Featured The Early Church on Speaking In Tongues

Thanks John!

ジョン - 私はあなたの徹底的な反論を感謝しています。私は前にこれらの引数を聞いたことがあるけど、私はまだあなたが感じるものを私に紹介してください思慮深い試みは、その詩の適切な解釈です...よく罪悪フリー、考え抜かれ、そして恋をしていたと思います！神はあなたに私の愛する弟を祝福！

 

Now you are getting there. A linguist/translator must interpret a single verse by the meaning of the words, grammar and historical context as I said. But we determine the meaning of a single word by how it is used throughout the literature. So interpreting the tongues in 1 Cor. 12-14 by the tongues in Acts 2, which are actual earthly languages, is to me the correct way to determine the meaning of glossa in Greek and "tongues" in English.

 

I've seen the dark underbelly of the imposter movement up close and personal.

The Scriptures are so clear on this subject.

Never the twain shall meet.

 

Very good! I can tell that this was actually done by translation software, since among other things one of the words for "love" is actually the Japanese word for "romantic love" (恋 :love2 rather than the usual word for love (愛) which is used in your last sentence.

But I appreciate the effort and the sentiment. :thumbs:

So, everyone, RD2 was writing in the Japanese tongue. For some fun, put his Japanese through translation software to get it back into English (tongues with interpretation), and then you'll see why I never use translation software in my work!

 

You said>RD - just a word of caution: In the very same chapter that it says "do not forbid to speak in tongues," it also says "he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself...he who prophesies [did I mention that I also have and use the gift of prophesy?] is greater than one who speaks in tongues...so that the church may be edified...try to excel in gifts that build up the church...I shall pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind...tongues are a sign for unbelievers; prophecy is for believers...all of these must be done for the strengthening of the church."

In other words, what you propose is a selfish gift, and is contradictory to what Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about in this chapter. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but I can't think of any other way to put it [apology is not needed .... I clearly see and understand what you are saying]. Remember that the gift of languages (tongues) in Acts 2 was used to edify the church, and to bring unbelievers to Christ. A "private prayer language" does not do this [I realize this, and have not disputed this with anyone]. The gifts are NOT meant for individual edification [why not? Is it not God's will that we be edified by the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, sent to stand alongside of us to insruct and guide and build us up?] ; we should ALWAYS consider our brethren above ourselves. And if your gift doesn't edify others, then what good is it? You've become a sounding gong or clanging cymbal.<

Actually the word "Edify" means:

*to teach (someone) in a way that improves the mind or character
*to instruct and improve especially in moral and religious knowledge : uplift; also : enlighten, inform

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary says this about what Jesus meant when He told us He was sending the Holy Ghost: (Luke 24:36-49) "Jesus appeared in a miraculous manner, assuring the disciples of his peace, though they had so lately forsaken him, and promising spiritual peace with every blessing. Many troublesome thoughts which disquiet our minds, rise from mistakes concerning Christ. All the troublesome thoughts which rise in our hearts at any time, are known to the Lord Jesus, and are displeasing to him. He spake with them on their unreasonable unbelief. Nothing had passed but what was foretold by the prophets, and necessary for the salvation of sinners. And now all men should be taught the nature and necessity of repentance, in order to the forgiveness of their sins. And these blessings were to be sought for, by faith in the name of Jesus. Christ by his Spirit works on the minds of men. Even good men need to have their understandings opened. But that we may have right thoughts of Christ, there needs no more than to be made to understand the Scriptures."

My belief is, we learn two ways. 1) through hearing what others teach us; and 2) from what we read in the word (2 Timothy 2:15 - AMP), "Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth."

There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING in the word to suggest that we only learn through what others teach and tell us. So the word "Edify" is not a selfish act. We edify other as well as self-edification! And edify is also seen in the following similar terms/words: educate, illume, illuminate, illumine, inspire, nurture, ennoble, enrich, lift, uplift; better, improve, regenerate, renew, transform; exalt, glorify, transfigure, etc.

As for sounding like the "Gong show" when using tongues, that was meant for the poor, unadvised use of tongues in a public gathering like church. If I were to speak in tongues in a group, who did not understand me, then I'd be like a clang and a gong to their ears.

But when we switch to the use of tongues, in our private prayer life and even while studying the Word, if we use the tongues to communicate our joy and praise to God and in turn the Holy ghost edifies, or teaches us while we sincerely attempt to learn more about Him ... just how can that be seen as a selfish act?

It is all semantics, brothers, and it depends on how one uses or intends the tongues to be used that makes the difference between one being self-edified, of just selfish, and it's awfully hard to be selfish when the thing you do is in the privacy of your home!

Shalom! :thumbs:

 

Yes, for sure, software has a problem. But I thought I send you something in your second language just for fun! Glad you like it!

 

Because scripture tells us in 1 Cor 12, in Paul's guidance about the gifts, that we are members of the body and should have care one for another; because scripture tells us in 1 Cor 14, in Paul's guidance about the gift of languages, that we should strive to edify the church.

EXCEPT when a word is used with modifiers. For example, if you say the word "edify", by itself it could mean anything. However, when you give it an object, such as "edify the church," that's an explicit instruction on who to edify.

Show us the passage that says we are to focus on edifying ourselves.

Your excerpt from Matthew Henry's commentary is compelling; but it's referring to the book of Luke. What does his commentary say about 1 Cor 12-14?

Really? You know exactly what you're saying? Or are you just giving utterance to your feelings? In which case, that's not a language; it's not a tongue. I groan and moan when I feel pain; I shout out when I feel joy. Am I speaking in tongues? Or am I merely giving utterance?

The thing you do is in the privacy of your own home ... which means you're not sharing it with anyone else....

 

>Show us the passage that says we are to focus on edifying ourselves.<

I think you must have just skipped this, because it was there, in my comment, but here it is again: (2 Timothy 2:15 - AMP), "Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth."

>Your excerpt from Matthew Henry's commentary is compelling; but it's referring to the book of Luke. What does his commentary say about 1 Cor 12-14?< Good question .... however, I was not pasting something on 1 Cor 12-14, but on that specific portion of scripture that MH Commentary discussed, and spoke quite well to!

>Really? You know exactly what you're saying? Or are you just giving utterance to your feelings? In which case, that's not a language; it's not a tongue. I groan and moan when I feel pain; I shout out when I feel joy. Am I speaking in tongues? Or am I merely giving utterance?<

WELL, I was afraid you'd ask this, and I am hesitant to answer, because you may not believe me, since you are dead set against tongues as a prayer language. Since you have self attached blinders, what I say next may not meant a thing to you, but, I am sure PnS and others wil confirm what I say as truth ... and that is when I speak in my prayer closet in my prayer language, it is selfedifying. In other words, no, I do not get an answer so to speak, meaning another interprets for me ... but, this is where I believe what Paul writes in Romans 8:26 (NLT) pertains to those of us using a private tongue, as we read, "And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for uswith groanings that cannot be expressed in words."

This is where I believe the only one that has to understand us is the Holy Ghost, and He takes our utterances straight to God. Does that mean our utterances get there quicker, or our understood better, or even given preferential treatment. No! But, regardless of how we pray, or what we say when we pray, it is what is in our heart that the Holy Ghost picks up on and carries directly to the ears of God and makes our unspoken desires and needs known!

Also, and I can't speak for others, there are many times when I am praying, going in and out of common language and tongues, that I get inspired, and either find scripture pertaining to a need, or God gives me the words of inspiration and turns them into a message.

Again, does this make me better than those who do not speak in a private tongue? NO, it doesn't! Does it give me a leg up when communicating with God? I doubt it! But, for me, it is an experience that those of you who do not desire to have this gift, can never understand or pretend to know!

I'd say to you skeptics, try it, and I gaurantee you'll never go back to the place where you judged s who use it. Try it and you will see why we use it. It is a siritual enhancement to our prayer exerience ...BUT, it is NOT for everyone, and not any kind of requirement!

May I suggest to those who are currently judging us, to just stop being judgemental. You only hurt yourselves. And here is what I think. If prayer language is of our own works, God will take care of us when we get to heaven. It isnt that deal breaker. We all know the deal breaker is rejecting Jesus as Savior.

HOWEVER, on the other hand, if private prayer language is of God, those who judge us and make fun of us and tell us we are going to hell, etc., will also face some form of corrective action once they get to heaven, for bad mouthing a true gift from the Spirit!

I know, and will never not know, that the tongues of Pentecost were a spiritually induced crash course in foreign languages giving those in the Upper Room the ability to communicate in the tongue of all those visiting the city on that holiday!

However, I still hold to the teaching, and it is a small teaching at that [like the gift itself is small], that God does grant those who seek it, a private prayer language. I've provided the verses to support that, and it is more for the user than the masses!

Don, thanks for your thorough breakdown and questions. However, I need to point out that while I am not pushing for anyone here to obtain the gift, I am asking that those who disagree with us who hold the gift, to let us be. In other words, "Live and ant be!" It is our problem, if you are right! It is your problem if you are wrong. And at least those of us with the gift aren't criticizing your group, or putting you down. We lovingy admit to having the gift, and leave it there, while your camp does everything POSSIBLE to try and change our minds, and that includes guilt trips, and name calling and mocking us!

I have not heard any of us who utilize tongues, ONCE mock your camp, but it can't be said for your camp when addressing our camp!

When it comes down to it, we love God like you do! We are no different than you. We are among you, but many are afraid to admit it because of the fear of ridicule, and that is a real shame!

Shalom! All my best in the coming Easter Season!

 

There are a couple of things you said that I feel need to be addressed. The first is the reference to "study to show thyself approved." You're trying to tie this verse to speaking in languages. Your logic progression is: building ourselves up is important; scripture says we are to study to build ourselves up; speaking in languages build us up; therefore, speaking in languages is scriptural.

Do you study to speak in languages? Do you study as you speak in languages? If the answer to either of those is no, then using this verse to justify speaking in languages is incorrect.

Second, you've twice made the statement "try it." Try speaking in an unknown language? Or try letting the Spirit speak? Please clarify this, because if we can try speaking in languages ourselves, it is not the Spirit working through us; and if we can try letting the Spirit speak, then you're indicating that we have to give God permission to speak to Himself through us.

It's not that I'm forbidding you from speaking in languages; it's that I don't believe what's being called "speaking in languages" today matches what we read about it in scripture, and therefore we must take caution that what is happening is of God, and not part of the many false prophets and those that would say "I am Him" that scripture tells us of a in the last times. And if I think a brother may be in danger of something that isn't scripturally correct, then it is our duty to speak with him about it, and not just let them be.

 

And before I forget: using Henry's commentary towards your topic was relevant to your topic; but was it relevant to speaking in languages? If that portion of scripture had nothing to do with the gifts, then we have to examine closely if we're using scripture out of context.

 

There is no such thing as a God given prayer language/tongues. Those who do this have been duped by satan into believing they have something special. No gift was ever given for personal use. No one ever healed themselves, preached to themselves, did charity to themselves, or any other of the gifts. Praying mindless prayers is not of God but satan.
To have the true gift the one using it has to understand what they are saying. 1Cor 14 makes that abundantly clear. The modern day tongues movement is nothing but a clear disclosure of being puffed up and full of worldly pride and used by satan as it denies scripture.

 

Was wondering where you were? Thanks for the same old smae old! :thumbs:

 

It is not for you as I am not debating you but the false doctrine. I have no bone to pick with you. It is for the Lord and those who seek truth. The Lord calls for truth which is not found in the modern day tongues movement. I would like all to take a look at one who came out of the movement once he realized its error and the truth about it.
http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/P/Pohl, Alfred - 17 Reasons Why I Left the Tongues Movement.pdf

 

Let me explain the difference?

I came accross a link that helps to explain the difference between the Gift of Tongues and the prayer language used by many in the church! The following is from this link and it is worth reading! http://www.newcovenantatlanta.com/Network/prayerlanguage.html

The Gift of Tongues

A ministry gift - this means that it is given to an individual for the primary purpose of encouraging others. This gift must always be accompanied by the gift of interpretation (1 Cor. 14:13, 28).

This gift manifests in a worship service with a distinct sound - a clear call; making it evident to the whole Body that it is a message FROM God TO the people. The gifts of tongues and interpretation are the equivalent of prophesy (1 Cor. 14:5).

The Prayer Language

The prayer language isn't a ministry gift. In other words, it's not a gift that is utilized to deliver messages from God to the church. The Prayer language is a grace gift that is utilized by the Holy Spirit to benefit the individual believer and deliver messages from the spirit of man to the heart of God (1 Cor. 14:4 / Jude 20 / Isaiah 28:11-12).

Praying in tongues is the evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, the overflow of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer (Acts 2:4 / Acts 9:10-12,17 [read in conjunction with 1 Cor. 14:18] / Acts 10:44-46 / Acts 19:1-6). Praying in tongues is the first sign (Greek - "Semeion" - indication of an event) of the Holy Spirit's overflowing out of your spirit. The above scriptures are events in the New Testament that show that the early Christians prayed in Tongues every single time they received the 'overflow' of the Holy Spirit.

Praying in tongues refreshes and edifies the believer - - if you're weary, when you're tired, when you don't feel like you can pray, worship, or give God any Glory, then allow the Rivers of Living Water in the form of Tongues to rise up and begin to flow up. You'll suddenly be refreshed, and your inner man (your spirit) will wake your soul up and you'll find refreshing coming from the Throne of God in your heart.

Praying in tongues helps us to pray for that which is unrevealed (mysteries) (1 Cor. 14:2). The Greek word for mysteries is "Musterion," which means "a hidden thing." The mysteries of the Kingdom are not hidden FROM the people of God, but the mysteries of the Kingdom of God are hidden FOR the people of God . The mysteries are hidden FROM the devil (1 Cor. 2:7-8). Therefore, when we pray in tongues, we're speaking mysteries (hidden secrets in the presence of God - hidden from the enemy for us), and we, because "life and death are in the power of our tongues" (Proverbs 18:21) release those mysteries into the earth and into our lives. When we pray in tongues, the secrets of God are being spoken and those things bubble up into our minds.Also, we pray for needs that we're unaware of. For example, Pastor Josh in Washington D.C. may need prayer, and since we're so far apart, I might not know it, but the Holy Spirit knows what he needs. So, if I am awakened in the middle of the night with a burden to pray for Pastor Josh, I simply pray in tongues until I sense a lifting of the burden. Since I have authority through Jesus Christ over all the power of the enemy, the words of my mouth declare that authority, even if I do not understand what the Holy Spirit is giving me to say.

Praying in tongues adds a new dimension to worship (1 Cor. 14:15 / Spiritual songs).

When you pray in tongues, you magnify God(Acts 2:11 / 1 Cor. 14:16-17). Therefore, you can sing in Tongues too. This is a beautiful way to give God glory, in His own love language.

Praying in tongues builds faith (Jude 20). The Word of God is the source of your faith (Romans 10:17), and the Word was inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16). Therefore, when you're in the Word your faith is being established (founded), and when you are praying in tongues, you are building up your most holy faith, not letting any other sound into your heart.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~raying: ***I surely don't think any of you should agree with this, but there are those of us who do believe in a prayer language, and I ask what does it hurt. At least PnS and I were couragous enough to admit we do, but it doesn't hinder our ability to fellowship with any of you because we are not here on the board trying to convert anyone of you to what we believe! I hope the above and the link from whence it came, helps to shine some light on what and why we believe like we do! Shalom! *** :thumbs:

 

Great explanation, thanks for the link!:thumbsup:

 

RD2, you may want to rethink this link. (A rhyme!) It is apparently a homosexual church, or at least it says it is "LGBT Affirming."

Frankly, I don't think any of these references are about a "prayer language," but I must object most strongly to the idea that especially Jude or Isaiah refer to a "prayer language." To make "pray in the Spirit" mean tongues is a huge leap of linguistics and exegesis. And "another tongue" in Isaiah (Heb. lashawn) has no evidence linking it to "unknown tongue." It clearly means "language." And there is no evidence that I know of that the Jews of Isaiah's day or Jesus' day spoke in a private prayer language (a modern idea).

I object strongly to this also. There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible for the sign of the baptism/filling of the Spirit being tongues of any kind. The clear sign of the baptism/filling (compare the terms in Acts; they mean the same) is speaking for Christ boldly:
Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

A clear statement that those who speak in tongues are superior to us poor believers who don't. Surely you know better than this. Some of the greatest Christians ever, people used greatly by God, never spoke in tongues: Moody, Torrey, Rice, many others.

 

Thanks!

That will teach me for not checking on the organization! :BangHead: Still, the ideals presented here are similar to what I see as the difference between the gift of tongues [which YOU know I do not advocate or even support, nor do I say you have to have tongues as an evidence] and a prayer language!

And if you had read my entire post you would have read the following -

***I surely don't think any of you should agree with this, but there are those of us who do believe in a prayer language, and I ask what does it hurt. At least PnS and I were couragous enough to admit we do, but it doesn't hinder our ability to fellowship with any of you because we are not here on the board trying to convert anyone of you to what we believe! I hope the above and the link from whence it came, helps to shine some light on what and why we believe like we do! Shalom! ***

I do not advocate tongues as the proof of being spirit filled. You know that! I was merely sharing what they described as the difference between a gift tongues and a prayer language. The fact is, I was having a difficult tine explaining the difference between the two, and this was to the point!

As for the GLBT, that was unfortunate, but like Zaac would say, this is why the church is here to witness and minister to this group! I would have to ask the pastor what he means, before I condemn their approach to the GLBT culture and ministry style. After pointing this out, and reading further, I do not see that they are approving this group, just reaching out and ministering to them by opening their doors and preaching the truth.

If they are accpeting gays and letting them remain in their sin after being born-agin, then shame on them! Nevertheless, I do not read that into what they say! Still, I was only sharing their excellent snap shot showing the differences.

YOU should KNOW by now that I do not, and NEVER will advocate tongues as anything mandatory. And I said this many times, it does not put a us in superior position to you. If anything, it makes us less than, and more subservient, in order to be supportive to your needs as part of the body! One part of the body is not better than another. The toe can't be greater than the ear, and you know what I believe, so shame on you :smilewinkgrin: for trying to make an issue out of a non issue!

Still, thanks for pointing this out [the GLBT] as I stand corrected and embarrassed for not reading about their beliefs. I was only interested in the good defintion of one gift over the other!

As I showed in this post, the gift of tongues is quite different than having a prayer language! And if you don't have a PL, that doesn't make you less than or better than me. We are and always will be brothers, on the same playing field, fighting the same battle, moving toward the same end, heaven!

Shalom! :applause:

 

RD2 - what John was pointing out was that organization's error. As you said, if they're allowing people to remain in their sin, then they're teaching error; and yet, you're willing to accept their "good" definition of 'prayer language'. How do you *know* that this teaching of theirs is good, while the other is error? They apparently believe both are good.

Are you so focused on finding support that you've possibly developed blinders?

 

Um, yeah, here is whose explanation you are praising, with his male "spouse": http://thecovenantnetwork.com/apostles/

 

I think this proves what I have been saying. Here is a group of people who are being led by satan as they accept homosexuality. They claim the same prayer gift as some. That would mean that the gift is NOT of God since God does not gift satan's children. While I do believe there are some true believers who do this they are not doing it by God as is clear in the related link.
Simply put, there is no such thing as a prayer language, just deceived individuals who are caught up in this false doctrine. Sincere, yes, but so was UZZA in 2 Sam. 6:1-7 and 1Chron 13:9-12.

I would offer the same request as before. If those who claim this "gift" love their brothers and sisters so much then make a recording of your so called prayer language and post it here so we can veryfy it by taking it to three different so called interpreters. If they all agree on what is said we can then recant our claims of this not being of God and also seek the same thing. :thumbs: Here is your chance to prove once and for all that this is of God.