise? Because Jesus had to sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven.

Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, no men were washed from their sins and could not appear before the Father. So all saints had to wait in the heart of the earth until Jesus rose from the dead.

Then Jesus descended back down and lead captivity captive. He took all those saints in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with him. Now "Paradise" is in heaven (Revelation), not in the center of the earth anymore.

Abraham believed, and he was imputed righteous, but the blood had to be applied before he could be washed. Only when he was washed could he be joined to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will not join himself to someone who is unclean like a harlot.

1 Cor 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Our spirit had to be washed clean by the blood of Christ before we could be joined or married to the Holy Spirit. So Abraham and all the OT saints had to wait for Jesus to rise from the dead and sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven before they could receive the Holy Spirit.

Abraham did not have the indwelling Spirit, yet he was able to believe in the promised Messiah. Total Inability is FALSE DOCTRINE.

 

[BobRyan]

Thus whether you take the Rev 3 case of those who are "naked" and without the robe of Christ's righteousness to be saints that have lost salvation - or members of the church who never had salvation - the universal invitation of Christ "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE opens the door I WILL come in" is the offer of salvation to ALL to "HE who has an EAR" Rev 3:22. I think we both know this."I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The lost sinner in this illustration by Christ
1. Alone on the inside of the soul - without Christ.
2. Not clothed with the Robe of Christ's Righteousness.
3. Christ is on the OUTSIDE standing, knocking, waiting

It is a Christless state on the inside. As is the case with all the lost.

First there is not a word about "salvation" or "believe" in Revelations 3:22.

Then you have to invent a "Christless salvation" - a saved state that is "Christ less"

Salvation APART from "Christ IN you the hope of Glory" that the actual Bible speaks of.

I am not prepared to invent a whole new extra-biblical doctrine on Christless salvation just to make Calvinism happy.

Second, verses 15-18 is the basis for chastening in verse 19 and if not I dare you to find any other reasons provided for chastening,

Another circular argument.

The Bible says "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" -
"God is not willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

Calvinism responds with "Oh nooooo He does NOT! and because of that Rev 3 cannot about the lost since He loves them in Rev 3".

A circular argument - picture perfect example.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

and chastening is NEVER for God's enemies/lost but for his children (Heb. 12:7-10).

Hebrews 12 does not say "Rebuke is just for the saved" as Calvinism "needs it to say".

Yet if it did - you would have a point for Rev 3.

As it is - you don't.

That is easy enough to see.

God says that He LOVES the WORLD and even rebukes, convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

The WHOLE congregation is not without the imputed righteousness of Christ,

Indeed this is a message to the lost. Those without the robe of Christ's righteousness, those without Christ within the soul.

The unsaved.

While there may be some in the church saved - the primary characteristic of the church - is of the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Hebrews 12 does not say "Rebuke is just for the saved" as Calvinism "needs it to say".

Yet if it did - you would have a point for Rev 3.

As it is - you don't.

That is easy enough to see.

God says that He LOVES the WORLD and even rebukes, convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.



Indeed this is a message to the lost. Those without the robe of Christ's righteousness, those without Christ within the soul.

The unsaved.

While there may be some in the church saved - the primary characteristic of the church - is of the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

Imagine a Calvinist arguing that everyone in the church is saved!

I guess Biblicist has never listened to Paul Washer, he practically tells everyone in the church that they are not real Christians and are lost. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Imagine a Calvinist arguing that everyone in the church is saved!

I guess Biblicist has never listened to Paul Washer, he practically tells everyone in the church that they are not real Christians and are lost. :laugh:

indeed they only go those extremes when trying to wriggle their way out of a Bible text that is pointedly not Calvinist.

And reminds me of your other point about some early Calvinists arguing for Universalism. And that makes sense because if God just "zaps" the lost to be saved - why is He not zapping them ALL??

 

[DHK]

Imagine a Calvinist arguing that everyone in the church is saved!

I guess Biblicist has never listened to Paul Washer, he practically tells everyone in the church that they are not real Christians and are lost. :laugh:

If you are referring to Biblicist, I might be wrong but I don't think that he is a Calvinist. You may be eating your own words.
Secondly, are you able to give a coherent decent Biblical definition of a "local church"? Probably not.
If you did, you would know that all Biblically-defined local church's are composed of baptized believers, and thus by default they have no unbelievers in them. There may be unbelievers in the building, but since when is the church "building" defined as the "church" in the Bible??

 

[The Biblicist]

The lost sinner in this illustration by Christ
1. Alone on the inside of the soul - without Christ.
2. Not clothed with the Robe of Christ's Righteousness.
3. Christ is on the OUTSIDE standing, knocking, waiting

It is a Christless state on the inside. As is the case with all the lost.

You simply do not have the capacity to deal with the scriptures in an honest objective manner. Your interpretation demands the entire congregation is composed of lost people because verses 15-18 is directed toward the Pastor and the whole congregation, as your very next statment also demands:

Then you have to invent a "Christless salvation" - a saved state that is "Christ less"

Salvation APART from "Christ IN you the hope of Glory" that the actual Bible speaks of.

Your interpretation demands there is not a single soliary saved person in this entire congregation including the Pastor because these verses specifically are addressed to and describe the WHOLE CONGREGATION not just some in the congregation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hebrews 12 does not say "Rebuke is just for the saved" as Calvinism "needs it to say".

Again, another example of pure abuse of God's Word. Hebrews 12:5-10 does not limit chastening to merely rebuke as you demand by this dishonest response. You intentionally substitute the word "rebuke" for "chasten" but Revelation 3:19 does not use your substitutional word "rebuke" does it? So you are intentionally perverting that scripture, changing God's Word to suit your own evil desires.

Yet if it did - you would have a point for Rev 3.

This is a confession of guilt by you as you must change the word of God to make this point and since your point is falsified then it is an admission that I have made my point.

As it is - you don't.

Quite the contrary because "as it is" the word "chasten" rather than "rebuke" is found in verse 19 and thus my point is established beyond doubt.

God says that He LOVES the WORLD and even rebukes, convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

Readers, note that Bob does not use the word "chasten" as found in verse 19 but uses his own perversion "rebuke." Anyone who has done any amount of study on Chastening knows it includes much more than "rebuke" and chastening is NEVER ONCE used in scripture in connection with the lost world. However, Bob rewrites scripture just to defend his false doctrines.

While there may be some in the church saved - the primary characteristic of the church - is of the lost.

According to how you interpret verses 15-18 there is no contextual basis for even "some" of this congregation to be saved.

According to how you interpret verse 19 "chastening" is for the lost.

According to how you interpret verse 20 it is impossible for a congregation of saved people to sin so that they have shut out Christ from their fellowship, and thus impossible to be in a state where chastening is needed to restore that fellowship.

Readers, this is how far a man will go who has only an agenda of hate toward the truth of God's Word - he must intentionally substitute other words, pervert the context and do his best to conceal the truth that exposes his doctrinal errors.
in Christ,

 

[The Biblicist]

If you are referring to Biblicist, I might be wrong but I don't think that he is a Calvinist.

Brother, I detest the word "calvinism" and detest being called such as I do not hold to everything Calvinists believe. However, if theological classifications are what must be used then I would be classified more as a "calvinist" than as an "armininian."

However, many on this forum who have used classic Calvinism to corner me and demand that I must agree with classic Calvinistic terms and definitions. They have complained that my explanations do not fit the Calvinistic mold. Thus, instead of denying I am a Calvinist they accuse me of being an ignorant and inconsistent calvinist. Instead I am a Biblicist as I have NEVER ONCE quoted any Calvinist to support my interpretations of scripture but I have only and in every single instance defended my views by exposition of scripture. I will never quote Calvin or Calvinists to defend my interpretations of scripture because if my interpretations cannot be defended by faithful exposition of God's Word then I simply will not embrace them but repudiate them entirely.

 

[Yeshua1]

indeed they only go those extremes when trying to wriggle their way out of a Bible text that is pointedly not Calvinist.

And reminds me of your other point about some early Calvinists arguing for Universalism. And that makes sense because if God just "zaps" the lost to be saved - why is He not zapping them ALL??

MOST within the local churches are indeed redeemed and saved, as they gather to worship/be taught of the Lord!

Evangelism done primarily outside the building...

And why does God owe ANY of us the reason to get 'zapped"?

We ALL deserve hell, its a miracle that He 'zaps" any of us!

 

[Winman]

Brother, I detest the word "calvinism" and detest being called such as I do not hold to everything Calvinists believe. However, if theological classifications are what must be used then I would be classified more as a "calvinist" than as an "armininian."

However, many on this forum who have used classic Calvinism to corner me and demand that I must agree with classic Calvinistic terms and definitions. They have complained that my explanations do not fit the Calvinistic mold. Thus, instead of denying I am a Calvinist they accuse me of being an ignorant and inconsistent calvinist. Instead I am a Biblicist as I have NEVER ONCE quoted any Calvinist to support my interpretations of scripture but I have only and in every single instance defended my views by exposition of scripture. I will never quote Calvin or Calvinists to defend my interpretations of scripture because if my interpretations cannot be defended by faithful exposition of God's Word then I simply will not embrace them but repudiate them entirely.

Dude, you are a Calvinist, in fact, you are very nearly a hyper-Calvinist.

And you may not have quoted Calvinists, but you have referenced them such as this post;

For example, consider 1 Tim. 2:8 where Paul uses the special Greek term that means "males" only in regard to prayer. In the church the males lead in prayer because in type they correspond to Christ as Priest and prayer is an intercessory act in the church. In 1 Cor. 11:3-11 women can pray and prophesy if covered and they pray and prophesy not individually and publicly but rather under the leadership of the male leading in prayer as the phrase "prayer and prophesying" was descriptive of the worship service and paticipating in it (See John Gill).

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2026847#post2026847

So, don't give me this "Biblicist" junk, you ignore scripture constantly to hold to Calvinism, it is obvious to any unbiased reader who reads your posts regularly.

 

[The Biblicist]

And you may not have quoted Calvinists, but you have referenced them such as this post;



http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2026847#post2026847

Wow! So you are a Calvinist too by this standard or have you never ever quoted a Calvinistic writer about anything??? This was not a quotation to support anything about salvation but about the historic Jewish role of women in the assembly. If that is a contradition to my claim that I have never ever quoted a Calvinist to support my view of salvation then everyone on this forum are Calvinists. BTW I have quoten Ellen G. White to prove her to be a false prophetess does that make me a Seventh Day Adventist since I quoted a Seventh Day Adventist for that purpose???

So I am a Calvinist because I quote a Calvinist not on Calvinism, not on any doctrine of soteriology but on the historical Jewish view of women in the assembly?

 

[DHK]

Dude, you are a Calvinist, in fact, you are very nearly a hyper-Calvinist.

And you may not have quoted Calvinists, but you have referenced them such as this post;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2026847#post2026847

So, don't give me this "Biblicist" junk, you ignore scripture constantly to hold to Calvinism, it is obvious to any unbiased reader who reads your posts regularly.

Winman your logic stinks.
I am not a Calvinist, but you would probably align with them simply because my beliefs differ from yours. But much of your doctrine not only lie outside of Calvinism it lies outside of historic orthodox Christianity.