Some arguments against Arminianism

[RLBosley]

My complement to Jordan’s similarly titled thread.

I know some will try and be clever; “I’m not an Arminian, I’m a “Non-Calvinist.” So this doesn’t apply to me.”

Whatever. If I’m labeled a Calvinist despite my disagreements with much of Calvin’s teaching simply because I am a monergist, then you, synergist, are an Arminian. Or Roman Catholic, take your pick.

For the record, I’m not even wild about being called a Reformed Baptist since they tend to identify with the 1689 LBC. I do not.

Anyway…

If God bases his election of sinners on foreseen faith, then God is not making a genuine choice but is simply reacting to his creation. In this system, the creature is freer than the creator, which is contrary to both scripture and logic. Taken to its extreme conclusion, this would mean that God looks forward in time to learn what his creation will do, thus overturning God’s omniscience. This is why some, James White for example, have said the only consistent Arminian is an Open Theist.

However, scripture says that God is free to act and do whatever he pleases with his creation. God is not constrained by any of man’s choices and none of his plans ever fail. He has infallible foreknowledge because he has planned all things and works all things out according to his will.

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? - Lam 3:37-38 NASB

Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. - Psa 135:6 NASB

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. - Isa 46:10-11 NASB

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?" - Jer 32:27 NASB

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - Jhn 1:12-13 NASB

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Rom 9:15-16 NASB

Also, if God bases his election of us off of foreseen faith, then is not this faith something within us that is motivating God to save us? If it is the motivation for God giving us salvation then isn’t it something that we do that merits our salvation?
Scripture instead teaches that God will save whom he will save. His election is based off of his own, unknown, will. It is his free choice, not mans. Yes faith is necessary, but this faith itself is a gift and God himself first grants and works salvation in us.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple. - Psa 65:4 NASB

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. - Jhn 6:37-39 NASB

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." - Jhn 8:47 NASB

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. - Jhn 10:26-28 NASB

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. - Rom 9:18 NASB

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. - Rom 12:3 NASB

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, - Eph 1:4-5 NASB

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - Phl 1:29 NASB

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, - 1Pe 1:3 NASB

Also, only in the Calvinist (monergist) system does God actually accomplish salvation at the cross. Only the Calvinist can say that the cross actually saved anyone. For the Arminian, the cross didn’t save anyone; it only made all men savable. There is a massive difference between the two.

Scripture, however, affirms that salvation itself was accomplished at the cross.

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. - Jhn 19:30 NASB

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. - Col 1:19-20 NASB

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Col 2:13-14 NASB

and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. - Heb 9:12 NASB

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. - Heb 10:12-14 NASB

knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. - 1Pe 1:18-19 NASB

and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. - 1Pe 2:24 NASB

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- - Rev 1:5 NASB


More can be said, but I think this is sufficient for now.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ROFL....You know what you just did:laugh: right!?

 

[RLBosley]

ROFL....You know what you just did:laugh: right!?

I haven't a clue...

Hit the reset button on the other thread most likely...

 

[RLBosley]

Side note, is it just me or is it kind of hard to see the verses compared to my notes/commentary? Any suggestions for a better way to format?

 

[Winman]

My complement to Jordan’s similarly titled thread.

I know some will try and be clever; “I’m not an Arminian, I’m a “Non-Calvinist.” So this doesn’t apply to me.”

Whatever. If I’m labeled a Calvinist despite my disagreements with much of Calvin’s teaching simply because I am a monergist, then you, synergist, are an Arminian. Or Roman Catholic, take your pick.

Fair enough. I am a OSAS Arminian. :thumbsup:

For the record, I’m not even wild about being called a Reformed Baptist since they tend to identify with the 1689 LBC. I do not.

Anyway…

If God bases his election of sinners on foreseen faith, then God is not making a genuine choice but is simply reacting to his creation. In this system, the creature is freer than the creator, which is contrary to both scripture and logic. Taken to its extreme conclusion, this would mean that God looks forward in time to learn what his creation will do, thus overturning God’s omniscience. This is why some, James White for example, have said the only consistent Arminian is an Open Theist.

Sure God has made a genuine choice. He has chosen to save those persons who trust his Son Jesus. Why can't God choose this?

However, scripture says that God is free to act and do whatever he pleases with his creation. God is not constrained by any of man’s choices and none of his plans ever fail. He has infallible foreknowledge because he has planned all things and works all things out according to his will.

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? - Lam 3:37-38 NASB

Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. - Psa 135:6 NASB

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. - Isa 46:10-11 NASB

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?" - Jer 32:27 NASB

God choosing to save those persons that trust Jesus doesn't usurp God's sovereignty in any way whatsoever. This is whom God has determined to save and in the manner he has determined to save them. This is not complicated.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - Jhn 1:12-13 NASB

Yep, to those that received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to be born again, to become the sons of God. This was all his idea, and he is the only one who can do this.

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Rom 9:15-16 NASB

Yep, he has chosen to have mercy on those that trust his Son. Again, this was all God's idea, man had nothing to do with it.

Also, if God bases his election of us off of foreseen faith, then is not this faith something within us that is motivating God to save us? If it is the motivation for God giving us salvation then isn’t it something that we do that merits our salvation?

We couldn't believe the gospel unless God had revealed it to us.

Does a man dying of thirst get credit if another man gives him a cold glass of water to drink that saves him from dying because he drank it?

Scripture instead teaches that God will save whom he will save. His election is based off of his own, unknown, will. It is his free choice, not mans. Yes faith is necessary, but this faith itself is a gift and God himself first grants and works salvation in us.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple. - Psa 65:4 NASB

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. - Jhn 6:37-39 NASB

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." - Jhn 8:47 NASB

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. - Jhn 10:26-28 NASB

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. - Rom 9:18 NASB

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. - Rom 12:3 NASB

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, - Eph 1:4-5 NASB

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, - Phl 1:29 NASB

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, - 1Pe 1:3 NASB

Also, only in the Calvinist (monergist) system does God actually accomplish salvation at the cross. Only the Calvinist can say that the cross actually saved anyone. For the Arminian, the cross didn’t save anyone; it only made all men savable. There is a massive difference between the two.

Scripture, however, affirms that salvation itself was accomplished at the cross.

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. - Jhn 19:30 NASB

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. - Col 1:19-20 NASB

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Col 2:13-14 NASB

and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. - Heb 9:12 NASB

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. - Heb 10:12-14 NASB

knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. - 1Pe 1:18-19 NASB

and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. - 1Pe 2:24 NASB

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- - Rev 1:5 NASB


More can be said, but I think this is sufficient for now.

Exactly, God saves whom he wants to save, and he has chosen to save those that believe on his Son, and chosen not to save those who refuse to believe on Jesus.

Why can't God save men this way?

 

[RLBosley]

Fair enough. I am a OSAS Arminian. :thumbsup:

As I once was. See there's hope for you yet! :tongue3:

Sure God has made a genuine choice. He has chosen to save those persons who trust his Son Jesus. Why can't God choose this?

The issue isn't what God could or couldn't do. The issue is what does scripture say God has done? And yes those who believe will be saved. but believe is contingent on what? The drawing of certain people by the Father and then giving them to the Son, i.e., election.

God choosing to save those persons that trust Jesus doesn't usurp God's sovereignty in any way whatsoever. This is whom God has determined to save and in the manner he has determined to save them. This is not complicated.

Saying that God basis his choosing off of the actions of his creature does usurp his sovereignty and ultimately omniscience. scripture consistently portrays God as being the one who acts first, with creation reacting to him and his determination. Not the other way around as Arminianism demands.

Yep, to those that received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to be born again, to become the sons of God. This was all his idea, and he is the only one who can do this.

And what is the basis of their receiving Jesus? Being born again by the will of God, not their own will.

Yep, he has chosen to have mercy on those that trust his Son. Again, this was all God's idea, man had nothing to do with it.

And who will trust the Son?

We couldn't believe the gospel unless God had revealed it to us.

Does a man dying of thirst get credit if another man gives him a cold glass of water to drink that saves him from dying because he drank it?

We weren't dying. We were dead. Can a dead man take credit for someone breathing life into him?

This supposedly is in response to my statement that if election is based on foreseen faith, isn't that foreseen faith something that motivates or merits our salvation? This statement doesn't deal with that issue.

Exactly, God saves whom he wants to save, and he has chosen to save those that believe on his Son, and chosen not to save those who refuse to believe on Jesus.

Why can't God save men this way?

Again, the issue isn't what could God have done, but what has God done?

Yes God saves those who believe. That isn't the issue at all. The fundamental disagreement is what is the basis for our believing the Son? Our own faith that we conjure up in ourselves, or is it a gift of God given to the elect?

Also, you seemed to have missed this from my OP:

Also, only in the Calvinist (monergist) system does God actually accomplish salvation at the cross. Only the Calvinist can say that the cross actually saved anyone. For the Arminian, the cross didn’t save anyone; it only made all men savable. There is a massive difference between the two.

Scripture, however, affirms that salvation itself was accomplished at the cross.

 

[Revmitchell]

I know some will try and be clever; “I’m not an Arminian, I’m a “Non-Calvinist.” So this doesn’t apply to me.”

Whatever. If I’m labeled a Calvinist despite my disagreements with much of Calvin’s teaching simply because I am a monergist, then you, synergist, are an Arminian. Or Roman Catholic, take your pick.

I do not care what you call your self or identify with that does not make anyone else an Arminian. Nothing clever about that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Reasons against....Winman and van hold to it.....lol

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Reasons against....Winman and van hold to it.....lol

LOL.......I would say they are more like Semi Pelagians....like believing the sin of Adam affected no one but himself; Those born since Adam have been born into the same condition Adam was before his fall, that is, into a position of neutrality so far as sin is concerned & finally that human beings are able to live free from sin, if they want to.

In fact this is probably the POV that most hold to today.

 

[steaver]

LOL.......I would say they are more like Semi Pelagians....like believing the sin of Adam affected no one but himself; Those born since Adam have been born into the same condition Adam was before his fall, that is, into a position of neutrality so far as sin is concerned & finally that human beings are able to live free from sin, if they want to.

In fact this is probably the POV that most hold to today.

Our denomination does not hold that POV, don't know about all the others.
We are born sinners.

 

[Winman]

As I once was. See there's hope for you yet! :tongue3:

Well, if you think I will ever be a Calvinist you are in for a disappointment.

The issue isn't what God could or couldn't do. The issue is what does scripture say God has done? And yes those who believe will be saved. but believe is contingent on what? The drawing of certain people by the Father and then giving them to the Son, i.e., election.

Yes it is. Calvinists insist God does not elect someone according to foreseen faith, it is written right into many of your creeds, so don't try to tell me different.

You guys actually think you can tell God what he can or can't do. Amazing.

Saying that God basis his choosing off of the actions of his creature does usurp his sovereignty and ultimately omniscience. scripture consistently portrays God as being the one who acts first, with creation reacting to him and his determination. Not the other way around as Arminianism demands.

No it doesn't. Why can't God choose to elect those he sees will believe? If he is sovereign, he can elect persons for any reason he chooses can't he?

And what is the basis of their receiving Jesus? Being born again by the will of God, not their own will.

You couldn't regenerate yourself if you wanted to, but God has chosen to regenerate those persons who believe on his son Jesus. And why can't he do this?

And who will trust the Son?

Those who choose to.

We weren't dying. We were dead. Can a dead man take credit for someone breathing life into him?

Spiritually dead doesn't mean the same thing as physically dead. Can a dead man bury someone? Yet Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead.

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

This supposedly is in response to my statement that if election is based on foreseen faith, isn't that foreseen faith something that motivates or merits our salvation? This statement doesn't deal with that issue.

Faith does not merit anything, it is not a work. Faith is always contrasted to works in the scriptures, always.

Again, the issue isn't what could God have done, but what has God done?

It is Calvinists that insist God could not elect someone according to foreseen faith. It is Calvinists that try to tell God what he can do and what he cannot do. Sounds like you guys are the ones trying to usurp God's sovereignty, he can do whatever he likes whether you like it or not.

Yes God saves those who believe. That isn't the issue at all. The fundamental disagreement is what is the basis for our believing the Son? Our own faith that we conjure up in ourselves, or is it a gift of God given to the elect?

We believe because God has revealed the gospel to us. No man could believe if God had not done this, you cannot believe what you do not know.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how a person shall believe on Jesus unless they be regenerated? NOPE.

Does Paul ask how a person shall believe on Jesus unless they hear of him? YES.

So, what does that imply is necessary to believe? Please answer.

Also, you seemed to have missed this from my OP:

Also, only in the Calvinist (monergist) system does God actually accomplish salvation at the cross. Only the Calvinist can say that the cross actually saved anyone. For the Arminian, the cross didn’t save anyone; it only made all men savable. There is a massive difference between the two.

Scripture, however, affirms that salvation itself was accomplished at the cross.

God has accomplished exactly what he set out to do. Jesus is the Saviour of all men, but especially those that believe.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Jesus is the Saviour of all men, but especially those that believe. What does this mean? It means Jesus dying on the cross was sufficient to save any man, but it only effectually applies and profits those who believe on Jesus as God the Father has commanded. He will only save those who believe on Jesus, and this was his choice.

 

[Winman]

LOL.......I would say they are more like Semi Pelagians....like believing the sin of Adam affected no one but himself; Those born since Adam have been born into the same condition Adam was before his fall, that is, into a position of neutrality so far as sin is concerned & finally that human beings are able to live free from sin, if they want to.

In fact this is probably the POV that most hold to today.

Van believes all men are born dead in sin, separated from God. I do not believe that.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul here teaches that he would not have known what sin is, except for the law. He would not known what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Knowing the law made Paul accountable. He says he was "alive" without the law once, but when the commandment came (when he learned the law as he just said in vs. 7) sin revived and he died.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law (Rom 5:13). Until Paul knew the law no sin was imputed to him. But the moment he learned the law he became accountable and sin was imputed to him when he violated the law. This is when he spiritually died.

He thought learning the law would teach him how to merit eternal life, but sin used the law to kill him.

This is clear as a bell, Paul was not born dead in sin, he was spiritually alive until he learned the law. It was when he learned the law that he spiritually died.

There it is, believe it, or choose not to believe it. Your choice.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Well, if you think I will ever be a Calvinist you are in for a disappointment.

Yes it is. Calvinists insist God does not elect someone according to foreseen faith, it is written right into many of your creeds, so don't try to tell me different.

Like it has been explained to you....you are unable to read with comprehension....look at what you wrote...{bolded}
and here is what is held to;

Paragraph 2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,5 yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.6
5 Acts 15:18
6 Rom. 9:11,13,16,18


Proving what Biblicist has said, you cannot interact without lying about what we believe.....why is that???

Show where a real Calvinist says any of this anywhere.....you cannot.Yet you oppose truth 24/7.

 

[Winman]

Winman

Like it has been explained to you....you are unable to read with comprehension....look at what you wrote...{bolded}
and here is what is held to;

Paragraph 2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,5 yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.6
5 Acts 15:18
6 Rom. 9:11,13,16,18


Proving what Biblicist has said, you cannot interact without lying about what we believe.....why is that???

Show where a real Calvinist says any of this anywhere.....you cannot.Yet you oppose truth 24/7.

Wow, took me all of ten seconds to find where a Reformed site says election is not based on foreseen faith.

Election is not based on unforeseen faith or works, but it produces faith and works. (Rom. 9:11—16; 11:5, 6; Phil. 1:6; 1 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:840; Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 3:5; Rom. 12:3; Eph. 4:7; Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25.

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/reisinger/gwmwfwch05.htm

I hope you drive better than you study.

 

[Winman]

I believe that was a typo, and rather meant "foreseen faith". But just in case, here is another Reformed site that says election is not based on foreseen faith;

In other words, election was unconditional; i.e., not conditioned upon our foreseen faith, but based on God’s gracious will.

http://www.blogos.org/exploringtheword/TULIP-3a-Unconditional-Election.php

 

[Winman]

God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_election

 

[Winman]

Here's John Piper himself;

Unconditional election is God’s free choice before creation, not based on foreseen faith, to which traitors he will grant faith and repentance, pardoning them, and adopting them into his everlasting family of joy.

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/five-reasons-to-embrace-unconditional-election

 

[RLBosley]

Well, if you think I will ever be a Calvinist you are in for a disappointment.

Also similar to what I said.

Yes it is. Calvinists insist God does not elect someone according to foreseen faith, it is written right into many of your creeds, so don't try to tell me different.

You guys actually think you can tell God what he can or can't do. Amazing.

You're right that we say he does not elect according to foreseen faith. He does not. You keep bringing up possibilities but again the issue isn't about possibilities. In another creation if God so desired it, things could have been different perhaps. But he didn't and we have the world he made. So this issue is what has God done. We are not trying to tell God anything, I'm trying to explain to you what God has done. Unless you think you are God, in which case we have other serious issues.

We see, clearly, that God does not, and has not elected or predestined anyone on the basis of seeing their faith in the future.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. - Rom 8:29-30 NASB

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, - Eph 1:4-5, 11 NASB

No it doesn't. Why can't God choose to elect those he sees will believe? If he is sovereign, he can elect persons for any reason he chooses can't he?

Because no one, left to their own devices, will ever choose God. Thus the reason for unconditional election.

You couldn't regenerate yourself if you wanted to, but God has chosen to regenerate those persons who believe on his son Jesus. And why can't he do this?

You are the one saying you regenerate yourself. You claim the spiritually dead can choose how to respond to the voice of the Savior.

Those who choose to.

Who chooses to trust the Son?

Spiritually dead doesn't mean the same thing as physically dead. Can a dead man bury someone? Yet Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead.

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

No kidding. But it is a term used repeatedly for a purpose. What do you suppose that purpose is? Maybe, just maybe, it is a figure of speech to show that like the physically dead can't respond to physical stimuli, the spiritually dead can't respond to spiritual stimuli and are in need of being spiritually resurrected! Which makes sense when we look and see that first the Son of God makes the sinner spiritually alive on his own, without the sinner's consent or approval.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. - Jhn 5:21 NASB

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - Eph 2:5 NASB

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, - Col 2:13 NASB

Faith does not merit anything, it is not a work. Faith is always contrasted to works in the scriptures, always.

If that is the case, then why does the Father elect those who, according to you, will have faith? If it isn't meritorious then why choose them? Why care about their faith at all?

It is Calvinists that insist God could not elect someone according to foreseen faith. It is Calvinists that try to tell God what he can do and what he cannot do. Sounds like you guys are the ones trying to usurp God's sovereignty, he can do whatever he likes whether you like it or not.

Then you can't read. Honestly if you even remotely think that's what any Calvinist says (the bolded) then you simply cannot understand basic English.

I find it amusing that you say, "he can do whatever he likes whether you like it or not," when you clearly don't believe it. You refuse to believe that God is so powerful that he can and has and will save whomever he wishes based on his own choosing. You give lip service to God's sovereignty while demolishing it.

We believe because God has revealed the gospel to us. No man could believe if God had not done this, you cannot believe what you do not know.

Now you sound like a Calvinist! Get it together man! :laugh:

God reveals the gospel to the elect. They "behold the Son" according to John 6, upon being given to the Son by the Father.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how a person shall believe on Jesus unless they be regenerated? NOPE.

Does Paul ask how a person shall believe on Jesus unless they hear of him? YES.

So, what does that imply is necessary to believe? Please answer.

Hearing the gospel of course.

The gospel is proclaimed, and the Spirit of God uses the gospel call to bring the elect to salvation.

I don't understand why you think this is a problem for the monergist? You clearly have a faulty understanding of Calvinism.

Is that the only thing scripture says is necessary before one will believe? Nope:

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. ... "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. - Jhn 10:14-15, 26-28 NASB

According to Jesus, what prerequisite must be met for one to be able to believe?

God has accomplished exactly what he set out to do. Jesus is the Saviour of all men, but especially those that believe.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Jesus is the Saviour of all men, but especially those that believe. What does this mean? It means Jesus dying on the cross was sufficient to save any man, but it only effectually applies and profits those who believe on Jesus as God the Father has commanded. He will only save those who believe on Jesus, and this was his choice.

So the cross only made men savable, not saved. Got it.

 

[Winman]

Also similar to what I said.

You're right that we say he does not elect according to foreseen faith. He does not.

Where do you get that? Show me in the scriptures where it says God does not elect according to foreseen faith. I can show you evidence that God DOES elect according to foreseen faith.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Scripture right here says we were chosen "from the beginning" "through" (the means) the belief of the truth. That's foreseen faith right there.

You keep bringing up possibilities but again the issue isn't about possibilities. In another creation if God so desired it, things could have been different perhaps. But he didn't and we have the world he made. So this issue is what has God done. We are not trying to tell God anything, I'm trying to explain to you what God has done. Unless you think you are God, in which case we have other serious issues.

And God has chosen to save those that believe, and not save those who refuse to believe. It is you that is resisting God's will, not me.

We see, clearly, that God does not, and has not elected or predestined anyone on the basis of seeing their faith in the future.

I just showed you scripture that says we are chosen through belief in the truth.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. - Rom 8:29-30 NASB

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, - Eph 1:4-5, 11 NASB

Yes, he chose those he foresaw would believe, and predestined they would be conformed to the image of his Son. OK.

Because no one, left to their own devices, will ever choose God. Thus the reason for unconditional election.

That's a fallacy, you are assuming your view is correct. There is a kind of inability, and that is IGNORANCE. No man is born able to trust Jesus, because no man is born with this knowledge. Only because God sent prophets and preachers to tell us his words do we know of Jesus. This knowledge enables us to come to Jesus and trust him if we so choose.

You are the one saying you regenerate yourself. You claim the spiritually dead can choose how to respond to the voice of the Savior.

No man can regenerate himself, that is a supernatural power that only God has. But believing is an innate ability all men have, but you cannot believe what you do not know.

There is nothing supernatural about believing or trusting someone. When you let a surgeon put you to sleep and operate on you, you are believing or trusting him to heal you, nothing supernatural about that.

When you come to Jesus in your heart and cry out to him to save you, there is nothing supernatural about that. What is supernatural is that Jesus can hear your cry, and he can regenerate you that very moment by forgiving you all your sins and sealing you with the Holy Spirit.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was there anything supernatural about the publican crying out for mercy to God? NO. What was supernatural was that God heard him and granted his prayer. God did show him mercy and forgave all his sins. God's part is supernatural.

God does not require what is impossible for us. We don't have to do the supernatural to be saved. We just need to believe his words and commit ourselves to him, he will do the supernatural part.

Who chooses to trust the Son?

Those that hear God's word and believe it.

No kidding. But it is a term used repeatedly for a purpose. What do you suppose that purpose is? Maybe, just maybe, it is a figure of speech to show that like the physically dead can't respond to physical stimuli, the spiritually dead can't respond to spiritual stimuli and are in need of being spiritually resurrected! Which makes sense when we look and see that first the Son of God makes the sinner spiritually alive on his own, without the sinner's consent or approval.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. - Jhn 5:21 NASB

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - Eph 2:5 NASB

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, - Col 2:13 NASB

Dead means "condemned" or sentenced to death. We are just like a man who is locked away on death row, awaiting execution.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The moment you sin you are condemned. You are locked up, awaiting final execution. There is no escape, no way for you to get out but Jesus. If you call on Jesus he will come and unlock the cell door and let you go free.

Psa 109:19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

You see, there is nothing supernatural about a prisoner groaning in his cell. What is supernatural is that God looked down and saw us, and he could hear our groaning from heaven, and he came down and opened the cell door, setting us free.

If that is the case, then why does the Father elect those who, according to you, will have faith? If it isn't meritorious then why choose them? Why care about their faith at all?

No, faith is not a good work. You could be a compulsive liar, a thief, and a serial killer, but you could believe your mother's promise to come visit you in prison. You believe her because she is good, not that you are good. You believe her because she is trustworthy, not that you are trustworthy.

You are looking in the wrong direction. God said, "Look to me"

Then you can't read. Honestly if you even remotely think that's what any Calvinist says then you simply cannot understand basic English.

But Calvinists do insist God does not elect according to foreseen faith, I showed a quote by John Piper himself.

I find it amusing that you say, "he can do whatever he likes whether you like it or not," when you clearly don't believe it. You refuse to believe that God is so powerful that he can and has and will save whomever he wishes based on his own choosing. You give lip service to God's sovereignty while demolishing it.

God must be true to his own character, he must be just. God cannot lie, or steal, etc...

The only solution for sin was for God to send his son Jesus to die for us, and that if we would believe on him as he believed on his Father, then justification unto life is imputed us. (Romans 5:18-19)

Now you sound like a Calvinist! Get it together man! :laugh

God reveals the gospel to the elect. They "behold the Son" according to John 6, upon being given to the Son by the Father.

No, the grace that brings salvation has been revealed to all men, but some men will refuse to open their eyes and see it.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hearing the gospel of course.

The gospel is proclaimed, and the Spirit of God uses the gospel call to bring the elect to salvation.

I don't understand why you think this is a problem for the monergist? You clearly have a faulty understanding of Calvinism.

I agree that the Spirit calls, but he calls all men.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

If you want the water of life you can have it. Just come to Jesus and ask him for it like he told the Samaritan woman at the well.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water

Just ask.

So the cross only made men savable, not saved. Got it.

You have to believe, that is God's rule. If you do not believe you will die in your sins.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

God made the rules, not me.

 

[RLBosley]

Pt 1

This got too big. I had to break it up into two.

Where do you get that? Show me in the scriptures where it says God does not elect according to foreseen faith. I can show you evidence that God DOES elect according to foreseen faith.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Scripture right here says we were chosen "from the beginning" "through" (the means) the belief of the truth. That's foreseen faith right there.

No it isn't. You do not understand what is being said here. I don't know if you have reading comprehension problems or if the KJV English trips you up or what, but this is again a simple grammar issue.

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. - 2Th 2:13 NASB

From the beginning, hearkening back to the language of Gen 1:1, since before creation, "God has chosen you" to/for salvation. This salvation is accomplished by being sanctified by the Spirit and having faith in the truth. The believer is chosen for salvation, and the means (Not the basis!) of that salvation is sanctification by the Spirit and belief of the truth. We see here a clear picture of God's election of individuals, the spirit regenerating (sanctifying) them and the sinner having faith, all culminating in the predestined salvation of the individual. This has absolutely nothing to do with foreseen faith. Not even close.

And God has chosen to save those that believe, and not save those who refuse to believe. It is you that is resisting God's will, not me.

Yes God has chosen to save those who believe. How many times must i say it? THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. Calvinists and Arminians both believe God saves those who believe, so that clearly isn't the issue. The issue is ultimately how does one come to have this belief. Because they conjure it up in themselves, or because God opens their hearts and minds to receive the gospel?

Why can't you focus on the issue instead of running off the rails into whatever nonsense you are trying to accuse the Calvinists of?

I just showed you scripture that says we are chosen through belief in the truth.

Nope.

Yes, he chose those he foresaw would believe, and predestined they would be conformed to the image of his Son. OK.

That turns those texts on their heads! It doesn't say that he foresees faith, nor does it say the predestination is only to being conformed to Christ!

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. - Rom 8:29-30 NASB

In Romans 8, God is the only one acting: God foreknows. God predestines. God calls. God justifies. God glorifies. It is all the work of God, and the foreknowing and predestination, infallibly result in glorification.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, - Eph 1:4-5, 11 NASB

You mangle Eph 1 as well. God chose us in Christ from before the foundation of the world. In other words God's choosing of us was not based on our ability or actions but based on Christ's identification with us. For what purpose? That we would be holy and blameless, that is, that we would be justified. He chose us so that we would be saved. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as sons. Adoption is a major aspect and consequence of salvation, so God loved us and chose to save us and bring us into his family, through Christ; why? According to the kind intention of HIS WILL. We receive an inheritance, not based of of our effort or faith but why? Because we were predestined according to His purpose. God is the one who freely chooses, not us.

If what you say is true, then God makes no real choice at all! God's will is constrained by the creature and he is obligated to grant salvation to those who will believe. This is 100% contradictory to the scriptures.

That's a fallacy, you are assuming your view is correct. There is a kind of inability, and that is IGNORANCE. No man is born able to trust Jesus, because no man is born with this knowledge. Only because God sent prophets and preachers to tell us his words do we know of Jesus. This knowledge enables us to come to Jesus and trust him if we so choose.

So all man needs is more knowledge? Then why do so many who grow up hearing the gospel all their lives turn away from the faith, repudiating the Lord? If it is only a matter of us choosing then this shouldn't happen. After all, who doesn't want to go to Heaven? Everyone wants to go to Heaven, they just don't want God to be there.

So really the fundamental problem is not that people don't have knowledge, in fact they even reject the knowledge that they do have, instead the issue is that all people from birth are children of wrath and enemies of God.

No man can regenerate himself, that is a supernatural power that only God has. But believing is an innate ability all men have, but you cannot believe what you do not know.

There is nothing supernatural about believing or trusting someone. When you let a surgeon put you to sleep and operate on you, you are believing or trusting him to heal you, nothing supernatural about that.

When you come to Jesus in your heart and cry out to him to save you, there is nothing supernatural about that. What is supernatural is that Jesus can hear your cry, and he can regenerate you that very moment by forgiving you all your sins and sealing you with the Holy Spirit.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was there anything supernatural about the publican crying out for mercy to God? NO. What was supernatural was that God heard him and granted his prayer. God did show him mercy and forgave all his sins. God's part is supernatural.

God does not require what is impossible for us. We don't have to do the supernatural to be saved. We just need to believe his words and commit ourselves to him, he will do the supernatural part.

Belief in God is a good thing, yes? It is something that pleases God, correct? Then how can the unregenerate exercise faith when scripture says "those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom 8:8)

Why is belief spoken of as, not only our obligation, but also a gift from God?

Those that hear God's word and believe it.

What is the basis for their belief. In other words, how did they come to believe?

Dead means "condemned" or sentenced to death. We are just like a man who is locked away on death row, awaiting execution.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The moment you sin you are condemned. You are locked up, awaiting final execution. There is no escape, no way for you to get out but Jesus. If you call on Jesus he will come and unlock the cell door and let you go free.

Psa 109:19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

You see, there is nothing supernatural about a prisoner groaning in his cell. What is supernatural is that God looked down and saw us, and he could hear our groaning from heaven, and he came down and opened the cell door, setting us free.

No, dead means dead. Spiritual or physical, but dead equals lifeless. Not merely condemned, though yes the wicked are condemned already (something your view on the sin nature cannot account for). Your misunderstanding cannot fully appreciate what the scripture means when it is said that Christ gives life and we have been made alive.

BTW, the passage you reference is Psalm 102, not 109, and is referring to physical death not spiritual.