Featured The Early Church on Speaking In Tongues

Even worse, this "apostle" has a male "spouse": http://thecovenantnetwork.com/apostles/. These people clearly fooled you about what they are. Why? Simply because they speak in tongues and you thought they had a good explanation. Shouldn't that say something to you about the legitimacy of what you are advocating here?

If you'll look back at a previous post of mine, I listed many aberrant groups in the past that have advocated speaking in tongues. If anything, the Charismatic movement is even worse--something you yourself decried! (See my unanswered post #55 at: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=92833&page=6)

No offense, but I simply can't understand why a Baptist would want to be publicly aligned with such groups in the past and present. If I did speak in tongues, tell you what, I'd sure keep quiet about it rather than be mistaken for one of those weird, aberrant groups that claim to be Christian: the Shakers, the Irvingites, the Latter Rain Movement (kicked out of even the Church of God) and so many others.

Again, forgive me, but why are you defending it so strongly if you don't want to convert anyone to your position? Isn't that what debate is about, proving the other wrong?

In my experience, every single tongues speaker I've ever known has tried to convert me to speaking in tongues. Once down in Tokyo a Japanese woman came up to me and tried to get me to speak in tongues, even taught me how to get started! She was from a Japanese cult called the イエス之御霊教会, "Spirit of Jesus Church." Check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Jesus_Church

So if weird cults and homosexual churches and bizarre groups like the Shakers can speak in tongues, why is it so good? I think this is more than a "guilt by association" argument. It's a "weird groups do this, so why is it Biblical" argument. It doesn't spiritually help these heretics at all that they speak in tongues. How could it help me?

That makes you the rare exception to tongues speakers, as witness your quote from the homosexual church. Almost always, they teach that tongues is the proof of Spirit fullness/baptism.

Surf a little more next time. The "apostle" is "married" to another male "apostle." :tonofbricks:

And "whoops" from you for posting quotes you don't agree with!

I believe you are a good man, just badly mistaken about your "prayer tongue" (a term and practice completely unknown in church history until the Charismatic movement.)

 

It's Mon. morning in Japan, and we have to go to Sapporo for visa renewal and will be gone for two days. Have a nice thread without me. :type:

 

The folowing is from Dave Robersons book -"The Walk of the Spirit - The Walk of Power"

Here are some extracts from Dave Roberson's free e-book on praying in the holy spirit - highly recommended.

Page 14 - "Once I asked the Lord, “Why did You give us such a peculiar language to use in prayer?” This is what He spoke to my spirit:

“Among men a language has never come into existence that carries the vocabulary to express everything I am in you through Christ Jesus. Since there was no language with such a vocabulary, I had to create my own and loan it to you while you are on the earth. I just loan it to you till you come up to Heaven; then it will cease.

“Meanwhile, you know in part, and I know everything — My entire redemption plan for all eternity. Whenever the devil comes against you, don’t worry about it. Because of your infirmities, I will start making intercession for you according to that plan. And even though you only know in part, I will pray the part you need.”

Judith - you wanted to hear singing in the spirit [tongues], well here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR5oKjCCh-M

**** NOTE to my critics - I am not advocating singing in the spirit. While I have heard it, and at time participated in it, prayer language is my only contention! ****



The Great Exchange: Trading Our Plan for God’s Plan - "There is a supernatural exchange that takes place as we pray in other tongues. Look at what Romans 8:27,28 says: And he [the Holy Spirit] that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Page 15 - "What does it mean, “he that searcheth the hearts”? It means that the Holy Spirit continually searches your heart with the intention of removing everything that is contrary to the will of God, your Father the Planner. Then the Holy Spirit replaces it with the plan He heard for your personal life before the beginning of time when God formulated His plan for you. He prays the perfect plan of God into your spirit so you not only know what you are called to do but how to fulfill that call in the perfect timing, will, and power of God.

God trades your natural plans and ideas for His through the supernatural medium of exchange, tongues for personal edification. You can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that as you yield to that divine exchange, all things will indeed work together for good for you, because you love God and are called according to His purpose.

He Helps Us Find Our Calling - However, you can’t discover the purpose God has called you to fulfill just by reading His Word. Now, you can find out in the Word everything you need to know pertaining to the inheritance that belongs to every believer. You can learn all about salvation, healing, prosperity, righteousness, Heaven, the blood, and ministry offices. But you cannot find out from the Word alone what God has called you to fulfill as an individual member of the Body of Christ.

There is no “Book of Roberson” that I can turn to for personal instruction. I have to discover my divine calling by revelation through the personal inward work of the Holy Spirit.

Page 16 - No one knows our calling better than the Holy Spirit. He was in the Presence of God when our call was first planned. That’s why He brought His supernatural language with Him when He came to live inside us. We’re just too ignorant to know how to pray about our call. So His great reservoir of wisdom and counsel resides within our spirits, just waiting to be released through tongues.

The book is FREE, and if you want to read more go to the ink at - http://www.daveroberson.org/Media/7/WOSWOP Portrait 10.pdf

 

If there are Christians who want to mumble gibberish and pretend that they are praying in their private time. More power to them.

 

Well, thank...you're not half bad yourself. And may you have journey mercies as you travel! See you soon!

Here are some thoughts on the above:

1) I will never try to convert you, or anyone else, to something you vehemently oppose!

2) I do not disagree that there are aberrant groups in all phases of Christianity. In fact, there are Baptist churches that now minister to, ordain and conduct weddings for gays.

3) Speaking about aberrant - the Baptist has the shame of WESTBORO to deal with daily. And then Bob Jones University and their Way to Conservative teachings!

4) You and others think my PL is disgusting, and some call it a sin ... well; I've conducted polls on drinking, smoking and cussing, and candid members have spoken, especially about drinking and smoking.

NOW I happen to believe drinking is a disgusting social act, and a sin. Do you see me debating you folks that drink? Do you see me telling you that you are going to hell, and not following Scripture?

I happen to think smoking is disgusting, and not only extremely harmful to the body of the smoker, but to those who breathe in second-hand smoke. I know this for a fact [the harm of second-hand smoke], as I developed adult-onset asthma from being in a home of smokers for 19 years. Now I pay for their disgusting habit by having asthma attacks.

Then one more thought for the ROAD ... when I pray in tongues while driving, at least I don't put myself and the general public at risk by driving under the influence or being distracted by trying to light a cigarette, or find the hot ashes that fell unto my lap, or caused a forest fire by carelessly discarding a still hot cigarette butt! jUST SOME FOR FOR THOUGHT!

5) FINALLY, I DON'T CONSIDER THIS DEBATING OR DEFENDING my PL ... I am merely being candid about something I do. The one thing you will find out about me is that I am candid. What you see is what you got/get! If people on the board are not ashamed of their smoking, cussing, or drinking ... why in the wide-world of sports would I, or should I be ASHAMED of speaking in a prayer language?

Maybe Zaac is correct when he says this board is filled with the "Good ol' boys" and hypocritical on some issues. One sister judges me and says I'm duped by the devil ... but it is clear she has an anger problem that keeps her from speaking to others [who she disagrees with] in a civil, loving manner. Other judges me for not following Scripture, while they sip down their evening glass of wine or beer and put the cigarette out in the ashtray next to their PC!

Come on...none of you have a bead on what is true and right. The fact is there is an awful lot about our awesome, supernatural God that we will never know until we reach heaven. We are all doing our best with what we have, yet there are those of you who think you have all the answers.

And BTW - you think I am trying to convince and convert some to tongues, but in truth, those who debate me, are doing a similar thing, as they try their best to convert me to their way of seeing the horrors and sinful ways of,
Pentecostalism.

I am perfectly fine with where I am, and I am not about to change unless GOD tells me to! So, I don't see this as a debate, just a difference of opinions on what some call sinful and others call enhancing their walk! God loves us all! Shalom!

 

Had a busy but productive trip.

But will you try to convert a fence sitter? That is why some oppose your PL here on the BB. We feel that a "prayer language" will actually hinder spiritual growth, and therefore feel that touting a PL will harm Baptists.

You miss the point. If a church is truly Baptist, it will turn out okay, since a Baptist distinctive is "The Bible as the Sole Rule of Faith and Practice." If a church follows this they will not be a "homosexual church" or a Westboro church. The Baptist model is a good one that usually produces good churches, but the tongues-speaking groups have models that produce aberrant churches: the Latter Rain model, the various Charismatic models, the cult models such as the Japanese Spirit of Jesus Church, even the traditional Pentecostal model.

With the aberrant groups I've mentioned, they speak tongues as part of their aberrant behavior, and even because of it!

I'll have to call you on this. I thought I knew BJU well, but I've never heard of such a teaching, and the only place that comes up with such in a Google search is your post! So what is this about? (And by the way, BJU is not Baptist but interdenominational.)

You misrepresent me. I have never called your prayer language disgusting (for a reason), nor do I drink alcohol, nor do I smoke. You're shooting blanks here, irrelevant to the current subject.

Let me get this straight. Why do you need to be candid? Isn't it a "private" prayer language? If you don't want to convert anyone, but only care about what God thinks, it seems to me you wouldn't even mention it here, especially since so many like myself have seen their ministry hurt by tongues! No offense, but I see no point in your being candid on the BB about it if your goal is not to justify yourself somehow.

 

I'm not commenting on all of this post, but I do want to say: folks, be advised that Dave Roberson claims to have revelation from God in addition to the Bible. See his most recent Teaching Letter of April 2014 here: http://www.daveroberson.org/letters.aspx# (The PDF file does not allow me to copy and paste the relevant words.)

This "extra revelation" is contrary to the Baptist distinctive of the Bible as the sole foundation of faith and practice. Roberson (and apparently righteousdude2) would have us believe that the Bible is not enough, we need extra-Biblical revelation. (Please remember the difference between the doctrine of revelation, and the idea that the Lord can lead me through you--these are very different.)

Prov. 30:6--"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

As a linguist I have to say that Roberson is spouting nonsense here. A human language does have the vocabulary (and grammar, though Roberson doesn't realize a language has both, apparently) to express all that a human being can understand about what God is through Christ Jesus. There is no need for a "tongue" to be given especially for that. Our problem is that we don't process enough of what we know about God through Christ, not that we need a tongue to give us more information.

 

I have to wonder about a doctrine that teaches the all knowing Holy Spirit needs to speak to the all knowing God, (in other words speak to Himself) about something already known, via a human intermediary, in an unknown language. Bizarre.

 

Very well put!

In one place in a book by the guy quoted (and I suppose recommended) by RD2 Dave Roberson, he talks about the Holy Spirit "listening intently" to the Father while He explained about a believer's life. You're exactly right, "Bizarre." And ridiculous. And insulting to the omniscient God.

 

I would tend to agree, and wholeheartedly so with this, ITL and John, but I've got to question, why does someone need to either defend or promote this practice on a forum he knows it is not accepted?

 

YOu are do a CLASSIC SPIN Job!

You have done a lot of splitting hairs, and that is fine. You know my heart; I've been open about what I believe.

I am not out to CONVERT anyone, including those you say are sitting on a fence!

The rest of your statement(s) are same old, same old ... so I am not even going to answer as it is merely rehashing things I've already said!

Once again, and let me make this perfect clear [hey, how'd you like my impersonation of Richard Nixon?] .... I am not supporting that homosexual church or Roberson! Nor a Haggee, or Hinn, or TBN, or an Osteen, or for that ....a Rick Warren, who most of your tout and think highly of.

I am only saying that I have a PL, and that it is for me to use; for me to answer for [if it's wrong with God]; and I don't give a hoot owls "Hoot" if anyone of you have it or not!

It is awfully strange, in my way of seeing things, that usually the one who speaks in tongues thinks they are better than the non tongue believer. YET, on this board, it is not PnS or myself judging any of you, but YOU all judging us! It isn't us saying you are the lesser of us because we have a PL, but you folks putting us down. Never once have I judged or said you all need a PL or the tongue's gift to please God. Even so, you all have done your best to make me feel less than any of you because I have something I'm not hiding in a closet. Would you all rather have me walk among you, living a lie, pretending to be a cookie cutter reflection of you? Would you rather have me lie about how I feel about tongues and prayer languages? You are all one strange group of believers! I just find that an interesting twist!

Is it scriptural? In my eyes and way of thinking, it is as scriptural as those on this board who think it's okay to smoke and drink and go to casinos, or demand complete submissiveness from their women; or are opposed to a woman preacher; or live and die by the teachings of Calvin or follow the Armenian way of life; or believe in predestination over free will! The pre, post or mid rapture. And which version of the Bible God would rather have us read from? :wavey:

The way I see it, Baptists come in all shapes [most are a little overweight], colors, intellect, academic qualities, heights, street smarts, cultures, languages, social backgrounds, etc. We just learn to accept one another as a unigue part of the body that God placed us in. If, HOWEVER, we start rejecting one another because of the type or kind of Baptist church they came out of, well .... we will be in a pretty sad state of affairs!

None of you on this board are perfect ... let alone does anyone have ALL the answers [Gee; I hope I didn't step on anyone's toe?] to all the questions .... and I venture to say that there is as much love in this prayer language Baptist as there is in anyone of you who have tried to call me on the carpet and put me under your spiritual feet as a less than perfect door mat! God knows where I fit in on this body, and some of you may be surprised to discover that you may not be where you thunk you've been all your life!

With that said. God bless you John!

 

Glad to know this. Then I still don't know why you keep posting about it, especially on a thread that is not about a private prayer language.

I didn't figure you were supporting anyone except Roberson. I'm puzzled as to why, if you don't support him, you posted such a long quote. And for the record, I don't think much of Rick Warren.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I'm not judging you, or if I were I'd be saying, "You're a lousy Christian because you have a PL" or "You're a heretic" or "You're inferior." I've said none of these things and have not judged you, but only reacted to things you have said, and called you to task for the lengthy quotes you have posted from heretics (and this you have done, perhaps without checking them out well enough).

It's not lying or pretending if you simply don't talk about it. We just don't understand why you want to do so on a Baptist Board. In fact, the thread wasn't even about a "prayer language," but the historical use of tongues (to which subject you have not yet contributed), and here you come explaining all about your private tongue. :saint:

There are many things I am or know or believe that I don't talk about here. Why would I? I've only ever met one current BB denizen in person, and he's with my mission board, an old friend.

Okay, take care.

 

You know what I think!

Unfortunately, I wasn't clear, in that I was not accusing you of saying something about me, but making a generalization as to the others...

So this is what I think - I appreciate being able to chat with you...we are not that far apart of much, and surely nothing that would keep either of us from Glory!

As for those who came in to cause division. I've seen this in the past, and never cud figure out why a person or group would want to change a congregation, when they could go down the street to a full Gospel, tongue talking, pew jumping, flag waving, hands raised church?

I ed this happen in a church, I was youth pastor at, and the congregation split down the middle. And while I had my PL gift and certainly wasn't opposed to the pastor and group that moved in the gift of tongues, when he left and half the church followed; I remained with the church for the sake of the kids. Mind you, NO one knew I had a PL; they just knew that the pastor hired me, and when the conference sent in an interim pastor, I was fired. And when that happened, the kids who remained at the church when it split, decided to seek out a new church, leaving this once huge church only a hand full of kids. The effort by some to change the church caused a massive split; and the bias of the interim towards me, finished off what the tongues movement couldn't do: destroy a fantastic youth group.

So, I've seen it happen, and I've been a victim of the fall out. The next time it happens, can I suggest you sit the group down and give them a list of local churches they would find more accepting of their tongues, and ask them to move along! Shalom!

 

Okay, take care.

 

Can those here who have private prayer languages write down some things that you say and come up with a working grammar or lexicon for it?

That would be helpful for those of us who are not blessed with this gift be able to discern their veracity.

 

They have been recorded and analyzed. It can probably found through a search on google or YouTube

 

Did you check that before you posted it, or did you just assume?

Here ...

Tongues with Interpretation (???)

... make some sense out of that!

Better yet, listen to what Ben Alexander says about this jibberish (except for the part near the end where he says baptism is for remission of sins -- >>Sigh<< Can't have everything, I guess).

Exposing Satan's Power: Speaking in "tongues"

 

The tongues that goes on in churches today is gibberish. It is ungodly. The interpretation that ges on with it is just as made up as the other. It is all faciful thinking and blind allegiance to that which works to build up emotions but has no real value.

Unless the result of tongues is that someone understands the gospel who could not otherwise then it is a silly myth that has no place in our churches.

 

Every linguist who has researched glossalalia has come up with the conclusion that it is gibberish and has not the structure of a genuine language.

William Samarin researched modern tongues extensively, finding that they had no syntax or semantics, that they were "characterized by strings of usually simple syllables that are not matched systematically with any semantic system" (The New Charismatics, by Richard Quebedeaux, p. 202).

Wayne Oates, in "A Socio-Psychological Study of Glossalalia" (in Tongue Speaking in Biblical, Historical and Psychological Perspective), concluded that "Distortions of speech characteristic of early childhood are submerged as a child matures, but these distortions reappear in glossalalia when an individual tries to verbalize long-repressed religious convictions for the first time; he reverts to an early stage of communicative development" (ibid, 201).

 

Would say the Tongues in the NT were used to proclaim jesus as messiah on pentacost, and to give forth revelatory information that confirmed the Apostolic teachings concerning salvation!
us!
NO personally prayer language tongues in Bible, as we already have the Holy spirit and jesus interceding for us before throne of the Father!

Tongues had their time and purpose, has been fulfilled, no longer given by God!