Featured When were you saved ?

I wasn't in a church when I got saved, though someone "led" me to Christ. However, I don't think that is what you are getting at either is it? I am just asking: are you referring, when you say "not in the need of a sinner to be in an atmosphere of gospel preaching," to something like the testimony of Hudson Taylor?

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/taylor.htm

 

Wasn't Taylor a Plymouth Bretheren?

 

Sorry, that's the Westminster Confession of Faith. Here's what I mean:

There are three problems with this:

First, being "born from above" amounts to a subjective change, whereby God renews the man's will into a godly one, making him willing and able to choose Christ. But this still makes the conversion amount to a "decision"

Second, this supposed effectual call is said to precede justification. Yet, Romans 4:5 says that God justifies the UNgodly on account of faith. If God changes the man's heart from stone to flesh, gives him an enlightened mind and moves him out of a state of sin and death, then I could hardly think Paul could accurately describe this man as "ungodly" after this

Third, this view offers no application of Hebrews 9-10, which describes the better ministry of Christ, whereby our sins are removed. All of the times when Jesus healed someone, it was a picture of the coming work of regeneration. "your faith has healed you" was a common expression. The disease had been removed, I could very easily say that the person had been cleansed of their disease. Peter said "by His stripes are ye healed". We are spiritually healed by Jesus' death. That is far more objective than simply being given a better frame of mind.

The WCF proposes nothing more than a "crediting" of righteousness. But if that's the case, nobody could go to heaven yet. No sin will enter therein. And covered sin is still sin. If you have leprosy, and put on a coat, you're covered - but still a leper. Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. The blood of bulls and goats covered sin effectively enough in the OT, so why in the world did Jesus need to die if He couldn't do any better than that?

So when does the WCF propose that we are "actually" cleansed of sin? It never uses that language which is so rich in scripture. It is a mere one sentence, almost at the end:

In essence, it is saying that the washing doesn't happen until we die. That means the WCF seriously misunderstands the nature of regeneration and the born again experience, relegating it to a mere subjective change in disposition while we live in this mortal body. And that men won't *actually* experience this cleansing, or being born again, until death.

I agree 100%
I usually say that it happens TO us

I agree 100% again

 

You're welcome. I really appreciate the tone of the discussion. It is worlds away from the forum where I used to participate

The Westminster Confession and Shorter Catechism are the basis for Reformed Theology. I could be mistaken, but I was thinking that you are Reformed (at least to some degree). Forgive me if I was presumptuous

 

That is not Taylor's testimony (that he was already regenerate). And it certainly wasn't his mother's testimony, who at the same time was in another place praying for his salvation. She didn't believe he was saved, or for that matter regenerated if you must draw a line. Both happen simultaneously. You can't have one without the other.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

It is the Word of God that is the agency by which the Holy Spirit works through to bring a person to Christ. That holds true whether one is speaking directly of regeneration or conversion or justification.

 

The 'word' there is Logos, the living Word. You're forcing it to mean the gospel as you have with 'water' in Jn 3:5

 

I don't agree with your interpretation. It is biased.
The word "logos" is used 330 times in the NT and not all of them have a "Reformed" usage. LOL
They vary in translation from: word, saying, account, speech, thing, and a host of other words depending on the context.
In the Gospel of John alone logos occurs 40 times. 19 times it is translated as "word," 17 times as "saying," and 4 times in the first chapter as "Word" referring to Christ. The only other references where it refers to Christ are in 1John 1:1; 5:7 and in Rev. 19:13.
1Pet.1:23 is not one of those references.

In context:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It is the word of God (the gospel) which is preached unto you. That is the written word. Verse 25 makes this very clear.

 

DHK, look closer! I don't have a problem at all amplifying the passage to read, 'this is the Christ which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

The passage is saying the same thing as 2 Tim 1:10:

but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

The gospel TELLS about what the Living Word has done. It doesn't abolish death or impart life and immortality, it tells of it.

 

The Word of God is alive; it is powerful:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Without the Word of God (and one's belief in it) one cannot be saved!
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

The word, Logos, as in:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. Jn 1

I agree totally with all the above on the condition that 'saved' is not synonymous with 'the birth from above'.

We are indeed 'saved' by obedience to the gospel.

 

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these λογος ; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 2:40 And with many other λογος did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his λογος were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the λογος believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

The logos is the written word, by which a person is regenerated (1Pet.1:23), by which a person is saved (Acts 4:4). The Scripture is clear. Your Calvinism is in error here. Without the Word of God a person can neither be regenerated nor saved. The Word is absolutely essential.

 

'this is 'the gospel' which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

Really brother, don't you see the redundancy there?

 

I am not sure what you are referring to. The Word is absolutely necessary.
Here is what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--Paul "declared" the gospel to them. Through the gospel they were saved. He expounds on this theme, especially the resurrection, because there were some false teachers in the Corinthian church that denied the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Notice that it is Christ that is preached. How is Christ preached? He is preached by the preaching of the gospel. All that we know about Christ is contained within the pages of the Scriptures. Otherwise you are practicing a form of mysticism. The Holy Spirit does not come and magically regenerate a person without the Word of God. This is the teaching of 1Pet.1:23. One is born again by the Word of God.

 

Yes DHK, Christ was absolutely necessary for eternal life. Obedience to the gospel on our part is absolutely necessary to 'lay hold' on the quality of eternal life in this time realm.

 

DHK the scripture you referred too, the PB understands this as time salvation, meaning we are being saved.