Featured Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

There are such things as metaphors and figures of speech which you ignore.
Do you also call Christ a schizophrenic because at the same time He calls himself a "door" and a "vine."
Or, perhaps he has multiple personalities seeing he is a: door, vine, shepherd, bread, manna from heaven, everlasting water, light of the world, way, truth, life, and so much more.
Is he both schizophrenic and one with multiple personalities? Is that how you interpret the Bible?

That is what you are doing in Romans 6.
We are dead, as in a figure, in a metaphor. You are obviously very much alive for you are sitting at a key board typing in these posts, correct? You are not dead.

Paul continues to develop his theme. He then speaks of baptism which symbolizes how our old life is dead to sin and our new life is risen with Christ. Again, it is a picture.
He then makes the application.
Verse 11: You are not dead, but to reckon yourself to be dead. Consider, count, think of yourself as one who is dead. That takes action on our part.
Keep on reading.
Then you must yield your members of instruments of righteousness...
That takes work on your part.
They are not to be yielded (by the old man) as instruments of unrighteousness... are then?

Put off the old man; put on the new man. (He is still there; still occupying that body.)
I die daily. Why?
Take up your cross every day? Crucify the flesh every day. Crucify the old man. It must be done on a daily basis.
If the old man wasn't there or if it was eradicated, you would be perfect and sinless like Christ, but that is not the case is it?

 

Ephesians 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins, in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others, and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us, even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast; for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk. Wherefore, remember, that ye [were] once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world; and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ, for he is our peace, who did make both one, and the middle wall of the enclosure did break down, the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace, and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it, and having come, he did proclaim good news -- peace to you -- the far-off and the nigh, because through him we have the access -- we both -- in one Spirit unto the Father. Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-[stone], in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy sanctuary in the Lord, in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit."

We are a new creature, a new creation in Christ Jesus. There's no "two natures", fighting like two rabid dogs. As Brother Herald(Reformed) stated, the battle ground is within the mind, therefore, we have to have a renewing of the mind.

But we're not schizophrenic.....

 

The word "dead" here means separated. In our unsaved state we are eternally separated from God. Most often death means separation. Before salvation the person is not a corpse, not even lifeless. He is separated from God and needs reconciliation.
God has given us the ministry of reconciliation. He has made us ambassadors. "Therefore be ye reconciled to God." That is our message. (2Cor.5:19-21).

The mind has to be continually renewed because it is continually defiled. It is defiled by what the old nature wants and desires. It is that old nature that has to be crucified on a daily basis.

A conclusion that needs no answer. No one suggested you were.
However, this is one of the first times I am hearing this doctrine from Baptists and it amazes me. I have heard it from Charismatics, the Church of God, the Holiness movement, etc., but not from Baptists, and especially not from Calvinist. It is a position that denies the depravity of man.
Some years ago I met a woman that I was attempting to witness to. When I tried to talk to her about sin, she said she hadn't sinned in over 17 years. She belonged to the Church of God. I can understand why she would not believe in having an old nature or the old nature being eradicated.
Most Baptists know of their failures, their sinfulness, and how far short they fall in the presence of the holiness of God. The reason for that is our fallen nature, that old man that is still a part of us and will be until we leave this earthly body.

Put off the old man; put on the new man. Do it daily.
Take up your cross daily and follow me.

How are these commands carried out on a daily basis if the old man is already dead?

 

It is not a false charge. There are many metaphors and figures of speech in the Bible that you ignore and therefore have misinterpreted. Why would you take this as a false charge. It is an observation.

I see your question mark. That means you can't answer my post.
Your default position is: "strawman ..." That is the petty ad hominem that you resort to when you cannot answer what is posted. Sad.

Another rude: I am not even going to bother to attempt to answer it (probably because I can't), right?

I said nothing about a zombie--ever! That was your old nature that just wrote that! Or do you put false accusations on the shoulders of God and blame him (the new nature given by the Holy Spirit).
It appears your old nature is alive and well.

Every Christian is, they just don't always act like it. They act like their old nature wants them to.

That is not true. That would nullify scripture such as 1John 1:9.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful..." Obviously sin has power over you, and you do sin. Thus there is the command to repent and confess your sin, that you might come back in fellowship with God. There are times when sin reigns over you. If you don't admit that it is pride that prevents you from admitting it, and of course that is a great sin in and of itself.

Therefore it is not dead yet.
Romans 6:11 is a command. It is not in the past tense. It is something that you must do every day. Reckon your old nature to be dead every day.

I posted this for you before; I will do it again:

(KJV) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(CEV) In the same way, you must think of yourselves as dead to the power of sin. But Christ Jesus has given life to you, and you live for God.

(EMTV) Likewise you also, consider yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(ESV) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

(Geneva) Likewise thinke ye also, that ye are dead to sin, but are aliue to God in Iesus Christ our Lord.

(ISV) In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but living for God through the Messiah Jesus.

There is no past tense here. Continually consider yourself dead as far as sin is concerned.
Consider why "sin" is in the singular. Which sin is speaking of? It doesn't say sins. The reason? It is referring to the "sin nature." Every day you must continually consider yourself dead to your own sin nature. It is always there. Act as if it is dead. Ignore it. Yield yourself to Christ instead. That is the teaching of the verse and expounded on in the rest of the chapter.

 

Do you realize that the entire preceding context is speaking about the LEGAL POSITION - dead "in Christ" LEGALLY and POSITIONALLY not personally?

Do you realize that verse 7 and the word "freed" is the same Greek term that Paul has been using consistently from Romans 3:24 right up to chapter six that is translated consistently "justified"? Hence, the context sandwiches verse 6 in a JUDICIAL CONTEXT or LEGAL DEATH.

Moreover, note the word that introduces verse 7 - "for" which means he is making an additional argument and it is about their JUDICIAL/LEGAL position "in Christ" not the condition of their person:

For he that is dead is freed from sin - Rom. 6:7

This is the conclusion he is drawing from verse 4-6. They are "dead" only in a JUDICIAL sense and justification is the freedom from the law, and thus freedom from sin judicially (Rom. 7:1-5).

We are not "dead" to sin in regard to OUR OWN PERSON or else he would not immediately go on to exhort them "let us" "resist" (vv. 11-13).

If immediate context is the final judge of what "dead" means then it is JUDICAL/LEGAL/POSITIONAL death that Paul is obviously referring to, as you don't go on to exhort them to "resist" and "let not sin reign over you" when they are PERSONALLY "dead" to sin!!!!! I think you need to rethink your position and especially your interpretation of this passage.

 

The gospel presents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:4-5) as the basis for faith, which in turn is the basis for justification - OUR LEGAL POSITION IN CHRIST.

Water baptism also publically identifies us with that same LEGAL POSITION IN CHRIST - 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 6:7 as in water baptism we "put on" Christ publicly as a legal heir would put on a white toga to DECLARE his legal age had come to be heir (Gal. 3:27).

We are "Justified" from sin - Romans 6:7 or "freed" legally from sin, however, the resurrection life obtained in regeneration imparts to our person (the born again spirit) what justification imputes to our position.

In Romans 6:8-11 Paul is arguing that BY FAITH ("reckon") we are to put on our LEGAL POSITION in justification (Rom.3:24-5:21) through the resurrection power of the indwelling Spirit, both of which are identified with both in public water baptism. Hence, our water baptism openly and publicly declares there is no such thing as a justified man who is not also a regenerated man, and that combination provides no excuse to "continue in sin." However, we are not "dead to sin" or "freed from sin" in our own person without resurrection power being personally applied by faith "reckoned" and so we are exhorted to do that.

 

When you respond to contextual data that opposes your position by making simple assertions without contextual based responses, you are doing the very same thing the opponents of the doctrines of grace do in their responses.

The contextual evidence condemns your assertions and just making more assertions does not justify your assertions.

 

We are those who have been born again, have a new nature and the indwelling of the holy Spirit, but we are still in the flesh, in this Body that has been warped/marred by sin, and that full deliverence awaits us getting glorified forms!

We will all struggle with desires/temptations until that time, or have we reached sinless perfection state then?

 

Again false. This is your old man causing you to say this. Does the new man cause you to misrepresent others, which is sin. Again, do you blame sin on the Holy Spirit attributing sin to God? Is this another denial of the depravity of man?
Why are you unable to answer those questions?
You see, I never said anything about the old man "moving around." Those are your words, not mine.

Did what again? Tell the truth?

Reckon is a command. It is something that you do.
Here is what A.T. Robertson says:

Now, doesn't that make sense.
You must live up to the ideal of the baptized life. You do it.

The verse is a command. It is not make believe. Paul does not pretend. He gives active commands.
This translation is much easier for you to understand:
(ISV) In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but living for God through the Messiah Jesus.
--It is a command to be carried out on a continual basis.
You think it cannot be done because of a misinterpretation of scripture, a biased error. The old man still exists, contrary to what you believe, and therefore must be put to dead on a daily basis.
--Take up your cross daily.
"I die daily."
These verses are meaningless to you, and you can't explain them.

You can't even explain through scripture any biblical concept of "spirit baptism." You don't know if there is any valid difference between: baptism of the Spirit, baptism in the Spirit, baptism with the Spirit, etc. You really don't know what you are talking about. Take any old phrase and loosely use it. You never have defined this mystical term "spirit baptism."

Did you ever receive baptism by water, Icon? Did you get wet?
The baptism was symbolic. Can you deny that it wasn't?
Did it have some regenerative effect on you? Is that the time you were saved? Did the Holy Spirit descend on you at that time? Did he come as a dove or as a flame of fire? What effect are you talking about?
Are you perfect and sinless, Icon? When you do sin, are you not then carnal? We sin out of our carnal flesh, and that makes you a carnal Christian up until the time you repent which who knows may be how long?? It is all relative in your books isn't it? Is there a difference between one year, one month, one day, one hour? Sin is sin.

It is not a past completed action. It is a command. Read the scripture properly:

(ISV) In the same way, you too must continually consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but living for God through the Messiah Jesus.
Even in the KJV it is written as a command. A command is never written as a past completed action. It is a present continuous action that you must keep on doing. You are just plain wrong.

 

Unbelievers breathe. They walk around. They go to work. They shop. They play sports. They look very much alive. But they are accurately described as "dead."

So how do they move?

Because the flesh lives, despite being spiritually dead, which is what the word nekros denotes in Romans 6:11, which defines what Paul meant in Romans 6:6, which you cling to, Icon, without continuing on through the passage.

Our bodies were not crucified with Christ. Our sin nature, the "old man" which continues to live in the flesh which gave him birth, still breathes. What was crucified was the "old self," the corruption of Adam, which relationship is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:45-49, the first man having become a living soul and the Last Man having become a Life-Giving Spirit. We bear the image of both, the latter imposed over the former once we believe in Christ.

The Zodhiates definition of the Greek nekros makes it clear, being dead to sin does not mean that sin cannot continue to have power in us. When we give it power, it lives. When we allow the Spirit to stand between us and the "dead man walking" that we otherwise represent, it cannot live, it cannot have power or hold sway over us.

Habitual sin is real in the Christian, and is not an indication of not being regenerated. It is an indication of choices made to let the "dead man walk."

 

Another unfounded unproven assertion

Straw man argument as no one says it does.

These are simply more unfounded, unproven assertions. The baptisms in question are "immersions" - all of them. Immersion in sufferings is to be overwhelmed in sufferings. Here it is used metaphorically and it is quite obvious it is used metaphorically.

You simply assert, no evidence, no proof, nothing but assertion.

Don't you understand the very words you are quoting??? If we must "reckon" ourself a "corpse" it means we are not a "corpse" or there would be no need to "reckon" it so. If this reckoning has to do with sin, then equally we are not literally dead to sin either but also must "reckon" it so. He is obviously not speaking about any reality in regard to our own person or actual condition of our person but rather as verse 7 clearly and indisputably proves he is speaking about OUR POSITION in Christ by justification. We are POSITIONALLY dead, a truth we received by faith in the gospel as the gospel declares Christ died "for" us rather than we died "in him." Do you realize the difference between the preposition "for" versus "in"??? You are attempting to make this passage mean "IN" him while the text actually says "FOR" or "IN BEHALF OF" and that is a huge difference between justification and the work of regeneration. In regeneration we are brought into spiritual union with Christ (among other things).

Now you are jumping out of the context to a complete different book and a completely different context. Stick to the context as there is a huge difference between legal position, representation and actual union and verse 7 clearly demonstrates from a exgetical point of view he is not speaking of spiritual union but legal position as the term used is the term he has been using for "justified" since Romans 3:24. Your theory simply does not hold up in this context.

Again, another mere assertion TOTALLY UNRELATED to the immediate context or any words in the context.

Yes, he is "Positionally" due to justification, which is this context (Rom. 6:7). However, "spiritual union" has no existence without actual union and the justified is not in heaven but on earth and "spiritual union" is the union of the human spirit with the Spirit of Christ ON EARTH. Your position requires omnipresence of humans and indeed deification of humans as God.

Another unfounded assertion.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "dispensational" views, but the difference between LEGAL position and SPIRITUAL union. They are not the same. Spiritual union is confined to earth and to your own person or else you are not in union. Legal position refers to our legal identity with Christ whether we are in heaven or on earth.

This is simply not true. We are "in Adam" BY CREATION and we are not in Christ until we are "CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" (Eph. 2:10) by quickening (Eph. 2:1,5,10). There is no actual literal "spiritual union" prior to being quickened, just as there is no actual literal salvation, justifcation, or glorification prior to new birth except by UNFULFILLED purpose.

No such thing until we are actually united to Christ by quickening in new birth.

Think about what you just said. Spiritual union occurs in "imparted righteousness" and not a moment before in any real sense.

But no man is "in Christ" actually and really until they are "CREATED in Christ Jesus" by quickening (Eph. 2:10) just as no human was "in Adam" until they were CREATED in him (Gen. 1:26).

His answer in this chapter is that the doctrine of grace does not lead to sin, but to holiness! mh. ge,noito May it never be! oi[tinej avpeqa,nomen th/| a`marti,a|/, such ones as we are (qual. pers. pron.) who died to sin, pw/j e;ti zh,somen evn auvth/|È How shall we live any longer in it?! Cf. aor. ajpeqavnomen “died.” (Every occ. of “dead” is aor., and should be so translated from v. 2–10). Every believer “died” to sin, but is not “dead” to sin. What is the difference? [/QUOTE]

The difference is that every believer is LEGALLY dead to sin but they are certainly not LITERALLY dead to sin, and if you think so ask your wife if you are sinless?!: He is speaking about our LEGAL position in Christ as VISUALLY declared in water baptism AND about our RESURRECTION LIFE through regeneration that brings us into spiritual union with Christ for the POWER to overcome sin BY FAITH ("reckon").

The question is "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound" in other words, shall we sin willfully/intentionally in order to magnify the grace of God? Does God's grace promote sin?

The immediate answer is "God forbid"
The illustrative answer is found in what they all partook in before the world - WATER BAPTISM that identifies us wtih TWO THINGS that deny this proposition:

1. We identified with His death to sin - Our Position over sin
2. We identified with His resurrection life - Our Power over sin

The triggering mechanism for POWER over sin by virtue of spiritual union/quickening is to "reckon" ourselves "dead to sin" positionally while depending upon the Spirit who raised up Christ to raise us up over the power of sin.

 

The difference is that every believer is LEGALLY dead to sin but they are certainly not LITERALLY dead to sin, and if you think so ask your wife if you are sinless?!: He is speaking about our LEGAL position in Christ as VISUALLY declared in water baptism AND about our RESURRECTION LIFE through regeneration that brings us into spiritual union with Christ for the POWER to overcome sin BY FAITH ("reckon").

The question is "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound" in other words, shall we sin willfully/intentionally in order to magnify the grace of God? Does God's grace promote sin?

The immediate answer is "God forbid"
The illustrative answer is found in what they all partook in before the world - WATER BAPTISM that identifies us wtih TWO THINGS that deny this proposition:

1. We identified with His death to sin - Our Position over sin
2. We identified with His resurrection life - Our Power over sin

The triggering mechanism for POWER over sin by virtue of spiritual union/quickening is to "reckon" ourselves "dead to sin" positionally while depending upon the Spirit who raised up Christ to raise us up over the power of sin.[/QUOTE]

Both justification and regeneration are past acts BUT actual overcoming of sin is a PRESENT ACT based upon RECKONING and RESISTING by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Notice what you did not list? You did not list "spiritual union" but "sanctification" and present sanctification does not deliver anyone NOW completely from the power or presence of sin but only in the FUTURE at glorification.

Wrong! What you should of said is that he does not have to live under the reigning power of sin but he can. In order not to live under its power he must "reckon" and "resist" and "put on the new man" which are meaningless if he already is FREE from the power and presence of sin. Romans 6:7 tells you that the only FREEDOM he has from sin and death is LEGAL as the term "freed" is the term for Justified.

 

Yes it is a good quote. Understand what he says.
1. It is an imperative--a command--something that you personally must do. Thus it is not a completed action.
2. Keep reading after the bolded. This is a PLEA to live up to the ideal of the baptized life. The picture of baptism was already given half a dozen verses previous to this, and if you could ask Robertson he would tell you it is water baptism. You can look it up for yourself. But now later Paul is begging you to live up to the ideal of what is pictured in water baptism--a life that is dead to sin and risen again in newness of life in Christ.

 

Alrighty fellers, answer me this....


13 neither present ye your members instruments of unrighteousness to the sin, but present yourselves to God as living out of the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God;


16 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.


19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness -- to the lawlessness, so now present your members servants to the righteousness -- to sanctification,

22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;



1) How can water baptism make one a righteous servant?

2) If it literally does all of this, how can one go be with Him w/o being baptized?