Featured God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

"God so loved the World... yes really" my version of John 3:16 when discussed in the context of Calvinism...

"God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

And of course - nobody burns in the second death judgment until Rev 20. Nothing happens before then.

But as for the Love of God for the lost... the OP and page 1 comes to mind.

and as for ...

Also, there is this Scripture: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Perfect Arminian text showing salvation for those who are "by nature the children of wrath" - proof that the "by nature children of wrath" is not a sign that God does not love or save them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

This is where the Calvinist POV seems to bail --

It has no answer.

 

The NEW Covenant is also spoken to Israel and only made WITH Israel and Judah - BOTH in Jer 31:31-33 AND in Hebrews 8.

" Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:" Heb 8:8

The TEN Commandments including the command not to take God's name in vain are spoken TO Israel Ex 20:1-7. So unless you consider it ok for Christians to take God's name in vain... also a problem for your statement.

Christ said "Salvation is of the JEWS" in John 4 - so unless you think that only Jews are saved - a bit problem for your solution.

Acts 13 Paul says Christ came to as a Savior to ISRAEL - so unless you think that only Jews are saved under the Gospel - it is another problem for your solution.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

I appreciate your attempt to solve the problem for Calvinism but you are appealing to an idea that would also deprive gentiles of the New Covenant.

The pattern of salvation is the SAME in OT and NT because as Paul said in Heb 4 "The GOSPEL was preached to us JUST as it was to THEM also".

In 1Cor 10 "They all drank from the same ROCK and that ROCK was Christ".

In Gal 3:7 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham".

In Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel.

That method/plan/means of salvation has always been the same - by grace through faith - and it operated in both OT and NT. Thus Moses and Elijah are WITH CHRIST in Matt 17 in glorified form - and seen by 3 disciples. And that means that ignoring scriptures listed pointing to a huge problem in Calvinism is not at all excusable. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

God's "Appeal" and Lament

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The elephant in Calvinism’s living room is that they make God the saboteur of His own Gospel plans for life and salvation – the cause of His own lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]– like a house wife with a broom lamenting as she stares at a pile of dirt that is not swept clean, crying out “what more could I have done!! Why are you still just sitting there unswept??”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It appears to those watching Calvinism making such claims - that it is all counter intuitive - counter to the Word of God and based solely on incorrect "inferences" inserted into a text here or there.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

You are using emotionalism as your response to the sola-scriptura problem set for Calvinism in the above texts.

That worked in the dark-ages were name calling alone and emotionalism was sufficient to condemn the saints. It no longer works. We have Bibles.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In the dark ages this tactic was used any time sola scriptura problems came up for the RCC and they had no answer - they resorted to emotionalism -- so for example their treatment of Luther. Simply calling him a heretic and pleading for him to recant was not really addressing the problem.

Again - you need to appeal to some fact.

Anna in the temple - a prophetess -- at the birth of Christ.

Philip's daughters - prophetess.

"Each one has a revelation" in 1Cor 14 when they come together the report of Paul about the Corinthian church.

"desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1 - the command of Paul to the entire Corinthian church.

Miriam - a prophet at the time that Moses is also getting messages from God.

Deborah a prophet AND a judge of Israel -

These are "bible facts".

My "emotional" appeal to you would be that you not oppose the Word of God via your extreme inference poured into texts to make them oppose these clear examples in scripture that go contrary to your inference and speculation.

But I usually don't go down that road. So why divert this to the subject of prophecy - when the topic is calvinism and the list of texts in my post about Calvinism as stated above -- though they are the result of inspiration and prophecy recorded in the Bible - have nothing at all to do with Ellen White.

There is another area of this board where you can explore your false accusations in more detail and see further just how the Bible contradicts the speculations you are making. Why use this and divert this thread to that topic?

in Christ,

Bob

 

When we look at that irrefutable list of texts exposing a key flaw in Calvinism as stated above - and repeated on this thread having stood the test of time by those who tried to find a flaw in it - we find that it is "not just SDAs" that notice this glaring truck-sized hole in the fabric of Calvinism - so the "just SDAs, and just Ellen White" response to that list of texts, is avoidance tactic -- it is not reality.

Furthermore there is no list of texts like that from Ellen White on the subject of Calvinism -- so claiming that she either wrote them, or else singled them out as the key weakness in Calvinism - is "also not reality".

Calvinists will need some "reality" to solve the problem for Calvinism as presented by that list of texts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Just not in "real life"???

Step 1 - address the texts that show the glaring flaw in Calvinism. #73

You keep running away from them as if "we won't notice". Why do that?

ahh yes - the "rant" instead of the Bible solution to the problem from scripture confronting Calvinism.

Who would have guessed that he would resort to it "again"???

who???

in Christ,

Bob

 

Attacking the poster who provides that list of texts from which you hide is not a "good substitute" for an actual Bible answer that gets Calvinism to survive the point that you find so difficult to answer.

I will remind you of it "again" to help you remember that the Bible cannot be "insulted away" but must be studied and answered with accuracy.


[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The elephant in Calvinism’s living room is that they make God the saboteur of His own Gospel plans for life and salvation – the cause of His own lament [/FONT]