I am a false convert, love my sin, and headed to hell!!

[Rippon]

Why would you tell any sinner to believe when it is impossible for them to do so?

Because the Lord has commanded us to --that's why.

 

[Winman]

Of course, it's not me who wrote 1 Corinthians 6.... So, your argument is with Paul--and with Christ in Matthew 19:7-9. Does Paul expect a man with a broken leg to run? Does Christ?

Of course, your comprehension on this issue ran off its rails a long time ago. Those who hold to Lordship Salvation, for the most part, do not suggest or require that sinners stop sinning. Again, it's a matter of the heart. Is the heart desiring sin above Christ? Is the so-called Christian sinning all they want with no guilt or repentance? Is the so-called Christian making excuses for their sin rather than repenting? If that's the case, there's no fruit of repentance and that lack of fruit (observed over a period of time, not a snapshot of time) gives evidence that the heart is wrong and unsaved--because, after all, out of the heart flow all sorts of sin. The actions, after all, show the condition of the heart.

So, you can deny the necessity of repentance and the necessity to live a transformed life, but you do so at your own peril as you kick against the goads.

The Archangel

Oh, they say they do not preach that a person must stop sinning to be saved, but they also preach that if you keep sinning you are not saved.

They never tell you how bad you have to be to prove you are not saved, or how good you have to be to prove you are saved. They only know that they are saved, and you aren't. :laugh:

Most Calvinists are Lordship Salvationists, which is absolutely nonsensical. You believe sinners cannot repent of their sin, and yet you expect them to repent of their sin to be saved. You believe they cannot believe, and yet you expect them to believe to be saved. Nonsensical.

 

[convicted1]

Oh, they say they do not preach that a person must stop sinning to be saved, but they also preach that if you keep sinning you are not saved.

They never tell you how bad you have to be to prove you are not saved, or how good you have to be to prove you are saved. They only know that they are saved, and you aren't. :laugh:

Most Calvinists are Lordship Salvationists, which is absolutely nonsensical. You believe sinners cannot repent of their sin, and yet you expect them to repent of their sin to be saved. You believe they cannot believe, and yet you expect them to believe to be saved. Nonsensical.

Saints and sinners both sin. No one on here has ever said anything to the contrary. The difference is a saint will repent of their sins, and sinners keep on revelling in them....

 

[JamesL]

Originally Posted by Winman
It is you missing the point, read again.

He is not telling them they must stop sinning to be saved.

This doesn't say stop sinning to be saved, it says to believe the gospel.

Funny, 1 Corinthians 6 says exactly the opposite...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

If, as 1 Corinthians 6 says, the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom and then it identifies what it means to be unrighteous--being a sinner, then one probably needs to stop sinning to be saved. Or, more properly understood, one needs to take God's side against sin, not sin's side against God.

A true Christian cannot argue that he or she can sin all they want.

It is you that is lacking in comprehension here.

The Archangel

Archangel,
You misunderstand what it means to inherit the Kingdom of God. It's the same as inheriting eternal life, which is not the same as "going to heaven"

Mark 10:17
As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

Did Jesus tell him "Believe in Me" ?? No. He said "Keep the commandments". When the ruler replied that he had, Jesus said he lacked one thing - Follow Me

1Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps


Matthew 19:28-29
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

The inheritance will come "in the regeneration" when the resurrection happens:

1Cor 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


If we have to wait until the resurrection to know if we're going to heaven, then we're all short of assurance


The inheritance will come to those believers who have been predestined to suffer with Christ. Not every believer has been predestined for this inheritance, though they will still "make it" to heaven


Our inheritance is a reward:

Colossians 3:23-25
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.


Our reward will be determined by the quality of any works we have left after they are tested by fire:

1Cor 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


He himself will be saved, even if he does not inherit eternal life/Kingdom of God

 

[convicted1]

Eternal life does not equate going to heaven? Please expound....

 

[convicted1]

We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ right now. That means we get the inheritance of being around the throne of God in heaven. We have eternal life the very instance He completes His conversion within our souls.

 

[convicted1]

Brother,

Christ didn't die to make sin a possibility, but an reality. It's real to those who He chooses, and others gladly go to hell.

Oopsy....I meant salvation a possibility and NOT sin....again...oopsy...

 

[JamesL]

Eternal life does not equate going to heaven? Please expound....

Eternal life is presented as a present reality and a future reward.

Every single time that scripture presents eternal life as a present reality, it is always through faith alone - every single time, without any exceptions

John 3:15
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 17:3
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

1 Timothy 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1John 5:11-13
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.



Yet, every time eternal life is presented as a future possession, it is always, without fail, coupled with works - 100% of the time. First, though is the basis of our endurance:

John 4:10, 14
Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The living water that Jesus spoke about is the Holy Spirit (See John 7:37-39), who helps us endure in faith and good works:

Romans 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

2Tim 1:13-14
Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.


Before anyone thinks I'm advocating that we endure on our own accord, it is only because of the Holy Spirit who is in us that we endure. This is commonly called sanctification:

Romans 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.


Several accounts of someone asking Jesus how to inherit or obtain eternal life, I'll reference one:

Luke 18:18
A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

Luke 18:26-30
They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?”
But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”
Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.”
And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”


In every account where Jesus later expounds to his disciples, He tells them that every one who follows Him, and forsakes all, will receive eternal life in the age to come. In Matthew 19:28-29, which is the same setting, He says it will be "in the regeneration" which is the resurrection

And there are other scriptures in which a future eternal life is determined by works (actually faith full of works, or faithfulness):

Romans 2:7
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I've already quoted scripture which shows that our inheritance is a reward. Here is Jesus' word on the matter:

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


to be continued...

 

[JamesL]

We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ right now. That means we get the inheritance of being around the throne of God in heaven. We have eternal life the very instance He completes His conversion within our souls.

As I mentioned in my last post, we do have eternal life upon conversion - when we believe upon Christ alone. But are we automatically joint-heirs? Absolutely not. Paul wrote very plainly:

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


Paul made it very clear that we are joint-heirs with Christ and share in His glory IF we suffer with Him.

Now, here is one scripture where many get tripped up regarding being a child of God. If you have a Strong's concordance, look at two different words:

G5043 - teknon - child. We are children of God upon conversion. But there is another word which has a totally different meaning:

G5207 - huios - son. Although most believe this simply means "male offspring", this is not really the case. In the mind of the Jews, a son was an heir.


Hebrews 11:17 says that Isaac was Abraham's "monogene" (G3439), translated as "only son". This is also used of Jesus in John 3:16, where Jesus said that God gave His monogene, or Only Son.

Why is this important? Because when we go back to Genesis 15:1-4, where God first made the promise to Abraham about a son, God started off by telling Abraham "Your reward shall be great"

To that, Abraham said, "what shall you give me since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer?"

Right there, the reward is automatically thought of as an inheritance, thus the need for an heir.

Then, when we go to Gen 21:10-13, when Sarah told Abraham to drive out Hagar and Ishmael:

“Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.” The matter distressed Abraham greatly because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant.”


Very interesting. Sarah said "Her son shall not be an heir with my son Isaac."

Ishmael is never called Abraham's son here, thought he is called Abraham's offspring. But he is Hagar's son.

Then when we get to chapter 22, where Abraham is willing to offer Isaac, he is commended for not withholding his "only son" (verses 12 & 16)

But wait a minute. Isaac wasn't the only male offspring of Abraham, as 21:13 clearly indicates. How is that? Because the son was the heir.

Even later, in the Law, a son was the heir. The inheritance passed to the sons, not the daughters (unless there was no son - c.f. Deut 21:15-17, Num 27:8). So important was the son as an heir, that if a man died without a son, his brother would raise up a son for the dead man, with consequences for a man's refusal to raise up a son for his brother (Deut 25:5-10)


But how many times did God choose the younger one to receive a birthright? Several. It is by His choosing. He predestines some to the inheritance.


Back to Romans 8:17 again, where Paul said we are children of God (teknon) already. But joint-heirs if we suffer with Christ. Then he says:

Rom 8:18-19
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons (huios) of God.

The sons of God (joint-heirs) will be revealed at the resurrection (verse 23)
That's when Jesus said we will inherit eternal life (Matt 19:28-29)


Paul then seemingly goes into left field with a rant about Predestination. But it's not a rant at all. He says that those whom God foreknew (as sons), He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (huiou), so that He (Christ) would be the firstborn of many brothers (see Hebrews 2:9-11)


Then Paul starts speaking of suffering again - I know that nothing will separate us fro the love of God (verses 35-39). This is HOW we are conformed to His image (1Pet 2:21)

Then again, Paul starts in again with God's sovereign choice in chapter 9. He has an interesting choice of words in verses 19-21

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


From the same lump - interesting. But from this same lump He makes some vessels of honor and others for common use.

Look what Paul said in 2TIm 2:20-21
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

Paul again says that there are vessels of honor and dishonor. But look what makes one a vessel of honor here - cleansing himself of wickedness (verse 19)

Paul is speaking of works. Abstaining from wickedness. Not on our own, but by the power of the Holy Spirit (1:14). The believer who cleanses himself is a vessel of honor, while the obvious implication is that the believer (same lump) who doesn't cleanse himself is a vessel for common use


I didn't intend to go so much into Predestination, but that is what Paul taught. God predestined some to be vessels of honor by placing them on the path of suffering to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we endure, we will make our calling and election sure.

Election to an inheritance, as joint-heirs. Election is not God choosing who will go to heaven or not, it is His choice in who has an inheritance. Not all believers will qualify

Some were predestined to overcome, and become sons.

John 1:12 says that as many as received Him, to them He gave the POWER (Holy Spirit) to become sons. He never said we are already sons. Here is Jesus' word on it again:

Revelation 21:7
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


but then He had one more tidbit:

Rev 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, you have given me much data to process....can you give me your condensed version, please?

 

[evangelist6589]

I know that is what you believe. So why do you tell this depraved pig to repent when you know it is impossible for him to do so? Does that make sense?

Why would you tell any sinner to believe when it is impossible for them to do so?

See, Calvinism doesn't make sense. Now, being a non-Cal does, because we believe a person can both repent and believe on Jesus to be saved, so it makes perfect sense to preach to them to repent and believe.

It makes no sense to tell someone to repent and believe in Calvinism. They couldn't do it if they wanted to, and they cannot even want to. Nonsensical.

The good folks on the forum

http://www.thecalvinistcafe.org/forum/

Are awaiting your arrival to sign up here. The mods are very anxious to meet you.

 

[JamesL]

Brother, you have given me much data to process....can you give me your condensed version, please?

Yowza. That was already the condensed version - lol

By the way...I'm glad to see you back. Ok, back to the task at hand.


In scripture, having eternal life is now. Thru faith in Christ alone. Without works of any kind.

And we are absolutely and unconditionally eternally secure.

But inheriting eternal life is a reward that will be given to those believers whose faith is complete, enduring in good works. It will happen when we are judged at the resurrection

 

[Winman]

Saints and sinners both sin. No one on here has ever said anything to the contrary. The difference is a saint will repent of their sins, and sinners keep on revelling in them....

Sinners can't repent in Calvinism. Sinners can't believe in Calvinism.

If only regenerate saints can repent and believe, then it is useless to preach to sinners.

The only one who can respond to your preaching is someone who is already regenerated. Why does a regenerated person need to repent and believe?

If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate.

Spurgeon realized how ridiculous it is to preach repentance and faith to a man who is already regenerate, but what he failed to realize is that in Calvinism an unregenerate man cannot possibly repent and believe, so it is just as ridiculous to preach repentance and faith to him.

You simply don't see how nonsensical Calvinism is.

 

[prophet]

Sinners can't repent in Calvinism. Sinners can't believe in Calvinism.

If only regenerate saints can repent and believe, then it is useless to preach to sinners.

The only one who can respond to your preaching is someone who is already regenerated. Why does a regenerated person need to repent and believe?



Spurgeon realized how ridiculous it is to preach repentance and faith to a man who is already regenerate, but what he failed to realize is that in Calvinism an unregenerate man cannot possibly repent and believe, so it is just as ridiculous to preach repentance and faith to him.

You simply don't see how nonsensical Calvinism is.

Therein lieth the rub, no?

 

[RLBosley]

Spurgeon realized how ridiculous it is to preach repentance and faith to a man who is already regenerate, but what he failed to realize is that in Calvinism an unregenerate man cannot possibly repent and believe, so it is just as ridiculous to preach repentance and faith to him.

You simply don't see how nonsensical Calvinism is.

Stop ripping Spurgeon out of context and misleading (outright lying??) about what Spurgeon taught and believed. Do you even know where that quote comes from? Have you read the actual source?

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not missing anything, I am pointing out how foolish your doctrine is.

You are mistaken again as you do not grasp the supernatural element of regeneration.

You believe it is impossible for men to repent or believe unless God regenerates them,

yes...the biblical teaching

and then in the next breath you tell that man to do what you just told him is impossible for him to do, to repent and believe.

If you can't see how messed up that is, you are in serious trouble

.

:laugh::laugh: Yes...that is as messed up as when Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch forth his hand.....the very thing he could not do...if he could stretch it forth his withered hand...it would not be withered......God enabled him to do what he could not do,as God grants repentance and faith to the elect.......try again Winman:laugh::wavey:

 

[Winman]

Therein lieth the rub, no?

Oh, they'll tell you that preaching the gospel to that sinner will regenerate him, but that is impossible, he will absolutely refuse to listen to it. He hates God and he cannot possibly will to be saved. He cannot possibly understand the gospel until he is regenerated according to Calvinism.

Nope, he has to be regenerated BEFORE you preach the gospel so that he will be able to understand it, and willing to listen to it, repent and believe.

Now that is MESSED UP.

 

[prophet]

Oh, they'll tell you that preaching the gospel to that sinner will regenerate him, but that is impossible, he will absolutely refuse to listen to it. He hates God and he cannot possibly will to be saved.

Nope, he has to be regenerated BEFORE you preach the gospel so that he will be willing to listen to it, repent and believe.

Now that is MESSED UP.

Seems the Great Commission was an exercise in futility.

No wonder Darby had to come up with his Dispensational system, to defend Calvinism....there was a lot to try to defend.
But, if you can push everything ,that doesn't fit in your system, off on Israel..Bingo! Problem solved.

Election...another word for "choice".

It's that simple.

Paul said "I", here:

2Ti 1:12
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things:nevertheless I am not ashamed:for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

"I" committed the safe keeping of my soul to Christ....hmmmm.

This verse undermines both Arms and Cals.

 

[prophet]

:laugh::laugh: Yes...that is as messed up as when Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch forth his hand.....the very thing he could not do...if he could stretch it forth his withered hand...it would not be withered......God enabled him to do what he could not do,as God grants repentance and faith to the elect.......try again Winman:laugh::wavey:

Act 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Why haven't all repented, then?

 

[Iconoclast]

Act 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Why haven't all repented, then?

God has not planned to save all men. Salvation happens by means...preaching, convicting by the Spirit, drawing, it happens right on time ,one sinner at a time coming to Jesus as god regenerates them.

No where in scripture has God planned to save all. He will save a multitude in His Son.