Featured Why do you sin?

I am shooting from the hip here, but here goes....

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


In the beginning, while Adam and Eve walked in the midst of the Garden, they were in communion, in harmony with God. They had the Light and believed in the Light, and were children of the Light. Yet, in due time, Eve was beguiled by that old serpent, and she gave to Adam, and he ate, and their eyes were open to their nakedness. They had been in the Light, yet they were blind to their nakedness. Eve saw that it was a tree to be desired...lust...and she ate of that and injested that which she lusted for. It was then that they girded themselves with fig leaves to cover their nakedness. Men have done this ever since. They have always tried to hide their sins. Yet, even our righteousness is as filthy rags, then what about our sins? God then came to them and searched them out. Adam daily communed with God, yet after he sinned, he fled from Him....fled further into darkness because he had no desire to stand before God as he once did. God sought him out and Adam stated, "we were naked and hid ourselves", to wit God replied, "Who told you you was naked?" To make a long story short, God drove them out of the Garden, and away from the Light into darkness.


Now, we are born into this darkness which God thrusted Adam into. We are in this darkness until God shines that marvelous Light into our hearts. When He does this, it is "game over". He draws us unto Himself by this marvelous Light. While you have the Light, believe in the Light, that you may become the children of the Light.


We sin because we are in darkness, void of the Light. We can not see where we are going, and we stumble about, being devoid of this Light.


We sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners because we first sinned. An apple tree is an apple tree as a sappling. It produces apples as evidence it is an apple tree. We sin as evidence we are sinners.

 

Right...we have a sin nature.

 

Could have saved a lot of writing by just saying you believe we sin because we are sinners.

Again, scripture itself PROVES you do not have to have a sin nature to sin.

Satan was created perfect, but he sinned.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The fallen angels, and Adam and Eve were created "very good", yet they were all able to sin.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

There is not a single word in the curse that says God cursed man so that he would henceforth be a sinner.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God said the ground would be cursed and bring forth thorns and thistles, and that by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread until thou return unto the ground, but he did not say a word about our nature being cursed.

In fact, the word of God says man is made upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" shows that this is speaking of all men, the word "many" shows that man becomes sinful when he commits his own sin, not because of Adam's single sin.

The scriptures also show that man is still made in the image of God.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

The scriptures say that to this very day men (all men) ARE made after the similitude or likeness of God present tense.

There is no evidence we are born sinful, in fact, there is evidence that we are made upright and clean, but that all men choose to go out and sin, and this is how men become filthy and sinners.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Again, men are not born filthy, but all men have "gone aside" and "become filthy". The word "become" shows movement, it shows a progression from good to evil.

The fact that all men sin does NOT prove we are born with a sin nature. You do not have to have a sin nature to sin. And in fact the scriptures do not support that we are born with a sin nature.

 

What does the bible mean when it says I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me?

 

I found this neat article on the sin nature:

As we continue to grow in our understanding of grace, it is essential that we really understand this concept of “sin nature”. What is it and how does it apply today? I believe most churches teach a wrong concept of “sin nature”, and in doing so, many people are trapped in a fear-based, anxiety-provoking understanding of sin.
What is a “Sinful Nature”?
The Bible says we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin. We don’t learn to sin; rather, it comes natural to us since birth. When we come into this world, our spirits are dead and we must be born again (John 3:3-7).
Today, under the New Covenant, there are only two states of existence: the natural and the spiritual. This is how Paul describes those two states by comparing Adam and Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:47-49,
The first man was of the earth, made of dust;
The second Man is the Lord from heaven.
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust;
And as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
To move from the natural (state of Adam) to the spiritual (state of Christ), you must be born again. Once you are born again, your flesh has been crucified. According to Galatians 2:20, it is no longer you who live, but Christ in you.
The Sin Nature is Dead in Christ
Once you have put your faith in Christ and are born again, your sin nature is dead. You have died to your sinful nature and are now alive “in Christ”. You are now a new creation:
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
Your old self, your old nature has “passed away.” All things “have become new.” It’s a finished work!
You no longer have a sinful nature. You have the nature of Christ inside of you.
Sinful Nature versus Flesh
Today’s modern teaching of the “sinful nature” is based on some recent translations of the Bible. Modern translations like the New International Version (NIV) and New Living Translation (NLT) use the term “sinful nature” throughout the New Testament. However, it’s more of an interpretation than a translation. In both the King James Version (KJV) and New King James Version (NKJV) of the Bible, there is no use of “sinful nature”. It’s only in newer translations.
So, what is this word being used for “sinful nature”?
The Greek word that NIV and NLT translate “sinful nature” is the word sarx. It is defined as “the flesh, the meat of an animal, the body (as opposed to the soul or spirit)”.
The KJV and NKJV version simply translate sarx as “flesh”. It’s your body, the natural part of you that experiences this reality through the five senses–taste, touch, smell, hear and see. The flesh is very different than the sinful nature.
Take Romans 7:18 for example and read both the NIV and the NKJV:
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out” (Romans 7:18, NIV).
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find” (Romans 7:18, NKJV).
Why is this important? Your flesh is this tangible part of you where sin resides. Sin lives in your flesh. But, if you believe that sin in your soul and spirit, that your nature is to sin, then your identity is all about sin management. But, if you can believe that your nature is good, that you are a child of God, then there is hope to live a victorious life. You can conquer the flesh, because Christ did.
But, I still sin.
So do I. As long as you are alive, your flesh will be prone to sin. But, God has somehow uniquely separated your soul and spirit from your body when you become a believer. Your body is dead to sin. Romans 8:10 says, “If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” In Christ, God considers your body dead because of sin. So, we are encouraged to do the same: “Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:11).
We no longer have a sinful nature. It has been crucified and buried with Christ. Our new nature is the nature of Christ. He lives inside of us. If we can truly understand and believe that Christ lives in us and that we have a new nature in him, then it will empower us to walk in freedom. With the nature of Christ in us, we can overcome fear, anxiety and panic attacks.
Prayer: Father, show me that I am a new creation in Christ, that my old sinful nature has been crucified, dead and buried. I am alive in you.

 

We were born with the propensity to sin which we received from our earthly parent who caused sin to enter into the world and was passed on through all of us.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The fact that we all die (including infants sometimes) proves that the promise to mankind of sin and death is passed on to the entire human race else innocent babies wouldn't die.

God never promised animals unending life, only Adam and Eve.


HankD

 

We sin simply because we are not God only God is good.

Our sin proves we are not God and we need Him to be good as Him.

We sin when we turn away from God and not toward Him, when we worshiper the creation over the Creator —who is forever praised. Amen.

God created us in His likeness not to be God and in Him we are complete. God did not recreate Himself it is against His will so we are not good as Him and can sin.

Adam should of turned to God for wisdom not to do what he was told not to do.


James 1:
Trials and Temptations

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verses 16 and 19; and in 2:1, 5, 14; 3:10, 12; 4:11; 5:7, 9, 10, 12, 19.] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

9 Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10 But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. 11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

There is a really bizarre answer one or perhaps more individuals give to your question.

I for one will not repeat it.

The obvious answer is that David was keenly aware and in touch with the manner of being he is/was, so much so that he concludes he was that way from conception.

HankD

 

Well, this is the most famous proof text of those who want to prove we are born sinners, but I believe that can easily be shown false. First, look at the verse in context.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Is David speaking about Adam's sin here? NO, he is clearly confessing HIS sin.

There is controversy over vs. 5. Verse 5 is not speaking of David, but his mother. Substitute any other words and this becomes clear.

Behold, I was beaten in anger, and in wrath did my mother strike me.

Now, that may seem silly, but it does demonstrate that this verse is speaking of David's mother, not David.

Is David blaming his mother for his sin with Bathsheba? NO, but David is confessing what a lowly sinner he is.

David had two sisters, whose father was Nahash the Ammonite.

1 Chr 2:15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.

Abigail and Zeruiah were David's sisters, but their father was not a Jew, it was Nahash the Ammonite. It was strictly forbidden to marry or have children with a non-Jew, so in this respect, David's mother might have been considered a "polluted" woman.

David was the "black sheep" of his family. He was treated poorly by his older brothers (the story of Goliath), and when the prophet Samuel came and asked Jesse to present his sons, TWICE Jesse did not bring David forth. All the older brothers were invited to this feast, while David had to keep the sheep. Only when Samuel insisted did Jesse finally bring David forth.

1 Sam 16:10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.

Again, David seemed to be the black sheep in the family, and there seems to be some shame attached to him. He also did not look like his older brothers, they were tall and handsome, David was short and ruddy. So, this argues they were born to another mother than David's mother.

So, because of his mother, David was an outcast, a black sheep. And I believe this is what David is saying, he is saying he truly is the "dog" his own family had always said he was. But he is not blaming his mother for his sin, and he is not blaming Adam. That would not be a confession at all.

It could also be that David was conceived out of wedlock, but scholars are not certain.

 

Hank, my answer may seem bizarre, but it is supported by scripture. David was born to a different mother than his seven older brothers, and his mother had relations with a non-Jew which was strictly forbidden. David was treated poorly by his own family, including his own father who did not present him twice when Samuel requested to see all his sons. So, it appears that Jesse was ashamed of David, and the only reason that can be shown from scripture is because his mother had two daughters with a non-Jew.

It is really not bizarre at all, this sort of thing happens every single day.

 

You know, it is possible that Jesse messed around with David's mother and HAD to marry her.

I am not saying that is what happened, but that could be what David is saying in Psa 51:5.

But one thing we know David is not saying in Psa 51:5, he is not saying all men are born sinners. He is not speaking of any man but himself in this Psalm. People are reading Original Sin into this scripture when it is not there.

 

The only persons who have not sinned are babies and little children.

Little children do things that are wrong, but they are not held accountable because they do not understand their actions.

The reason Adam and Eve spiritually died when they ate the forbidden fruit was because now they had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Why did God allow the little children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the promised land? Because they had no KNOWLEDGE between good and evil in that day.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

It is plain as day if folks would just read the scriptures and throw away all the false presuppositions they carry around.

It is the knowledge of good and evil that makes men accountable, but men are not born knowing this right away, it takes time to mature. But once a man understands right from wrong he is accountable and is judged "a sinner" when he knowingly and willingly sins.

 

Is there [any] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Is there [any] righteousness with man? Man forbid.

Our unrighteousness is imputed to us via Adam...the first Adam...

Our righteousness is imputed to us via Jesus Christ...the last Adam...

 

I believe it is bizarre, you had to substitute words in scripture to even make it an unlikely possibility.

There is not one word in scripture as to David's mother, her name, her history, her deeds and birthright as far as I know. If you do know her name, genealogy and history from scripture please show me these facts and also the sin of which she is accused.

It is true that there are conjectures from non scriptural sources such as the Talmud, but the Talmud is not scripture.

It is not uncommon for households to have family intra-animosities such as David's family e.g. Joseph and his brothers.

As to David's testimony as to the knowledge of the depth of his sin - he is not alone.

HankD

 

if something 'takes time to mature', then something is inside the shell where it is maturing.
an empty space cannot have anything inside it that needs maturing to bloom.
therefore the human body at birth contains a sin nature in it that will 'mature' (your words) at the first instance of a willful and voluntary act of sin.
your own argument shuts you up, a.c.

 

God himself tells us why he had all the women and children killed, so they wouldn't lead Israel into idolatry.

Deu 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

If the women and children were allowed to live, they would lead the Israelites into idolatry.

We can see this in our very own culture, since the 60s, millions of blacks especially have converted from Christianity to Islam, Mohammad Ali being the most famous example, his father was a Methodist, but he was raised a Baptist by his mother.

Question #2 is ridiculous, we are not allowed to murder children, even if that did get them into heaven.

Now, I hope you will remember these answers, as I have been asked these same exact questions about a dozen times in the past and have answered them many times.

 

Yes, man did change when he ate the forbidden fruit, he now KNOWS between good and evil. This is inherited.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Knowing good and evil does not make man evil, for God himself has this knowledge and is not evil. However, this knowledge makes man accountable for his sin, he has no excuse.

That said, the scriptures show little children are not held accountable until they mature to a point to know good from evil.

I already showed you Deu 1:39 that shows the little children of Israel were allowed to enter the promised land because they did not yet know between good and evil. There are a few other verses that support this as well;

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows that little children do not at first know to refuse evil and choose good. By the way, that refutes Total Inability, because it shows we can refuse evil, and choose good. :thumbs:

Another verse that shows God does not punish little children because they do not yet know between good and evil is Jonah 4:11

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God implies that he SHOULD spare Nineveh in verse 11. Why? Because there were more than 120,000 little children there who could not discern between their right hand and left hand, and much cattle.

God cares for his creation in verse 10, and in verse 11 he argues it is JUST and RIGHT to spare Nineveh, because there are many innocent children there. They are just as innocent as the cattle that cannot comprehend sin.

Jesus also showed that little children are not sinners.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus told his disciples they must be "converted" and "become as little children" to enter heaven. Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become wicked sinners to enter heaven? Absurd!

Jesus said little children have personal angels who ALWAYS behold the face of his Father;

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Is Jesus saying wicked sinners have personal angels that always behold the face of the Father in heaven? Again, Absurd!

The scriptures do not teach that babies and little children are sinners, they teach the exact opposite.

 

Your first question is answered in your second question. It wasn't that children were as guilty as the adults, though by their sin nature they certainly are imperfect. But as you said, it is more merciful to kill them before they become diabolically evil -- and in those days, as we can seem from the religious practices of the peoples surrounding Israel, diabolical evil was commonplace.

To me the concept of the guilt of children prior to a certain age doesn't wash, and if for no other reason than I see and understand the maturing process from a psychological perspective, and the fact that 2 Samuel 12:21-23, regarding the death of David's first child with Bathsheba, that they will "go to him," meaning the child, "but he will not return to me." David, in other words, will see his child in heaven.

When I apply the biblical evidence of the sin nature, I have to accept that, while these children technically capable of sin now, only the very rare child exhibits what could be described as "sin" prior to maturing to a certain age. The vast majority simply do not understand the concept of "right" and "wrong" until it is taught to them by their parents. And that, obviously, makes for a wide range of understanding among children, even on the same block of the same neighborhood, as to what "right" and "wrong" really is.

I believe in the sin nature, but I also believe God renders justice according to personal accountability. The sin nature makes us incapable of perfection, which is what would be required for us not to sin. Adam and Eve rendered themselves imperfect by their sin, and two imperfect people were not going to produce perfect offspring. Thus we have an imperfect human race. The result is the wide range of beliefs held by adults, from total rejection not just of anything biblical, but anything even remotely described as "moral," to the extremely kind, pious, humble individuals who fear God and obey His commands. Yet even they are imperfect and sinful -- which is a surprise to some of them.

When we read the book of Hebrews, we see it explained that Jacob's son Levi -- and by implication, his entire clan -- was "still in the loins of his father" Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

We can relate this statement to Abraham's state, being "in the loins" of Noah before The Flood, and Noah was "in the loins" of Adam when he sinned. that being the case, certainly it has to be accepted that we were all in Adam when he sinned, and by that fact inherit the sin nature. When Adam and Eve sinned, a sin nature rendering them imperfect came over them. Since we were in them and our life came from them, we inherit this nature as well.

But as Paul wrote, that's just the bad half of the news. Here's the good half.

1 Corinthians 15, NASB
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive​

Death came through Adam. Jesus death, burial and resurrection proves He has power over death. So those who are in Christ, trusting in His shed blood for the forgiveness of our sins, are saved and death has no sting.