When were you saved ?

[pinoybaptist]

I read the article, and I would say it is definitely coming from a Calvinist perspective, which I do not share. The author had the future aspect as the time when we will finally be made perfect, which reminds me of the WCF. That's always been a head scratcher for me, as it seems to relegate regeneration to a subjective change in disposition, rather than an objective washing as described in Titus 3:5.
But, regardless of the driving perspective, I appreciate teachings that are likely to make people study.

What is WCF ? Pardon my ignorance but this is the first time I heard about it, and can you elaborate further on the "subjective change in disposition" bit? thanks.

One bible study at our church was taught by a visiting seminary professor, and he chose the subject of whether or not we can lose our salvation. When he polled the class, he was totally surprised that I raised my hand for both yes and no. Then I went on to explain that salvation is very broad in the NT.

actually, from a Primitive Baptist POV you are correct.
Eternal Salvation CANNOT EVER BE LOST, for the simple reason it is OF GOD to the sinner. It requires nothing of the sinner. Everything necessary for the salvation and redemption of the sinner, was done by God. Eternal salvation is PASSIVE to us.

Gospel salvation, on the other hand, can be lost, from my perspective, and I don't know if my PB brethren and friends will agree.
Gospel salvation is ACTIVE salvation for the sinner. It is that salvation that follows conversion and commences with repentance, then obedience, faithfulness, and everything that we hear preached from the pulpit as requisites to eternal salvation (which is incorrect).
Now, conversion is also a process, and one can convert from false teaching and false religions (as in the case of some in the Bible that we read about) to correct doctrines and practices then slide back to their old beliefs or convert to another belief which might be heretical or worse.
When that happens, one's gospel salvation can be lost, along with the natural results of obedience, which is a God-led life with blessings.

Afterwards, he asked me where did I go to seminary, because that's not something a layman would typically know. I said it's a shame that people learn in seminary and then fail to teach the laity

I have an acquired suspicion of seminary graduates and schools.
I am a Bible college graduate myself, was a missionary to a depressed area in my country which the Lord blessed with a now thriving and growing church which is now being pastored by a deacon who was one of the first converts. That church, with no prompting from me as former pastor, is now a hybrid Arminian/Calvinistic congregation.
When I joined the Primitive Baptist church and became deeply engrossed in the study of the Doctrine of Grace I realized I had spent four years studying error and preaching it, too.
My name has been removed from the roster of graduates (as far as I know) for being, in the words of the president, a disciple of John McArthur and a Calvinist (though I never am, nor was, a disciple of JM), and Calvinist I definitely am not since I do not believe in the need of a sinner to be in an atmosphere of gospel preaching for God to quicken him.

 

[DHK]

I do not believe in the need of a sinner to be in an atmosphere of gospel preaching for God to quicken him.

I wasn't in a church when I got saved, though someone "led" me to Christ. However, I don't think that is what you are getting at either is it? I am just asking: are you referring, when you say "not in the need of a sinner to be in an atmosphere of gospel preaching," to something like the testimony of Hudson Taylor?

"One holiday, while alone in his father's library, Taylor picked up a gospel tract hoping for an interesting story before the inevitable moral at the end. As he read, the phrase the finished work of Christ caught his attention. He asked himself: 'What is finished?'
"Reared as he had been, the answer came quickly to him: 'A full and perfect atonement and satisfaction for sin; the debt was paid by the Substitute; Christ died for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' Then flooded in the joyous conviction that if the whole work was finished and the whole debt paid, all that was left for him to do was to accept it. That he did and fell on his knees, praising God.
"He soon discovered that at that very hour in a distant town his mother, driven by an inner compulsion to pray for him, had had the quiet assurance that her prayer had been granted. A little later he also learned that his sister Amelia had for exactly a month been praying for his conversion. All of this helped to give him a confidence in concrete answers to explicit requests in prayer."
— from Kenneth Scott Latourette, These Sought a Country, p. 64

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/taylor.htm

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wasn't Taylor a Plymouth Bretheren?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I wasn't in a church when I got saved, though someone "led" me to Christ. However, I don't think that is what you are getting at either is it? I am just asking: are you referring, when you say "not in the need of a sinner to be in an atmosphere of gospel preaching," to something like the testimony of Hudson Taylor?

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/taylor.htm

in my personal opinion which I am basing on a similar experience, Taylor was ALREADY regenerate when he picked up the tract.

I was given a New Testament, read it cover to cover in less than a week, and while reading it, certain verses would leap out at me and I feel my heart palpitate.
verses like "TODAY, you shall be with me in paradise", "fear not, it is I", "Lazarus, come forth".
Even before I put down the New Testament, I KNEW who I was, I KNEW I was forgiven, I KNEW Christ would take me with Him if He came back.

And NO MAN taught me.

 

[JamesL]

What is WCF ? Pardon my ignorance but this is the first time I heard about it, and can you elaborate further on the "subjective change in disposition" bit? thanks.

Sorry, that's the Westminster Confession of Faith. Here's what I mean:

Chapter X - Of Effectual Calling
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

II. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

There are three problems with this:

First, being "born from above" amounts to a subjective change, whereby God renews the man's will into a godly one, making him willing and able to choose Christ. But this still makes the conversion amount to a "decision"

Second, this supposed effectual call is said to precede justification. Yet, Romans 4:5 says that God justifies the UNgodly on account of faith. If God changes the man's heart from stone to flesh, gives him an enlightened mind and moves him out of a state of sin and death, then I could hardly think Paul could accurately describe this man as "ungodly" after this

Third, this view offers no application of Hebrews 9-10, which describes the better ministry of Christ, whereby our sins are removed. All of the times when Jesus healed someone, it was a picture of the coming work of regeneration. "your faith has healed you" was a common expression. The disease had been removed, I could very easily say that the person had been cleansed of their disease. Peter said "by His stripes are ye healed". We are spiritually healed by Jesus' death. That is far more objective than simply being given a better frame of mind.

The WCF proposes nothing more than a "crediting" of righteousness. But if that's the case, nobody could go to heaven yet. No sin will enter therein. And covered sin is still sin. If you have leprosy, and put on a coat, you're covered - but still a leper. Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant. The blood of bulls and goats covered sin effectively enough in the OT, so why in the world did Jesus need to die if He couldn't do any better than that?

So when does the WCF propose that we are "actually" cleansed of sin? It never uses that language which is so rich in scripture. It is a mere one sentence, almost at the end:

Chapter XXXII - Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead.
The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them: the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.

In essence, it is saying that the washing doesn't happen until we die. That means the WCF seriously misunderstands the nature of regeneration and the born again experience, relegating it to a mere subjective change in disposition while we live in this mortal body. And that men won't *actually* experience this cleansing, or being born again, until death.

Eternal salvation is PASSIVE to us.

I agree 100%
I usually say that it happens TO us

Gospel salvation is ACTIVE salvation for the sinner. It is that salvation that follows conversion and commences with repentance, then obedience, faithfulness, and everything that we hear preached from the pulpit as requisites to eternal salvation (which is incorrect).

I agree 100% again

 

[pinoybaptist]

Wasn't Taylor a Plymouth Bretheren?

Some claim he's Baptist, but I think you're right.

 

[pinoybaptist]

JamesL:

Thank you very much for the clarification.
I don't know much about the WCF or any confession for that matter.
The church I belong to in Maryland (I am now in California) wasn't all that big with confessions.
Fact we weren't much into associations, either.

 

[JamesL]

JamesL:

Thank you very much for the clarification.

You're welcome. I really appreciate the tone of the discussion. It is worlds away from the forum where I used to participate

I don't know much about the WCF or any confession for that matter.
The church I belong to in Maryland (I am now in California) wasn't all that big with confessions.
Fact we weren't much into associations, either.

The Westminster Confession and Shorter Catechism are the basis for Reformed Theology. I could be mistaken, but I was thinking that you are Reformed (at least to some degree). Forgive me if I was presumptuous

 

[DHK]

in my personal opinion which I am basing on a similar experience, Taylor was ALREADY regenerate when he picked up the tract.

I was given a New Testament, read it cover to cover in less than a week, and while reading it, certain verses would leap out at me and I feel my heart palpitate.
verses like "TODAY, you shall be with me in paradise", "fear not, it is I", "Lazarus, come forth".
Even before I put down the New Testament, I KNEW who I was, I KNEW I was forgiven, I KNEW Christ would take me with Him if He came back.

And NO MAN taught me.

That is not Taylor's testimony (that he was already regenerate). And it certainly wasn't his mother's testimony, who at the same time was in another place praying for his salvation. She didn't believe he was saved, or for that matter regenerated if you must draw a line. Both happen simultaneously. You can't have one without the other.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

It is the Word of God that is the agency by which the Holy Spirit works through to bring a person to Christ. That holds true whether one is speaking directly of regeneration or conversion or justification.

 

[DHK]

That is not Taylor's testimony (that he was already regenerate). And it certainly wasn't his mother's testimony, who at the same time was in another place praying for his salvation. She didn't believe he was saved, or for that matter regenerated if you must draw a line. Both happen simultaneously. You can't have one without the other.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

It is the Word of God that is the agency by which the Holy Spirit works through to bring a person to Christ. That holds true whether one is speaking directly of regeneration or conversion or justification.

Your experience parallels his in this respect that when you say, "no man taught me," it is not quite true. You, like I, had received truth mixed with error in the RCC. But we knew some facts about Christ in the RCC. Then in spite of all the cults and rebellious ways you took, you did end up in a church that did "teach you." You did learn the truth. You may not have genuinely trusted Christ then, but you learned from them. Then as you read the Scriptures on your own the Holy Spirit was able to use that knowledge that you had learned and apply it to your own heart. God uses men as his vessels.

The Ethiopian eunuch was unable to understand the Word until someone, like Philip, came and preached Jesus unto him. God uses different people in different ways. Everyone's testimony is different. It would be two years before I would go to a local Baptist church and be baptized after I was saved. That wasn't because of rebellion, but rather because of lack of teaching combined with other circumstances. (The Church of Christ tells me I would have gone to Hell had I died then). lol.

 

[kyredneck]

...1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

It is the Word of God that is the agency by which the Holy Spirit works through to bring a person to Christ. That holds true whether one is speaking directly of regeneration or conversion or justification.

The 'word' there is Logos, the living Word. You're forcing it to mean the gospel as you have with 'water' in Jn 3:5

 

[DHK]

The 'word' there is Logos, the living Word. You're forcing it to mean the gospel as you have with 'water' in Jn 3:5

I don't agree with your interpretation. It is biased.
The word "logos" is used 330 times in the NT and not all of them have a "Reformed" usage. LOL
They vary in translation from: word, saying, account, speech, thing, and a host of other words depending on the context.
In the Gospel of John alone logos occurs 40 times. 19 times it is translated as "word," 17 times as "saying," and 4 times in the first chapter as "Word" referring to Christ. The only other references where it refers to Christ are in 1John 1:1; 5:7 and in Rev. 19:13.
1Pet.1:23 is not one of those references.

In context:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It is the word of God (the gospel) which is preached unto you. That is the written word. Verse 25 makes this very clear.

 

[kyredneck]

....this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It is the word of God (the gospel) which is preached unto you. That is the written word. Verse 25 makes this very clear.

DHK, look closer! I don't have a problem at all amplifying the passage to read, 'this is the Christ which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

The passage is saying the same thing as 2 Tim 1:10:

but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

The gospel TELLS about what the Living Word has done. It doesn't abolish death or impart life and immortality, it tells of it.

 

[DHK]

DHK, look closer! I don't have a problem at all amplifying the passage to read, 'this is the Christ which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

The passage is saying the same thing as 2 Tim 1:10:

but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

The gospel TELLS about what the Living Word has done. It doesn't abolish death or impart life and immortality, it tells of it.

The Word of God is alive; it is powerful:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Without the Word of God (and one's belief in it) one cannot be saved!
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[kyredneck]

The Word of God is alive; it is powerful:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word, Logos, as in:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. Jn 1

Without the Word of God (and one's belief in it) one cannot be saved!

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

I agree totally with all the above on the condition that 'saved' is not synonymous with 'the birth from above'.

We are indeed 'saved' by obedience to the gospel.

 

[DHK]

The word, Logos, as in:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. Jn 1


I agree totally with all the above on the condition that 'saved' is not synonymous with 'the birth from above'.

We are indeed 'saved' by obedience to the gospel.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these λογος ; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 2:40 And with many other λογος did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his λογος were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the λογος believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

The logos is the written word, by which a person is regenerated (1Pet.1:23), by which a person is saved (Acts 4:4). The Scripture is clear. Your Calvinism is in error here. Without the Word of God a person can neither be regenerated nor saved. The Word is absolutely essential.

 

[kyredneck]

'this is 'the gospel' which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

Really brother, don't you see the redundancy there?

 

[DHK]

'this is 'the gospel' which by the gospel is preached unto you'.

Really brother, don't you see the redundancy there?

I am not sure what you are referring to. The Word is absolutely necessary.
Here is what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--Paul "declared" the gospel to them. Through the gospel they were saved. He expounds on this theme, especially the resurrection, because there were some false teachers in the Corinthian church that denied the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Notice that it is Christ that is preached. How is Christ preached? He is preached by the preaching of the gospel. All that we know about Christ is contained within the pages of the Scriptures. Otherwise you are practicing a form of mysticism. The Holy Spirit does not come and magically regenerate a person without the Word of God. This is the teaching of 1Pet.1:23. One is born again by the Word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes DHK, Christ was absolutely necessary for eternal life. Obedience to the gospel on our part is absolutely necessary to 'lay hold' on the quality of eternal life in this time realm.

 

[salzer mtn]

DHK the scripture you referred too, the PB understands this as time salvation, meaning we are being saved.