I am a false convert, love my sin, and headed to hell!!

[evangelist6589]

Believe it but some die hard Washer types on Facebook have said as such to me. I have challenged them back and have said I like Washer, just do not agree with some of his messages and the absence of grace and the cross in them. They respond and say I love my sin, and am one perishing. I replied and said I am reading a book on Sin by Moderate Calvinist Jerry Bridges, and have heard some sermons by moderate Calvinist Erwin Lutzer, and they ignore the remarks and insist because I did not agree with Washer's approach I surely must be either lost or very confused. I reply and should have said I follow Jesus and not a man, and that Washer is not God! Yes Washer is a slave of God, but he is not God! But I realized no matter what I said I could not win, so I stopped chatting with the die hard Washer fans.

I tell you if this is the type of Calvinist WinMan crusades against then I am with WinMan. WinMan thinks highly of moderate Calvinist such as Jerry Bridges and Erwin Lutzer, so its obvious he has an issue with the die hard Calvinist that love Calvinism more than Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

Believe it but some die hard Washer types on Facebook have said as such to me. I have challenged them back and have said I like Washer, just do not agree with some of his messages and the absence of grace and the cross in them. They respond and say I love my sin, and am one perishing. I replied and said I am reading a book on Sin by Moderate Calvinist Jerry Bridges, and have heard some sermons by moderate Calvinist Erwin Lutzer, and they ignore the remarks and insist because I did not agree with Washer's approach I surely must be either lost or very confused. I reply and should have said I follow Jesus and not a man, and that Washer is not God! Yes Washer is a slave of God, but he is not God! But I realized no matter what I said I could not win, so I stopped chatting with the die hard Washer fans.

I tell you if this is the type of Calvinist WinMan crusades against then I am with WinMan. WinMan thinks highly of moderate Calvinist such as Jerry Bridges and Erwin Lutzer, so its obvious he has an issue with the die hard Calvinist that love Calvinism more than Jesus.

Brother,

Christ didn't die to make sin a possibility, but an reality. It's real to those who He chooses, and others gladly go to hell.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

In your heart you know what you know what you know. Why concern yourself with others' opinions?

 

[evangelist6589]

In your heart you know what you know what you know. Why concern yourself with others' opinions?

Good advice. I am actually not very worried about what they say, but it was troubling to hear them, and how zealous these hard line or extreme Calvinists are.

 

[Winman]

Believe it but some die hard Washer types on Facebook have said as such to me. I have challenged them back and have said I like Washer, just do not agree with some of his messages and the absence of grace and the cross in them. They respond and say I love my sin, and am one perishing. I replied and said I am reading a book on Sin by Moderate Calvinist Jerry Bridges, and have heard some sermons by moderate Calvinist Erwin Lutzer, and they ignore the remarks and insist because I did not agree with Washer's approach I surely must be either lost or very confused. I reply and should have said I follow Jesus and not a man, and that Washer is not God! Yes Washer is a slave of God, but he is not God! But I realized no matter what I said I could not win, so I stopped chatting with the die hard Washer fans.

I tell you if this is the type of Calvinist WinMan crusades against then I am with WinMan. WinMan thinks highly of moderate Calvinist such as Jerry Bridges and Erwin Lutzer, so its obvious he has an issue with the die hard Calvinist that love Calvinism more than Jesus.

Man you are having a rough week! A fellow at your church doesn't like you because you are a Calvinist, these folks at Facebook don't like you because you aren't Calvinist enough.

Welcome to MY world. :tongue3:

As much as I often disagee with you Evan, I really like you a lot. I sincerely think it is awesome you go out on the street and preach, even if I don't completely agree with what you preach. That takes nerve. :thumbs:

As TND said, you can't worry about what others think. I have come to discover that no matter what you believe, there is somebody out there who isn't going to like it.

You just need to study the Bible and ask God to reveal truth to you. And as the old saying goes, To thine own self be true. That is a lot tougher than most folks think.

These Lordship Salvationists are always the same. In their eyes you are this horrible sinner on your way to hell, they are perfectly righteous. They can never tell you how good you have to be to go to heaven, or how bad you have to be to go to hell, they just KNOW you are going to hell, and they are going to heaven. They aren't going to listen to you, they never do.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Believe it but some die hard Washer types on Facebook have said as such to me. I have challenged them back and have said I like Washer, just do not agree with some of his messages and the absence of grace and the cross in them. They respond and say I love my sin, and am one perishing. I replied and said I am reading a book on Sin by Moderate Calvinist Jerry Bridges, and have heard some sermons by moderate Calvinist Erwin Lutzer, and they ignore the remarks and insist because I did not agree with Washer's approach I surely must be either lost or very confused. I reply and should have said I follow Jesus and not a man, and that Washer is not God! Yes Washer is a slave of God, but he is not God! But I realized no matter what I said I could not win, so I stopped chatting with the die hard Washer fans.

I tell you if this is the type of Calvinist WinMan crusades against then I am with WinMan. WinMan thinks highly of moderate Calvinist such as Jerry Bridges and Erwin Lutzer, so its obvious he has an issue with the die hard Calvinist that love Calvinism more than Jesus.

Now you have me confused. What do you consider a "Die Hard Calvinist?"

 

[Van]

In the 1930's the facists set fire and blamed the communists. This resulted in the dupes, fearing the leftists, voting emergency powers for the facists. The "beware of somebody else" method of gaining power and control has been around for a long time. The "false flag operation" where an enemy is set up as the perpetrator has been used time and again.

 

[evangelist6589]

Man you are having a rough week! A fellow at your church doesn't like you because you are a Calvinist, these folks at Facebook don't like you because you aren't Calvinist enough.

Welcome to MY world. :tongue3:

As much as I often disagee with you Evan, I really like you a lot. I sincerely think it is awesome you go out on the street and preach, even if I don't completely agree with what you preach. That takes nerve. :thumbs:

As TND said, you can't worry about what others think. I have come to discover that no matter what you believe, there is somebody out there who isn't going to like it.

You just need to study the Bible and ask God to reveal truth to you. And as the old saying goes, To thine own self be true. That is a lot tougher than most folks think.

These Lordship Salvationists are always the same. In their eyes you are this horrible sinner on your way to hell, they are perfectly righteous. They can never tell you how good you have to be to go to heaven, or how bad you have to be to go to hell, they just KNOW you are going to hell, and they are going to heaven. They aren't going to listen to you, they never do.

Point said. I was at the Gymn and listening to a sermon by both Erwin Lutzer (moderate Calvinist) and Charles Stanley (Arminian) and none preached Lordship, and both emphasized the cross of Christ, God's love, etc.. None of the preaches avoided HELL, sin, God's judgment on man, etc...

The problem with Lordship salvation is that it is so complex and so few understand it which seems to be go against 2 Pet 3:9. If so few can fully understand Lordship Salvation books as most these days lack the intellectual capabilities to comprehend. That said I agree with some of Lordship Salvation and against easy-believism, however I have to wonder if Washer really fully listens to sermons and reads books of those that he attacks. One needs to preach hard on sin, but they must seriously also preach on the Cross and God's love for sinners.

But to question ones salvation because they may be struggling with a sin, don't respond to a sermon the way Washer wants, and miss church, does not make them not saved. God may be doing a work on these people as He knows His elect whom he has called to salvation, and not all elect are at the same place in their walk.

 

[evangelist6589]

In the 1930's the facists set fire and blamed the communists. This resulted in the dupes, fearing the leftists, voting emergency powers for the facists. The "beware of somebody else" method of gaining power and control has been around for a long time. The "false flag operation" where an enemy is set up as the perpetrator has been used time and again.

Explain how this relates to Washer.

 

[evangelist6589]

Now you have me confused. What do you consider a "Die Hard Calvinist?"

Often those Calvinists that preach Calvinism more than they preach Jesus. They often will ignore God's love on sinners, the cross, but instead only preach on judgment.

 

[The Archangel]

Believe it but some die hard Washer types on Facebook have said as such to me. I have challenged them back and have said I like Washer, just do not agree with some of his messages and the absence of grace and the cross in them. They respond and say I love my sin, and am one perishing. I replied and said I am reading a book on Sin by Moderate Calvinist Jerry Bridges, and have heard some sermons by moderate Calvinist Erwin Lutzer, and they ignore the remarks and insist because I did not agree with Washer's approach I surely must be either lost or very confused. I reply and should have said I follow Jesus and not a man, and that Washer is not God! Yes Washer is a slave of God, but he is not God! But I realized no matter what I said I could not win, so I stopped chatting with the die hard Washer fans.

I tell you if this is the type of Calvinist WinMan crusades against then I am with WinMan. WinMan thinks highly of moderate Calvinist such as Jerry Bridges and Erwin Lutzer, so its obvious he has an issue with the die hard Calvinist that love Calvinism more than Jesus.

Part of the challenge with this whole thread is that there is truth in what the "Washer-ites" are saying: It is possible to love one's sin more than Christ and that is--no doubt--a disqualifier at some point.

HOWEVER, the Washerite approach doesn't seem to leave room for progressive sanctification. It would seem (if your report here is accurate) they insist on a type of sanctification which is both instant and total--neither of which the Bible supports.

As Mark Dever points out in his excellent book What Is A Healthy Church?, Christians can and do sin. So, what's the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-Christian who sins?

The Christian will always take God's side against sin. He or she will call sin "sin." The believer will always agree with God that something He calls sin is, indeed, a sin and will always seek to be rid of that sin, understanding there may be slip-ups and back-slides, etc. But, with the help of the local congregation, he or she can be rid of the beloved sin. But, like the alcoholic, he or she will always have that particular sin as a week point.

The non-Christian, on the other hand, will always take sin's side against God--always seeking to justify himself or herself while denying whatever sin or sins they "love" are sins in the first place.

One only need look at the so-called idea of a "Gay Christian" (which means, in this context, one who is actively in or pursuing a same-sex lifestyle and/or relationship while also pretending to be a fully-devoted "Christian"). But, we shouldn't restrict it to homosexuality alone. Many heterosexuals pursue sexual expression out of the only biblical route of expression, too. Even in the realm of money, pride, prestige, etc. there are those who are actively loving their sin above all else while pretending to follow Christ. Of course, many excuses are made: I'm doing it for my family, I was made this way and who am I to change, it isn't really a sin....

All of these are evidence that someone is loving his or her sin more than Christ. As a pastor, my concern is not those who struggle against sin (even if there are setbacks). I think it's likely we are struggling together as we are progressively sanctified by Christ. Instead, my concern is those who won't even engage in the struggle.

Christ is quite clear: If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. For it is better to be maimed in this life than to be disqualified from the Kingdom of Heaven (my paraphrase).

According to Christ, sin is serious business and sin deserves no terms, no quarter, no fair treatment. It must be killed. As someone else has said: Be killing sin or sin will be killing you.

In the end, it is a matter of the heart and it deserves some soul-searching. Do we love sin more than Christ??? Is there something we are refusing to sacrifice for His glory? Are you taking sin's side against God, making excuses why God should let you do something He defines as sin? Then, the accusations of the Washerites might just be accurate....

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Explain how this relates to Washer.

Gee, I thought your idea was to condemn those dreaded and pesky Washerites. Perhaps Washer posted the OP.

 

[evangelist6589]

Part of the challenge with this whole thread is that there is truth in what the "Washer-ites" are saying: It is possible to love one's sin more than Christ and that is--no doubt--a disqualifier at some point.

Thank you so much for your reply Archangel. Yes Washer does have much good to say, but needs to be read with discernment as anyone.

HOWEVER, the Washerite approach doesn't seem to leave room for progressive sanctification. It would seem (if your report here is accurate) they insist on a type of sanctification which is both instant and total--neither of which the Bible supports.

In his books he kind of emphasizes this, but in his sermons (or the one I heard) he failed to hit on this period. It seemed as if in his view if one was not living radically for Christ when he preached they were false converts and loved their sin. This probably goes to show that Washer made a mistake.

As Mark Dever points out in his excellent book What Is A Healthy Church?, Christians can and do sin. So, what's the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-Christian who sins?

I have that book. What pages?

The Christian will always take God's side against sin. He or she will call sin "sin." The believer will always agree with God that something He calls sin is, indeed, a sin and will always seek to be rid of that sin, understanding there may be slip-ups and back-slides, etc. But, with the help of the local congregation, he or she can be rid of the beloved sin. But, like the alcoholic, he or she will always have that particular sin as a week point.

I am learning more of my respectable sins in a book I am reading by Bridges. In Washers language a respectable sin means I am lost, but in Bridges vernacular I just need to pray and word with God on overcoming these sins. In my case anxiety, worry, judgmentalism, and such. I believe I also have sinned by causing division with Arminian (intentional) on the streets.

The non-Christian, on the other hand, will always take sin's side against God--always seeking to justify himself or herself while denying whatever sin or sins they "love" are sins in the first place.

Exactly. I meet people like this on the streets all the time. They say they got saved, yet love their wheed ,love their alcohol, love their sex, and refuse to read the Bible, and call me a legalist for going to it. Not saying drinking a beverage is bad, however a lifestyle of drinking and drunkedeness is sin.

One only need look at the so-called idea of a "Gay Christian" (which means, in this context, one who is actively in or pursuing a same-sex lifestyle and/or relationship while also pretending to be a fully-devoted "Christian"). But, we shouldn't restrict it to homosexuality alone. Many heterosexuals pursue sexual expression out of the only biblical route of expression, too. Even in the realm of money, pride, prestige, etc. there are those who are actively loving their sin above all else while pretending to follow Christ. Of course, many excuses are made: I'm doing it for my family, I was made this way and who am I to change, it isn't really a sin....

All of these are evidence that someone is loving his or her sin more than Christ. As a pastor, my concern is not those who struggle against sin (even if there are setbacks). I think it's likely we are struggling together as we are progressively sanctified by Christ. Instead, my concern is those who won't even engage in the struggle.

Christ is quite clear: If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. For it is better to be maimed in this life than to be disqualified from the Kingdom of Heaven (my paraphrase).

According to Christ, sin is serious business and sin deserves no terms, no quarter, no fair treatment. It must be killed. As someone else has said: Be killing sin or sin will be killing you.

In the end, it is a matter of the heart and it deserves some soul-searching. Do we love sin more than Christ??? Is there something we are refusing to sacrifice for His glory? Are you taking sin's side against God, making excuses why God should let you do something He defines as sin? Then, the accusations of the Washerites might just be accurate....

Blessings,

The Archangel

In my case I desire money to pay off debts. Is that evil? I would love lots of money to not only pay off debts, but donate to ministries, and have retirement, and take care of my family. Is my desire of money evil?

 

[Winman]

Point said. I was at the Gymn and listening to a sermon by both Erwin Lutzer (moderate Calvinist) and Charles Stanley (Arminian) and none preached Lordship, and both emphasized the cross of Christ, God's love, etc.. None of the preaches avoided HELL, sin, God's judgment on man, etc...

The problem with Lordship salvation is that it is so complex and so few understand it which seems to be go against 2 Pet 3:9. If so few can fully understand Lordship Salvation books as most these days lack the intellectual capabilities to comprehend. That said I agree with some of Lordship Salvation and against easy-believism, however I have to wonder if Washer really fully listens to sermons and reads books of those that he attacks. One needs to preach hard on sin, but they must seriously also preach on the Cross and God's love for sinners.

Lordship Salvation cannot be understood. Ask any person who is into LS how much sin you must sin to be lost and they will not be able to answer you. I have done this dozens of times and they NEVER answer, because they don't know themselves.

Or ask them how good you must be to prove you are saved, and you will get the same answer, SILENCE.

Now, they will tell you over and over again that Jesus must be the Lord of your life to be saved, but they can never explain it in a practical way that a person can understand and perform.

And that is the problem right there, it is teaching that you must PERFORM to be saved. That is works.

When Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well, what did he tell her she had to do to get saved? Let's look.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Now, I think you would agree with me that Jesus already knew this woman had been married and divorced 5 times, and was now living with a man in sin. Did Jesus tell her she had to quit that sin to be saved? NO. Did Jesus tell her she had to repent of all her sins to be saved? NO.

All he said was ASK. It doesn't get EASIER than that. If she would simply ask him, he would have given her living water, which is the Holy Spirit.

Here is a good video, although it will certainly offend the Calvinists here. But it is more about Lordship Salvation than Calvinism. You might want to skip the first three minutes, that is about when he gets down to actually explaining why LS is a problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xpnX2TxwRo

The scriptures say salvation is a "free gift". We don't have to work for it, just receive it.

 

[The Archangel]

I have that book. What pages?

Page 40; 1st full paragraph.

In my case I desire money to pay off debts. Is that evil? I would love lots of money to not only pay off debts, but donate to ministries, and have retirement, and take care of my family. Is my desire of money evil?

It all depends, doesn't it? Being debt free isn't bad in and of itself. That said, I don't know if there are any underlying, "evil" reasons in your heart for wanting to pay off these debts. That's something I can't know. Pray for God to reveal them to you if they are there.

Also, are you "abandoning" your family to make money to pay off these debts and donate to ministries? Are you working so hard to accomplish these good goals that they never see you? In that case, I'd think there's a problem. Again, I don't know if it is the case--and you may not either. Pray for God to show you your heart.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Lordship Salvation cannot be understood. Ask any person who is into LS how much sin you must sin to be lost and they will not be able to answer you. I have done this dozens of times and they NEVER answer, because they don't know themselves.

Or ask them how good you must be to prove you are saved, and you will get the same answer, SILENCE.

Now, they will tell you over and over again that Jesus must be the Lord of your life to be saved, but they can never explain it in a practical way that a person can understand and perform.

And that is the problem right there, it is teaching that you must PERFORM to be saved. That is works.

Well... you couldn't be more wrong......

Lordship salvation is easily understood--and it isn't about dotting "i"s and crossing "t"s. It isn't about "works," it's about your heart.

Since I referenced this in this thread already, I'll reproduce it here:

I often tell my congregation that when it comes to battling sin in our lives, the difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that non-Christians sin whereas Christians don't. The difference is found in which sides we take in the battle. Christians take God's side against sin, whereas non-Christians take sin's side against God. In other words, a Christian will sin, but then he will turn to God and his Word and say, "Help me fight against sin." A non-Christian, even if he recognizes his sin, effectively responds, "I want my sin more than God."

-Mark Dever, What Is A Healthy Church? (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2007), 40. (Author's emphasis)
​

So, someone who denies Lordship salvation (and lives like they do) is one who will take sin's side against God.

Lordship salvation is a matter of the heart condition, not works performed. Are we, as Christians, called to do good works? Absolutely. But, our good works are the result of our salvation, not the cause of our salvation.

If someone is claiming to be a Christian and is consistently taking sin's side against God, then the "fruits" of repentance and faith are not present. But, this is a determination that isn't made in a 5-minute observation.

The scriptures say salvation is a "free gift". We don't have to work for it, just receive it.

Yes, but if we are "new creations" in Christ, there should be a marked difference in who we are and how we act because our hearts should now desire different things--especially as it relates to sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Well... you couldn't be more wrong......

Lordship salvation is easily understood--and it isn't about dotting "i"s and crossing "t"s. It isn't about "works," it's about your heart.

Since I referenced this in this thread already, I'll reproduce it here:

I often tell my congregation that when it comes to battling sin in our lives, the difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that non-Christians sin whereas Christians don't. The difference is found in which sides we take in the battle. Christians take God's side against sin, whereas non-Christians take sin's side against God. IN other words, a Christian will sin, but then he will turn to God and his Word and say, "Help me fight against sin." A non-Christian, even if he recognizes his sin, effectively responds, "I want my sin more than God."



-Mark Dever, What Is A Healthy Church? (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2007), 40. (Author's emphasis)
​

So, someone who denies Lordship salvation (and lives like they do) is one who will take sin's side against God.

Lordship salvation is a matter of the heart condition, not works performed. Are we, as Christians, called to do good works? Absolutely. But, our good works are the result of our salvation, not the cause of our salvation.

If someone is claiming to be a Christian and is consistently taking sin's side against God, then the "fruits" of repentance and faith are not present. But, this is a determination that isn't made in a 5-minute observation.



Yes, but if we are "new creations" in Christ, there should be a marked difference in who we are and how we act because our hearts should now desire different things--especially as it relates to sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

That sounds real nice, but experience has shown me otherwise. Lordship Salvation promotes denial of sin and self-righteousness. That is exactly what Evan is encountering on Facebook, a bunch of self-righteous "fruit counters" that are positive he is not saved because he does not live up to their standard of what a "real Christian" should look like or believe.

You want to meet a bunch of real hypocrites, then hang around with Lordship Salvation folks. These guys are oblivious to their own sin, because they spend so much time examining you to make sure you are a real Christian.

Live and learn.

 

[The Archangel]

That sounds real nice, but experience has shown me otherwise. Lordship Salvation promotes denial of sin and self-righteousness. That is exactly what Even is encountering on Facebook, a bunch of self-righteous "fruit counters" that are positive he is not saved because he does not live up to their standard of what a "real Christian" should look like or believe.

You want to meet a bunch of real hypocrites, then hang around with Lordship Salvation folks. These guys are oblivious to their own sin, because they spend so much time examining you to make sure you are a real Christian.

Live and learn.

It is you who must learn.

You asked for an answer and were provided with one that answered your objections. You just didn't like the answer.

But, to label all who believe Lordship Salvation as "hypocrites" is both wrong and laughable. It is an issue of particular smallness when one takes his own limited experience and makes a universal application of that limited experience to everyone else--and that's exactly what you've done here.

Lordship Salvation in no way promoted denial of sin. You simply have no clue, likely because your "sample" set is too small. So, you are talking as someone without knowledge.

If you want to see what real Lordship Salvation looks like, spend some time at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. Until you do, however, quit pretending you know what you're talking about on this issue.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

It is you who must learn.

You asked for an answer and were provided with one that answered your objections. You just didn't like the answer.

But, to label all who believe Lordship Salvation as "hypocrites" is both wrong and laughable. It is an issue of particular smallness when one takes his own limited experience and makes a universal application of that limited experience to everyone else--and that's exactly what you've done here.

Lordship Salvation in no way promoted denial of sin. You simply have no clue, likely because your "sample" set is too small. So, you are talking as someone without knowledge.

If you want to see what real Lordship Salvation looks like, spend some time at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. Until you do, however, quit pretending you know what you're talking about on this issue.

The Archangel

Oh, you mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sl3Zxzn-BI

Do you spend every Sunday questioning your church member's salvation like this?

Nah, that never happens.

 

[The Archangel]

Oh, you mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sl3Zxzn-BI

Do you spend every Sunday questioning your church member's salvation like this?

Nah, that never happens.

And, of course, you been to MY church, right? If you haven't (and I doubt you have) you are making a false claim. And, I might add, it's highly doubtful if you've listened to the entire message Mark delivered. And, furthermore, it wasn't delivered at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. It was delivered at the Together For The Gospel conference in Louisville, KY.

As far as what Mark was preaching about--False Conversions--this is a real and legitimate issue. If the Bible says, as it does, the following, then you have not one leg to stand on as far as criticizing Mark for questioning church members' salvation:

-Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV; emphasis mine)

-As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. (1 Timothy 5:20 ESV)​

Paul questioned the salvation of church members. So, it should be no problem if Mark Dever or I do it.

The Archangel