Featured On a South Sea Island.....

What a great harm we do to the world of those who have never heard when we take the gospel to them. They would be better off left alone and just pray that they do the best they can with what they know.

 

No, I understand what you are saying. But I've asked you direct questions several times. and you avoid them. And I've given you Scripture several times, and you don't interact with the Scripture.

Even here you are not interacting with John 14:6, but passing it by. Jesus said this almost 2000 years ago. Now will you please answer a direct question and interact with Scripture? When Jesus said almost 2000 years ago that He is the way (with a definite article, the only way) no one comes to the Father if not through Him, do you then say that statement is not valid for everyone since then, or are there people saved without Christ in this age since Christ?

Let's look at that passage. Romans 2:12 says those who sin without law will perish without law. That word is the Greek appolumi, which means destruction. Since all who do not have Jewish law sin without it, all without Jewish law will be destroyed in Hell.

Now, those who live by the law of their own heart (2:16) are not saved by the law of their own heart. There is not Scripture that says they are, so you have not given any. There is only one way to salvation from the cross until now, and that is faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have witnessed to such people hundreds of times. Without fail they sin according to their own law. They are wicked people, believe me, and will go to Hell in their sins unless they repent, something they cannot do without the Holy Spirit's work (John 16:8-11, which you ignored). There is no excuse for such people because they have the law in their hearts--they are "without excuse" because of that law, even if they never heard of Christ (Rom. 1:20, which you have not explained by your theory).

There are much clearer verses on this than John 3:16, such as Ezek. 33:11--"As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Again, Ezek. 18:32--"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Note that God's wish is for all wicked people to repent. But they cannot repent without Jesus Christ. They don't repent simply because they cannot and don't even want to. I've talked to many, many heathen, and they are happy and set in their wicked ways.

No, I'm not saying that. God said it. This is the doctrine I have most trouble with in the Bible, but it is as clear as clear can be: those without the law and with the law who do not believe in Jesus will perish eternally in Hell, even though it saddens God.

If I didn't believe that Japanese would die and go to Hell without Christ, I would never have spent 33 years of my life as a missionary to them. And believe me, they do not repent without the work of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel of Christ. It is flat out impossible for them to do so, and it is naivety to the extreme to believe that they could do so. They are wicked, wicked people. I could tell you things about Japan and the Japanese that would have to be censored, they are so wicked.

But I have told you of a pygmy in Africa who sought God and so God sent a missionary, but you ignored that story--didn't even comment. Yet it was a real life story, not a "what if." Again, Dr. Cassidy just told a story of a village who waited for a missionary and God sent one. Anywhere in the world someone seeks God, He will send a missionary. But He will not save them if they don't believe in Christ.

Better luck next time.

 

That's exactly the logical conclusion of what RD2 is saying!

 

You hit the nail squarely on the head with that one, Dr.

AMEN! RD2, are you paying attention? This is a real life story, it's history not hypothetical.

 

Found it! And just ordered it! Thanks brother!

http://www.amazon.com/Eternity-Their-Hearts-Startling-Throughout/product-reviews/0830709258

 

No, you are wrong. Drawing is always to completion in the New Testament. It is saving union with Christ. Every individual who is drawn comes to Christ. Every single one.

You're not using the word draw in the biblical sense. It is not a mere passing attraction that might be dismissed later on.

 

the blood of Christ may have been shed, HERE IN TIME, over 2000 years ago, but Scripture specifically states it was also shed back in eternity past unless it was a bloodless lamb slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world.
How hard is it to understand that this trust of God in His Son makes, to Him, the timely sacrifice at the cross a done deal BEFORE it occurred and this is the basis why He is able to take Enoch home to Him, and Elijah, too ?
:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

 

I agree with you that this is the most difficult question in Christianity. I also agree with you that Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That said, there are a few verses that seem to imply those who never heard of the gospel will be treated with leniency.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus said the servant who did not know his lord's will, yet did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. I am not sure what this means, perhaps they will not be punished so severely? Or perhaps they will not be punished as long?

I don't want to speculate and be found in error, but the scriptures do seem to suggest God will be lenient on those who have not heard. A similar statement was made by Paul;

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul had just told the Athenians they were too superstitious, and that he had observed an altar dedicated to the UNKNOWN GOD.

What I find shocking is that Paul seemed to imply that this unknown god whom they worshiped was the true God.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Now, this verse opens a whole can of worms, if I am interpreting this properly, Paul said they were worshiping the true God, even though they were ignorant of it.

And if the Athenians were doing this, isn't it also possible that other men have worshiped the true God in ignorance as well?

But one thing is certain, Paul said now all men everywhere are commanded to repent and trust Jesus. So, it is our duty to tell men of Jesus.

 

Helkuo
to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

It's only used eight times in the NT:

No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. Jn 6:44

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. Jn 12:32

Simon Peter therefore having a sword drew it, and struck the high priest`s servant, and cut off his right ear. Now the servant`s name was Malchus. Jn 18:10

6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
11 Simon Peter therefore went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, the net was not rent. Jn 21

But when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they laid hold on Paul and Silas, and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers, Acts 16:19
And all the city was moved, and the people ran together; and they laid hold on Paul, and dragged him out of the temple: and straightway the doors were shut. Acts 21:30

But ye have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you, and themselves drag you before the judgment-seats? Ja 2:6

The correct concept of 'biblical drawing' is just as offensive to hoi polloi now as it was then:

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jn 6

And 'all men', it simply means 'some of all types' from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, not only from the Jews. "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring".

 

No offense, but you're eisegeting.

The Greek word is helkuo, and it occurs 8 times in the NT. It doesn't have any fancy meaning. It just means pull, such as when you draw a sword (John 18:10) or pull on a net (John 21:6 & 11). In fact, in John 21:6 the drawing of the net fails and they could not complete the act. The only way you can get helkuo to mean effectually draw is to make it perfect tense, and it is not that in the passages in question.

 

If one denies the truth of Original Sin, and/or holds due to that, then would ds that Jesus died for all sinners, and also holds to Unversalism due to that, it would be far better to leave them alone, as they would be already reconciled back, and hearing/rejecting jesus would undo that!

 

You are a fine representative of Calvinism, oh, if they all had your powerful and logical mind!

Disagreeing with Original Sin only exempts babies and very little children from being liable for sin. It has nothing to do with persons who understand right from wrong. So, failing to teach the gospel to an adult on an isolated island does not give him an excuse for sin, he has the law written on his heart which makes him accountable.

And I don't know what you mean by universalism, perhaps you meant unlimited atonement? Lots of folks believe Jesus died for all men, more than who believe in limited atonement.

If you do not believe in unlimited atonement, then you do not know if Jesus died for you, and you cannot possibly know you are elect.

But why do I need to tell that to you with your powerful intellect?

You keep on posting, you are a credit to Calvinism.

 

First of all, this is a parable, an extended metaphor. Parables are not to be used to determine doctrine but to illustrate truth, Christ's sermon illustration if you will.

Secondly to interpret a parable we must find the central meaning intended by Christ. In this case it is obviously about a servant and master, i. e., a Christian and the Lord. At any rate, there is nothing whatsoever about salvation in the parable.

What is important in this passage is the kind of worship they were doing. Yes, Paul deliberately equated their "unknown God" with the true God. However, there are several Greek words for worship used in the NT, and in this case it is a rare one only used here and in 1 Tim. 5:4, eusebeo, meaning to show respect rather than to serve or to bow down physically. So the Greeks were simply showing respect just in case they missed a god, not really serving the true God.

As for v. 30, I believe what God "winked at" according to the context was the abominable sin of idol worship, and then only in the Gentile nations such as Greece. And all are to repent of that sin in particular. The fact that God did not punish such sins in the Gentile nations does not mean that Gentiles could be saved without the truth.

Amen and amen!

 

Not true

I do not like people putting words in my mouth.

You know that I am speaking about people who existed prior to the Cross of Jesus, and not those today. When a missionary comes across people who have lived for maybe thousands of years on their own understanding of a creator and the need to live morally and civilly with each other .... and they hear the Word of God, their moral standard begins to clearly see that while they had the right idea, the message of the cross is what was missing. This is why we see missionaries go into cultures around our world and see massive revivals breakout! It is because they have finally heard the truth and seen how the truth is what they were missing all those thousands of years.

And you know what I am talking about, because all the work, you do in Japan is that of correcting the false interpretations of their false religions and helping them to come into the light.

Converting people that adhere to a strong moral standard is much easier than sharing the Gospel with peoples caught up in evil religions, like witchcraft, demonism, etc., because now you are no longer fighting ignorance, but the demon possessed and demonized religious practices. Those who practice voodoo, for instance, are going to be a tough sell on Jesus.

What will happen to these religions and people, they will be judged for rejecting the cross, and staying with their false religions like Paul speaks about in Romans 1:16-32.

As for C4K's comment - "What a great harm we do to the world of those who have never heard when we take the gospel to them. They would be better off left alone and just pray that they do the best they can with what they know."

Nothing can be further from the truth! For taking the Gospel to these people is taking the light into their darkness, and helping them to come out of the dark and into the light. Those who reject the truth once it is presented, will then be judged for their sin as well as rejecting the very laws and grace that will serve as their judge and evidence.

Prior to the Gospel being taken to these people, those who lived and died [again before the word came] will be judged for their sin, the fact that God gave them an inherent understanding and sense of sin, and their inability to develop a system of right and wrong, and in their pre-Law, pre-Gospel state of mind and heart, a form of worshiping the creator and His works from within and how they see that which is around them.

The truth is what they developed as a form of creator, is probably going to be an idol of some kind, along with rules that surround following the idols they erect in place of the true God, IS SIN and IDOL WORSHIP .... and God will judge them for this, the same as He will judge those of us who have wroshipped and followed Him but also wrongly interrepted things and applied them.

Still, we are following the true God of this universe, and once people are confronted with the true God of this universe; they have a choice to reject this new-found truth, or REPENT and follow the God of the cross.

I keep saying that what I am eluding to be people and peoples which lived and existed prior to the blood ever being shed, and prior to the laws of the OT being taken to them!

For those, from the time of Adam forward, who didn't know the Laws of Jehovah or the Gospel of Grace, once they heard the truth, they then came under judgement for what they did or didn't do with that new-found truth.

Even so, and I mean "But." Before in the history of their civilization, they were judged according to what Paul eluded to as the inherent, innate, understanding of their creator, and how they lived his or her life. It was definitely a form of work's salvation, even though salvation was not yet a word in play.

In a way, the Jews practiced a work's salvation that included the need for a sacrifice, not much different from the primitive religions of the world before the true and ONLY Gospel was introduced to them!

I do not know what is so hard to believe with what I am saying, but not all people, at one time in their live on this planet, had the blessing of the Gospel. So they lived as best they could according to the moral standard God gave us all! Sure these folks will be judged, but their judgement will be based upon the moral standard of right and wrong, what they did right and wrong, and the same SIN we will be judged on!

In no way am I discounting the Gospel. Nevertheless, early on the church was small, and it started out in a part of the world, far from many established civilizations. And until that Gospel, message came to these people, they were, in fact, judged under a different standard!

JOHN - you said, "Note that God's wish is for all wicked people to repent. However, they cannot repent without Jesus Christ." And I agree whole heartedly. But my question to you is simple...what standard will God judge all those who lived and died before Jesus died for them on the cross?

I believe Paul is spot on in Romans 1:20-23 and 2:12-16. There had to be an innate, inherent sense of right and wrong in mankind, and it is that sense of right and wrong that we implore when we share the Gospel, and it is the that innate, inherent sense within mankind that draws them to the message of the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is also that inherent moral standard the cause many to reject the word, or to reject the religions. PRIOR to the true Gospel being introduced to them.

There have always been evil hearts, fence sitting hearts, and those ready to believe. Then among those ready to believe, like the Word says, some hearts are fertile; some are like ground with tares ready to choke out the Gospel, and others are ground upon which birds gobble up the seed of the gospel, and they never make it!

We know the path is narrow, and the road to hell is wide. But what I seem to believe, and you don't is that God never desired that anyone die in sin, so before He sent His Son, and in special cases, even after, He had a provisional way to get people to recognize they were sinful; develop a form of religion that helped them atone for that innate sense of sin, and those people will be judged according to how they dealt with sin, before they knew about the Gospel [and passed], and that comes back to their inherent sense of right and wrong and how they applied that knowledge while living with others in their society!

Just like the few who will travel the Narrow Path, likewise, those allowed into heaven per the moral standard will be minuscule in proportion to those who go to hell! Even so, God will never be blamed or accused of not giving these people a chance to choose, even though it had nothing to do with the laws or the Gospel.

Please quit trying to put words in my mouth, guys! I do not differ from you when it comes to the need for mankind to come to the Father through the Son. I do not believe a man can come to the Father through good works or deeds. One must be born again!

BUT, for the last time! What is God doing with little children, and those people who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, as our generation has? God has established within all of us the ability to know right from wrong! And in the more primative cultures, thousands and thousands of years ago .... people had to fend for themselves, and they did the best the could with what they knew, and what they knew came from that inherent innate standard or right and wrong, and YES, in some cases these primative folks developed religions that in comparision to Christianity, was based upon and around idols and sacrifice, sometimes human in forn, in an attempt to appease the creator they all sensed from withing and without. Sure they were crude, and by our standards, evil and ritualistic, but it was the best they could do with what they knew.

Let me ask one closing question. How could a tribe, on the American continent, that lived 5,000 years ago, appease Jehovah, if in fact they knew nothing of Jehovah? So, what did they do in order to get approval from the creator who they knew gave them all they saw, touched tasted and knew? They built a religion, as primative as it was, to worship that god and offer sacrifices to atone for their sense of wrong doing and sin. Sin that was pronounced upon the fromt heir inner failings and from the laws developed by their sociiety. Laws deemed to be acceptable, moral and even holy. Laws that served to help them live in a way that appeased their cultures understanding of right and wrong? :type:

 

OK, so you believe this is only speaking of saved persons? I can see that. A Christian who does not do what he knows to do will be punished severely, a Christian who does not know, less severely. I can go along with that.

Well, this story kind of reminded me of the story someone told earlier of the missionaries running into the old man who had been praying to the Sky Spirit all his life. Sounds like he was a sincere man who wanted to know the truth, and so God heard him, even if his concept of God was off base. God sent true missionaries to him, so that he and all his people could be saved. Praise God!

 

As long as it is just "one" last closing question.

5,000 years ago would put us at 3,000 B.C.
According to Ussher's Chronology the world was created ca. 4000 B.C.
The Exodus took place in 1440 B.C.
Abraham lived 2160 B.C.

In the time of Abraham, not too long after the Flood, it is unlikely that there would have been anyone in America. Thus there would be no tribe to be concerned about to appease Jehovah. They just weren't there. That particular time must have been just after the Flood when the population was very small. In fact Scofield, who uses Ussher's chronolgy puts creation at 4004 B.C. and the Flood at 2354 B.C. The dividing of the continents was after that. America didn't even exist.

We need to start from the beginning of history. Use reality. What does a man know, and what has he rejected and why. No man lives in a vacuum.

 

I did not put words in your mouth. I simply agreed with C4K, another missionary, that what you appeared to be saying would logically lead to that conclusion. You may not have seen the logical conclusion, therefore you would not have said it.

No I do NOT know that. The OP was about someone living today. I tried several times to get you to clarify and you would not. I asked you direct questions and you would not answer them.

C4K's comment was based on what he and I both were getting from your posts--that you believe someone today in 2014 can be saved without the Gospel, which was the OP. If two missionaries thought the exact same thing about your position, but mistook it, seems like you failed to communicate correctly.

If you don't believe that someone in 2014 can be saved without Christ, why did you not say so when I asked? And will you now deny that is what you meant? I'll ask again: Do you believe that someone in 2014 can be saved without the Gospel of Christ? Yes or no? (Simple question, simple answer.) Don't fudge, just say yes or no.

How are we supposed to know you meant this? It is not answering the OP.

AND AGAIN, you seem to be saying that someone in this era can be saved without the Gospel. You fudge and you do what in Japanese we call "speaking around"--meaning you don't answer but give some roundabout statement.

According to this final statement, C4K is spot on--you believe people can be saved without the Gospel. Therefore, the logical conclusion which all evangelical missionaries come to when we hear this kind of argument (and we hear it a lot) is that when a missionary goes to a primitive people (who can be saved without knowing Christ), we condemn them. That is not putting words in your mouth. It is logically extrapolating from what you said.

 

Amen and amen! God's Holy Spirit is at work in hearts all over the world.

 

People who have never heard the gospel can be so sweet, we had a missionary from China come to our church several years ago and told some very interesting stories. One was about a man he led to Jesus, and this man asked him if he could personally meet Jesus. He believed Jesus had risen from the dead and was alive, and now he wanted him and his wife to meet Jesus!

Now that is faith.

 

But this multitude that knoweth not the gospel are accursed. Jn 7:49