Why do you sin?

[Winman]

Your first question is answered in your second question. It wasn't that children were as guilty as the adults, though by their sin nature they certainly are imperfect. But as you said, it is more merciful to kill them before they become diabolically evil -- and in those days, as we can seem from the religious practices of the peoples surrounding Israel, diabolical evil was commonplace.

To me the concept of the guilt of children prior to a certain age doesn't wash, and if for no other reason than I see and understand the maturing process from a psychological perspective, and the fact that 2 Samuel 12:21-23, regarding the death of David's first child with Bathsheba, that they will "go to him," meaning the child, "but he will not return to me." David, in other words, will see his child in heaven.

When I apply the biblical evidence of the sin nature, I have to accept that, while these children technically capable of sin now, only the very rare child exhibits what could be described as "sin" prior to maturing to a certain age. The vast majority simply do not understand the concept of "right" and "wrong" until it is taught to them by their parents. And that, obviously, makes for a wide range of understanding among children, even on the same block of the same neighborhood, as to what "right" and "wrong" really is.

I believe in the sin nature, but I also believe God renders justice according to personal accountability. The sin nature makes us incapable of perfection, which is what would be required for us not to sin. Adam and Eve rendered themselves imperfect by their sin, and two imperfect people were not going to produce perfect offspring. Thus we have an imperfect human race. The result is the wide range of beliefs held by adults, from total rejection not just of anything biblical, but anything even remotely described as "moral," to the extremely kind, pious, humble individuals who fear God and obey His commands. Yet even they are imperfect and sinful -- which is a surprise to some of them.

When we read the book of Hebrews, we see it explained that Jacob's son Levi -- and by implication, his entire clan -- was "still in the loins of his father" Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

We can relate this statement to Abraham's state, being "in the loins" of Noah before The Flood, and Noah was "in the loins" of Adam when he sinned. that being the case, certainly it has to be accepted that we were all in Adam when he sinned, and by that fact inherit the sin nature. When Adam and Eve sinned, a sin nature rendering them imperfect came over them. Since we were in them and our life came from them, we inherit this nature as well.

But as Paul wrote, that's just the bad half of the news. Here's the good half.

1 Corinthians 15, NASB
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive​

Death came through Adam. Jesus death, burial and resurrection proves He has power over death. So those who are in Christ, trusting in His shed blood for the forgiveness of our sins, are saved and death has no sting.

I really like this post, it is very thoughtful, and tend to agree with it except for one point. And that is that you believe a sin nature is necessary to sin. The scriptures themselves refute this idea, Satan was created "perfect", yet he was able to sin, the fallen angels and Adam and Eve were "very good" and yet they were able to sin.

This is why I also argued in another thread that Jesus as a man had the ability to sin, but chose not to. Having a "perfect" nature does not prevent someone from sinning, Satan himself proves that.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Calvinists especially believe a person is enslaved by their nature, and so man as a "corrupt tree" can only bear corrupt fruit, but Jesus showed we can determine what kind of tree we are, and what kind of fruit we bear.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Here Jesus shows we have both the option and ability to "either make" ourselves good and our fruit good, "or else make" ourselves corrupt and our fruit corrupt.

Our choices determine our nature, our nature does not determine our choices.

If a person is enslaved by their nature, then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve to sin. IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[JamesL]

Could someone please define what is supposedly meant by "sin nature" ??? Is it:

** a substance that can be put into a sack or bucket?

** a psychological disorder?

** an intangible propensity, or bent ?

** a disease?

** a genetic flaw?


Where is this "sin nature" supposedly residing?

** body

** spirit

** soul

 

[Winman]

TND,

The problem with believing we were "in the loins" of Adam when he sinned, is that Hebrews 7 says Levi paid tithes being in the loins of Abraham.

Now, if this is literal, it means that not only are we guilty of Adam's first sin, but EVERY sin he ever committed. But not only that, we are guilty of every sin that every one of our grandfather's committed!

But that is not all! Levi got credit for Abraham's GOOD work and faith. So, we would also receive credit for all our father's good works, and if they were saved we would be saved also.

This is clearly refuted by scripture, John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees they must repent or turn from the idea they were saved simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham.

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

We do not physically inherit our father's sins, nor do we inherit our father's righteousness.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Augustine believed sin was physically inherited. He was wrong.

 

[Aaron]

Men sin because their hearts are corrupt. It's as simple as that.

Winman and TND are spouting paganism.

 

[annsni]

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice that he was perfect "in all his ways" - not that he was created perfect.

 

[Winman]

Notice that he was perfect "in all his ways" - not that he was created perfect.

So, you believe God created Satan evil?

I've got to be off for a few hours, be back later this evening, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Inspector Javert]

My question is this: If we do not have a sin nature, then that means that there are people out there who have not sinned.

Ma'am it does not mean that.
The proposition that men don't have a "sin nature" which COMPELS them to sin does not mean that there are any persons who have not sinned.

I'm afraid that's a non-sequitor Ann.

 

[Inspector Javert]

If children are innocent, why did God have the Israelites murder them as well in many of the cities that they were entering?

There are numerous probable reasons...they likely carried venereal diseases...
If their wicked parents were destroyed...then they are now thousands of orphans inasmuch as their parents were to be killed.

If, in fact it is true, that an infant is not guilty of sin, than God is assuring the salvation (so to speak) of thousands of infants who otherwise would likely have followed in their parents footsteps and become evil.

And I've asked this before: If children are innocent and once they mature to a certain point, they can deny Christ and lose their place in heaven, wouldn't it be more merciful to not allow them to get to that maturity level and kill them first?

Yes....
Perhaps that is PRECISELY why God told the Israelites to kill those infants.
However...if what you are suggesting is that we must now assume that say, abortion should be a good thing and that we, then should subsequently slay infants at will, than what you are now arguing is a fallacy from consequences....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

 

[HankD]

TND,

The problem with believing we were "in the loins" of Adam when he sinned, is that Hebrews 7 says Levi paid tithes being in the loins of Abraham.

Now, if this is literal, it means that not only are we guilty of Adam's first sin, but EVERY sin he ever committed. But not only that, we are guilty of every sin that every one of our grandfather's committed!

But that is not all! Levi got credit for Abraham's GOOD work and faith. So, we would also receive credit for all our father's good works, and if they were saved we would be saved also.

This is clearly refuted by scripture, John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees they must repent or turn from the idea they were saved simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham.

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

We do not physically inherit our father's sins, nor do we inherit our father's righteousness.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Augustine believed sin was physically inherited. He was wrong.

You quote this passage often but it can be plainly seen that this is referring to the Law of Moses by reading the first 19 verses. A child does not know "iniquity" until he himself puts his stamp of approval on sin and willingly and knowingly commits sins as enumerated in these 19 verses.

If he does these things, then he incurs sin guilt. That is the purpose of the Law (of Moses when Ezekiel was written) to make us all guilty before God because of our heritage from Adam.

But there is some truth that we are all guilty of sin as a universal concept simply because we are the seed of the first human sinner who passed sin and death down to each one of us.

"all sinned" - Aorist tense.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

In both of these passages above the word for sin is singular. All sin, big sin, little sin, any sin, what sin doesn't matter because rebellion against God is our ground of being.

It takes a few years, maybe even many before children come to an understanding of what they are and why they behave the way they do.

Then they die (they incur the guilt of sin).

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It doesn't say "sin came to life" but "sin revived" - aorist tense - the ability to sin was there all along waiting to be awakened.

I will admit that Adam had a different ground of being in the beginning - he and Eve were indeed sinners by choice and were changed with the effect of having their choice become the consequence of the entire human race. The destiny of our parents is now the destiny of us all.

That is my take of Romans 5:12.

I think brother winman we can agree concerning one thing concerning our only hope:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"

HankD

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Could someone please define what is supposedly meant by "sin nature" ??? Is it:

** a substance that can be put into a sack or bucket?

** a psychological disorder?

** an intangible propensity, or bent ?

** a disease?

** a genetic flaw?


Where is this "sin nature" supposedly residing?

** body

** spirit

** soul

See Jordan's post #25

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The KJV and NKJV version simply translate sarx as “flesh”. It’s your body, the natural part of you that experiences this reality through the five senses–taste, touch, smell, hear and see. The flesh is very different than the sinful nature..

So does the NASB, and this indicates the "sin nature" resides in the mind, which is flesh. It is the human spirit being led by the sinful desires of the flesh to act on those desires.

 

[JamesL]

I found this neat article on the sin nature:

As we continue to grow in our understanding of grace, it is essential that we really understand this concept of “sin nature”. What is it and how does it apply today? I believe most churches teach a wrong concept of “sin nature”, and in doing so, many people are trapped in a fear-based, anxiety-provoking understanding of sin.
What is a “Sinful Nature”?
The Bible says we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin. We don’t learn to sin; rather, it comes natural to us since birth. When we come into this world, our spirits are dead and we must be born again (John 3:3-7).
Today, under the New Covenant, there are only two states of existence: the natural and the spiritual. This is how Paul describes those two states by comparing Adam and Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:47-49,
The first man was of the earth, made of dust;
The second Man is the Lord from heaven.
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust;
And as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
To move from the natural (state of Adam) to the spiritual (state of Christ), you must be born again. Once you are born again, your flesh has been crucified. According to Galatians 2:20, it is no longer you who live, but Christ in you.
The Sin Nature is Dead in Christ
Once you have put your faith in Christ and are born again, your sin nature is dead. You have died to your sinful nature and are now alive “in Christ”. You are now a new creation:
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).
Your old self, your old nature has “passed away.” All things “have become new.” It’s a finished work!
You no longer have a sinful nature. You have the nature of Christ inside of you.
Sinful Nature versus Flesh
Today’s modern teaching of the “sinful nature” is based on some recent translations of the Bible. Modern translations like the New International Version (NIV) and New Living Translation (NLT) use the term “sinful nature” throughout the New Testament. However, it’s more of an interpretation than a translation. In both the King James Version (KJV) and New King James Version (NKJV) of the Bible, there is no use of “sinful nature”. It’s only in newer translations.
So, what is this word being used for “sinful nature”?
The Greek word that NIV and NLT translate “sinful nature” is the word sarx. It is defined as “the flesh, the meat of an animal, the body (as opposed to the soul or spirit)”.
The KJV and NKJV version simply translate sarx as “flesh”. It’s your body, the natural part of you that experiences this reality through the five senses–taste, touch, smell, hear and see. The flesh is very different than the sinful nature.
Take Romans 7:18 for example and read both the NIV and the NKJV:
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out” (Romans 7:18, NIV).
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find” (Romans 7:18, NKJV).
Why is this important? Your flesh is this tangible part of you where sin resides. Sin lives in your flesh. But, if you believe that sin in your soul and spirit, that your nature is to sin, then your identity is all about sin management. But, if you can believe that your nature is good, that you are a child of God, then there is hope to live a victorious life. You can conquer the flesh, because Christ did.
But, I still sin.
So do I. As long as you are alive, your flesh will be prone to sin. But, God has somehow uniquely separated your soul and spirit from your body when you become a believer. Your body is dead to sin. Romans 8:10 says, “If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” In Christ, God considers your body dead because of sin. So, we are encouraged to do the same: “Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:11).
We no longer have a sinful nature. It has been crucified and buried with Christ. Our new nature is the nature of Christ. He lives inside of us. If we can truly understand and believe that Christ lives in us and that we have a new nature in him, then it will empower us to walk in freedom. With the nature of Christ in us, we can overcome fear, anxiety and panic attacks.
Prayer: Father, show me that I am a new creation in Christ, that my old sinful nature has been crucified, dead and buried. I am alive in you.

Yes, I've seen junk like this from to many supposed scholars. Here are the excerpts that are very conflicted and confused:

1)
The Bible says we are born with a nature to sin–an inward motivation to sin.

2)
The first man was of the earth, made of dust;
The second Man is the Lord from heaven.
As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust;
And as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust,
We shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
To move from the natural (state of Adam) to the spiritual (state of Christ), you must be born again.

3)
The Greek word that NIV and NLT translate “sinful nature” is the word sarx. It is defined as “the flesh, the meat of an animal, the body (as opposed to the soul or spirit)”.

4)
As long as you are alive, your flesh will be prone to sin.

5)
We no longer have a sinful nature.



First, speaking of an INWARD propensity toward sin

then shifting to a scripture which is plainly in the context of bodily death and resurrection

then defining "sinful nature" as flesh, the meat of an animal, the body (as opposed to the soul or spirit) - what the bible would call the OUTER MAN

then saying we have sin in what would probably be defined as sinful nature (flesh) and that we'll struggle with it

then claiming we no longer have a sinful nature


These pieces don't jibe at all. If "sin nature" is an inward propensity, then why the shift to the physical body?

If "sin nature" is the body of meat, then where does the notion come from that we no longer have a sin nature? we no longer have a body?


Somebody needs to clean up that mess quick

 

[prophet]

When this is sorted out, homosexuality, as a result of reprobation, makes sense.

Our Flesh is our physical body.
Our flesh has needs.
Our flesh is dying.
Our flesh is driven by cravings for fulfillment of these desires.

We crave food, until we feel full.
We crave sex, once our chemistry set begins to change.
We crave emotional satisfaction...touch, respect, adoration, acceptance , noteriety, and etc.

We see, and our flesh says "I need that, too". Our flesh is not wise, only needy.

Sin is the transgression of God's Law.
You haven't sinned, until you cross the line.

Deviancy, is sin that is not a result of our natural desires.
It is deviation of nature, or leaving the path we would naturally follow, that is the subject of Romans 1&2.

Satan lures our flesh, knowing it's weakness, that it has needs, and tempts it to sin. He sets a carrot across the line, like he did to Eve.
Adam sinned, because Eve was now the carrot, luring him across the line.

We have a nature, a needy dying body, that has to have many physical, mental and emotional needs met. This needy state of ours, is natural, is lust.

Lust , our natural craving for the necessary satisfaction of our needs, conceives craving for things that are not within our reach.

Lust is not sin.
Lust brings forth sin.
Lust...our natural desire, doesn't care whose apple that is, it desires food.
Put a fence up, and that apple is now a sin to eat.
Lust looks at the apple, and says: "I need that apple".
Sin is brought forth, when lust convinces the mind to join the body, and overwhelm the human with desire for the apple, blinding him to the fence, momentarily.

Apples arent sinful.
Desiring apples is not a sinful desire.
Looking at apples across a fence is not a sin.
But lust desires action, and the action is sin.
The sinner always has a choice, to not sin, he just doesn't always choose it, because he has the desire to fulfill, and it takes a concious decision to overturn it.

Unsaved people can be trained to say "no" to any temptation.
They just can't be trained to never desire something that that haven't been trained to say "no" to.

Bhuddism teaches self denial, for instance, yet the Bhuddist will kill another Bhuddist in a fist fight in the street.

 

[DHK]

I really like this post, it is very thoughtful, and tend to agree with it except for one point. And that is that you believe a sin nature is necessary to sin. The scriptures themselves refute this idea, Satan was created "perfect", yet he was able to sin, the fallen angels and Adam and Eve were "very good" and yet they were able to sin.

You use these verses often. They are red herrings; non applicable. Adam, Eve, and Lucifer were all created beings, created ex nihilo, by God Almighty. You were not. You were born into this world, not created. In fact you were born under the curse, with a sin nature, depraved.

This is why I also argued in another thread that Jesus as a man had the ability to sin, but chose not to. Having a "perfect" nature does not prevent someone from sinning, Satan himself proves that.

You also say that Christ had sinful flesh. I had pointed out many other things regarding Christ that you believe. Essentially you place the nature of an infant as more pure and innocent than that of Christ which is heresy.

Eze 28:15

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Speaking of a created being, Lucifer, this is a non sequitor.

Calvinists especially believe a person is enslaved by their nature, and so man as a "corrupt tree" can only bear corrupt fruit, but Jesus showed we can determine what kind of tree we are, and what kind of fruit we bear.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Here Jesus shows we have both the option and ability to "either make" ourselves good and our fruit good, "or else make" ourselves corrupt and our fruit corrupt.

You have corrupted the meaning of these verses. Just as a leopard cannot change his spots and an Ethiopian cannot change his skin, so a tree cannot change his "fruit." Are you really serious here? Do you think a pear tree can become an apple tree?
The good tree cannot make the tree corrupt, for it is already corrupt. It will always be corrupt. The pear tree cannot become an apple tree it always be a pear tree. You cannot change its nature. This is the teaching of Jesus here. One cannot change the nature. The tree is known for its fruit!
That is what he said.
And man's fruit is only evil continually.

Our choices determine our nature, our nature does not determine our choices.

No, Because our nature is evil we do evil things. Why do you have to teach an infant to tell the truth, but not to lie?

If a person is enslaved by their nature, then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve to sin. IMPOSSIBLE.

Another non sequitor.
No one is talking about angels and other created beings. Stay on topic.

 

[Winman]

You use these verses often. They are red herrings; non applicable. Adam, Eve, and Lucifer were all created beings, created ex nihilo, by God Almighty. You were not. You were born into this world, not created. In fact you were born under the curse, with a sin nature, depraved.

Baloney. Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve PROVE that you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. You can deny it all you want.

And you have absolutely ZERO scripture that says we are born with a sin nature. You NEVER post this scripture, because it doesn't exist.

But... to the contrary there is scripture that directly says man is made upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You can deny this scripture all you want, but it clearly says God has made all men upright. The word "they" is plural showing this is speaking of all men, not Adam only, and the word "many" shows men become sinful by personal transgressions, not the single sin of Adam.

You have ZERO scripture, I have multiple scriptures to support my view.

You also say that Christ had sinful flesh. I had pointed out many other things regarding Christ that you believe. Essentially you place the nature of an infant as more pure and innocent than that of Christ which is heresy.

That is an outright lie, I have ALWAYS said Jesus was HOLY. I don't believe men are born with a sin nature, why would I believe Jesus was born with a sin nature?? So, this is nothing but a shameless attempt to smear me and misrepresent me. You should be ashamed, but people like you are never ashamed.

Speaking of a created being, Lucifer, this is a non sequitor.
You have corrupted the meaning of these verses. Just as a leopard cannot change his spots and an Ethiopian cannot change his skin, so a tree cannot change his "fruit." Are you really serious here? Do you think a pear tree can become an apple tree?

Satan was created "perfect" in all his ways. Are you saying God created a sinful being?

Satan did not have a sin nature when he was created, yet he was able to sin. This utterly refutes this superstitious view that a person must have a sin nature to sin. All you need to sin is free will and a lack of faith in God.

The good tree cannot make the tree corrupt, for it is already corrupt. It will always be corrupt. The pear tree cannot become an apple tree it always be a pear tree. You cannot change its nature. This is the teaching of Jesus here. One cannot change the nature. The tree is known for its fruit!
That is what he said.
And man's fruit is only evil continually.

Baloney, Jesus showed we can determine what kind of tree we are and what fruit we produce.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Jesus showed we have both option and ability here, he said "either make" the tree good and it's fruit good, "or else make" the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt. You have the option and ability to determine what kind of tree you are.

See, I present scripture that supports my view. You simply parrot things you have been told all your life without one word of scripture to support it. Any honest person can see who is just talking, and who is presenting real evidence for their view. :thumbsup:

No, Because our nature is evil we do evil things. Why do you have to teach an infant to tell the truth, but not to lie?
Another non sequitor.
No one is talking about angels and other created beings. Stay on topic.

No, because we have made ourselves a corrupt tree our fruit is evil. We have the ability to turn from sin and become a good tree that produces good fruit.

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Again, I do not just TALK like you do, I show scripture that supports my view.

 

[DHK]

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Again, I do not just TALK like you do, I show scripture that supports my view.

You do quote Scripture, but without understanding. The verse you quoted from Ecclesiastes, for example, was completely out of context.

Here in Ezek.18:31, Ezekiel tells them to get a new heart. Suppose the doctor told you to do the same thing. What would you do? Go to the "heart bank" buy a "heart" and somehow exchange yours for another. Or, yank Aaron's heart out of his body and somehow get it into your's. How are you going to accomplish this without any outside help.
Winman:
Get yourself a new heart! Go get one. Exchange yours for another without the help of another. Is it realistic?

Neither is it realistic spiritually!
Here is what Keil and Deilitzch say on this subject:

Make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit:” a man cannot, indeed, create either of these by his own power; God alone can give them (Eze_11:19). But a man both can and should come to God to receive them: in other words, he can turn to God, and let both heart and spirit be renewed by the Spirit of God. And this God is willing to do; for He has no pleasure בְּמֹות הַמֵת, in the death of the dying one. In the repetition of the assurance given in Eze_18:23, הַמֵּת is very appropriately substituted for רָשָׁע, to indicate to the people that while in sin they are lying in death, and that it is only by conversion and renewal that they can recover life again.

God alone can give them a new heart. They cannot do it of themselves.
He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but if they don't come to him in repentance and acquire a new heart from him, they will surely die!

 

[JamesL]

You use these verses often. They are red herrings; non applicable. Adam, Eve, and Lucifer were all created beings, created ex nihilo, by God Almighty. You were not.

Not according to scripture. Genesis 3:19 says that Adam was taken out of the ground. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

You were born into this world, not created.

Our body comes from Adam. 1Cor 15 says we are all IN Adam, speaking of our physical body coming from him. Eve was taken from Adam too.

In fact you were born under the curse, with a sin nature, depraved.

Scripture says nothing about the curse being a mystical "sin nature" inside of man.

Genesis 3:17 says "Cursed is the GROUND because of you"


The spirit comes from GOD, not the parents. God forms the spirit of man within him (Zechariah 12:1)

You also say that Christ had sinful flesh.

Was He not a physical descendant of Adam?

If so, He had sinful flesh, which makes NNE a sinner. Sin-wrecked, or diseased, would be better ways of wording it

No, Because our nature is evil we do evil things. Why do you have to teach an infant to tell the truth, but not to lie?

What do you mean by "nature" ??


Scripture absolutely teaches that man has two natures - spirit and body

There is a clear distinction between the body and the spirit, and each one relates to sin and righteousness in its own manner.

The body comes from the dust, through procreation, and is cursed to die because of Adam. But this body of death will put on immortality when it is cleansed of sin at the resurrection.

The spirit is breathed into a human sometime near conception, and is 100% sinless - until we go our own way and become filthy.

Then, when we have faith in Christ, wrought by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is cleansed and we pass from death to life.

Our spirit is then SEALED until the day of redemption, when our body will be cleansed and the whole mane is presented complete at the coming of the Lord Jesus (1Thess 5:23), which is when the resurrection happens


Many like to quote Psalm 51 - in sin my mother conceived me - as proof of a mystical sin nature. But the conveniently disregard Psalm 139 - I was fearfully and wonderfully made


What's striking about these two psalms, other than they appear to conflict?

David's PHYSICAL BODY was conceived and brought forth sinful (Ps 51:5)
David's SPIRIT was fearfully and wonderfully made by God, who formed the INWARD PARTS (Ps 139:13-16). David said his soul known it well



The soul, or psyche, is our mind (thinking) - our will, rationale, emotions, personality, etc. This is not the same thing a the brain, which is part of our physical body. The psyche isn't the spirit either.

spirit and body are substance, like a balloon and the air inside it. The "personality" of the balloon depends on inner qualities and outer qualities. How much air? and is it actually helium? Those inner qualities will all affect whether the balloon floats or not.

Then there are outer qualities which affect the balloon's performance - air temperature, wind gusts, etc.

the performance of a balloon is not substance, just like thoughts of a man aren't substance


We have two pieces of substance - body and spirit
Then, we have one ASPECT of our psyche (thoughts), which is affected by the quality of the inner and the outer

Our spirit and our psyche are joined forever - this is why scripture speaks of our spirit and soul as being distinct, but also uses them interchangeably.

Our brain and our psyche are joined while we are in this body. But take off this body and the brain affects it no more


Those who are born again have become a new creation, which is the spirit inside. We have been washed, purified, and are currently without spot or wrinkle - regenerated (Titus 3:5)

But this body of death is still wrecked with sin until it is sown in the ground then raised incorruptible - in the regeneration (Matt 19:28)


THAT is what Paul meant when he said "it is no longer I doing it, but it is sin in me, that is, in my flesh (body)...who shall save me from this body of death

Both our sinless spirit and our sinful flesh are tugging at our mind, to obey one or the other

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

James, obviously you were missed by the severe weather. :thumbsup:

Started a thread in News/Current Events but guess it isn't necessary.

 

[Winman]

Not according to scripture. Genesis 3:19 says that Adam was taken out of the ground. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Our body comes from Adam. 1Cor 15 says we are all IN Adam, speaking of our physical body coming from him. Eve was taken from Adam too.

Scripture says nothing about the curse being a mystical "sin nature" inside of man.

Genesis 3:17 says "Cursed is the GROUND because of you"

The spirit comes from GOD, not the parents. God forms the spirit of man within him (Zechariah 12:1)

Was He not a physical descendant of Adam?

If so, He had sinful flesh, which makes NNE a sinner. Sin-wrecked, or diseased, would be better ways of wording it

What do you mean by "nature" ??

Scripture absolutely teaches that man has two natures - spirit and body

There is a clear distinction between the body and the spirit, and each one relates to sin and righteousness in its own manner.

The body comes from the dust, through procreation, and is cursed to die because of Adam. But this body of death will put on immortality when it is cleansed of sin at the resurrection.

The spirit is breathed into a human sometime near conception, and is 100% sinless - until we go our own way and become filthy.

Then, when we have faith in Christ, wrought by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is cleansed and we pass from death to life.

Our spirit is then SEALED until the day of redemption, when our body will be cleansed and the whole mane is presented complete at the coming of the Lord Jesus (1Thess 5:23), which is when the resurrection happens


Many like to quote Psalm 51 - in sin my mother conceived me - as proof of a mystical sin nature. But the conveniently disregard Psalm 139 - I was fearfully and wonderfully made

What's striking about these two psalms, other than they appear to conflict?

David's PHYSICAL BODY was conceived and brought forth sinful (Ps 51:5)
David's SPIRIT was fearfully and wonderfully made by God, who formed the INWARD PARTS (Ps 139:13-16). David said his soul known it well

The soul, or psyche, is our mind (thinking) - our will, rationale, emotions, personality, etc. This is not the same thing a the brain, which is part of our physical body. The psyche isn't the spirit either.

spirit and body are substance, like a balloon and the air inside it. The "personality" of the balloon depends on inner qualities and outer qualities. How much air? and is it actually helium? Those inner qualities will all affect whether the balloon floats or not.

Then there are outer qualities which affect the balloon's performance - air temperature, wind gusts, etc.

the performance of a balloon is not substance, just like thoughts of a man aren't substance

We have two pieces of substance - body and spirit
Then, we have one ASPECT of our psyche (thoughts), which is affected by the quality of the inner and the outer

Our spirit and our psyche are joined forever - this is why scripture speaks of our spirit and soul as being distinct, but also uses them interchangeably.

Our brain and our psyche are joined while we are in this body. But take off this body and the brain affects it no more

Those who are born again have become a new creation, which is the spirit inside. We have been washed, purified, and are currently without spot or wrinkle - regenerated (Titus 3:5)

But this body of death is still wrecked with sin until it is sown in the ground then raised incorruptible - in the regeneration (Matt 19:28)

THAT is what Paul meant when he said "it is no longer I doing it, but it is sin in me, that is, in my flesh (body)...who shall save me from this body of death

Both our sinless spirit and our sinful flesh are tugging at our mind, to obey one or the other

This is a very good post, and I think I would agree with it completely. Yes, we are born with a "corruptible" body that dies, but our spirit is given to us by God and is not originally sinful.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Our spirit comes from God, and God does not give us a sinful spirit.

The spirit can will to obey God, it is the flesh that wars against the Spirit.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This was spoken before the Holy Spirit was given, so is speaking of the disciples "natural" spirit of a man they were born with. Jesus himself says the disciples were willing in their spirit to obey him, but their flesh was weak and caused them to fall asleep. This is exactly the kind of struggle Paul is describing in Romans 7:14-25.

Very good post.

 

[DHK]

Not according to scripture. Genesis 3:19 says that Adam was taken out of the ground. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Adam was created. Genesis 1 specifically says that. Eccl.12:7 you have taken out of context. This is a book that the cults love to use because it is easy to take the scripture out of context. Look at the verse carefully. Do you really believe that the spirits of Hitler, Osama ben Laden, Saddam Hussein have returned to be with God? Are you a universalist? Do you deny Hell? Obviously the verse doesn't mean what you imply.

Our body comes from Adam. 1Cor 15 says we are all IN Adam, speaking of our physical body coming from him. Eve was taken from Adam too.

Yes, that means we all have a sinful nature. God "formed" Eve in a special act of creation using Adam. Do you deny the creation of Eve?

Scripture says nothing about the curse being a mystical "sin nature" inside of man.

Genesis 3:17 says "Cursed is the GROUND because of you"

The curse came upon all the earth, man, woman, animals, etc. There was nothing that was not affected. The second law of Thermodynamics was set into motion. The entire world (including man) is under a law of increasing entropy, or degeneration and decay. Things don't get better and better; they only get worse and worse.

The spirit comes from GOD, not the parents. God forms the spirit of man within him (Zechariah 12:1)

The spirit comes from God. That is how man is able to communicate with God. The soul comes from the parents. It is the seat of the emotions, that which can reason, the heart, the mind.

Was He not a physical descendant of Adam?

If so, He had sinful flesh, which makes NNE a sinner. Sin-wrecked, or diseased, would be better ways of wording it

Christ was the Second Adam. He came from heaven; from the Father above. He was born of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit. No, technically he cannot be traced to Adam. He is not a created being. He is God. God used Mary to allow the Son of God to come into this world as God incarnate. What do you mean he came from Adam? To say that he had sinful flesh is to disqualify him from being the sinless sacrifice that he had to be in order to make an atonement for our sins.
If he had sinful flesh then he was sinful. Why are you implying Christ was sinful?

What do you mean by "nature" ??

Scripture absolutely teaches that man has two natures - spirit and body

No. We have our old sinful nature (depraved), and always will have that nature. We always will have it. When saved we will also have a new nature, a spiritual nature given by Christ. In Romans 7 Paul describes the war or the struggle that he has between the new and the old nature. It is there even as a Christian.

There is a clear distinction between the body and the spirit, and each one relates to sin and righteousness in its own manner.

The body comes from the dust, through procreation, and is cursed to die because of Adam. But this body of death will put on immortality when it is cleansed of sin at the resurrection.

The body is a vessel. It is a tent, Paul says. We are spirit beings like the angels, but for a temporary period are enclosed in a tent which is neither good or bad. It is us that use it for good or bad.

2Co 5:1-3
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
--Our body is only a tent. There is nothing evil about it.

The spirit is breathed into a human sometime near conception, and is 100% sinless - until we go our own way and become filthy.

Then, when we have faith in Christ, wrought by the Holy Spirit, our spirit is cleansed and we pass from death to life.

It is the soul that is contaminated with sin. It is dead (Eph.2:1), separated from God.

Our spirit is then SEALED until the day of redemption, when our body will be cleansed and the whole mane is presented complete at the coming of the Lord Jesus (1Thess 5:23), which is when the resurrection happens

It is not "sealed" until one is born again.
You must be born again. When born, you are not born into God's family, but into another family.

Many like to quote Psalm 51 - in sin my mother conceived me - as proof of a mystical sin nature. But the conveniently disregard Psalm 139 - I was fearfully and wonderfully made

First, Psalm 51 is a psalm of repentance where David with great sorrow and repentance looks down deep into the depths of the innermost parts of his soul and sees that even from the very beginning, the day he was born he was a sinner. He sees his sinfulness before God. It was a Psalm of repentance. Context is king.
Second, in Psalm 139, the psalmist is looking at the body in amazement and wonder. This indeed is the creation of God. Recently they said that the human mind is more complex and powerful than any of the PC's available to us today. We indeed are fearfully and wonderfully made.

What's striking about these two psalms, other than they appear to conflict?

No, their contexts are completely different.

David's PHYSICAL BODY was conceived and brought forth sinful (Ps 51:5)
David's SPIRIT was fearfully and wonderfully made by God, who formed the INWARD PARTS (Ps 139:13-16). David said his soul known it well

David's repentant heart knew and confessed of his own sinfulness.
David meditated on the amazing body that God had created for him.