Featured Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

You need to study this more in depth. FTR, I am not a Presbyterian, but a baptist, through and through.


God gave Abram the sign of circumcision, whilst he was still uncircumcised. This was carried all the way down through Moses, Aaron, Joshua, all the way down to even Jesus Christ being circumcised. This circumcision was an outward sign that an inward work of the heart had already taken place. However, this foreskin removal was no guarantor they were part of true Israel. Not all of Israel is Israel. Many circumcised Israelites died in the wilderness due to unbelief, yet they were circumcised.

Same with baptism. It is a covenant Christ made for the church as an outward sign that an inward work of the heart had already taken place. But not everyone immersed is part of the true Church, the body of Christ.

 

Judas was wicked even before Satan entered into him. His fate was sealed many moons before he was ever chosen by Christ to be a false prophet.

Even before the foundation of the world.....

All I know is He sent them out two-by-two, and they returned rejoicing that the demons obeyed them. But I'd venture to guess Judas was right there with them all along.

Saul prophesied, Balaam's mule spoke to him, there's two examples of God doing whatsoever He pleases...

I used the John 20 verses to further the discussion, is all...

 

This post was sooooo good, it was a spinning slam dunk...

 

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
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Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc06.html

This statement on the depravity of man goes directly against what you are posting. In your posts you are denying the depravity of man.

 

Sure believe him, but You need to read your text more carefully. This text says absolutely nothing about any spiritual union before the world began. This text is a careful explanation of the basis for our present salvation ("hath"). It was not accidental but "according to his own purpose and grace". That purpose and grace occurred "before the world began." It concerned us "given us" and its restricted sphere of application was "in Christ."

This text does not say WE EXISTED before the world began. Nor are we ETERNAL and God, as actual spiritual union with God before Creation would make us deity, eternal and not a created being. Think about this!

Isaiah 46:10-11 completely refutes your idea that purpose and reality are one and the same and that is precisely the basis of your argument concerning "in Christ" before the world began.

 

First, there is not one word about spirit baptism in this text or context. You are READING IT INTO the text. Instead he is asserting clearly that baptism is a figure of "his resurrection."

Second, the part that I did not highlight is a denial by Peter that it is to be understood literally. Baptism does not literally remove sin. However, faith in the gospel does remove sin (Acts 10:43 - Peter speaking "for remission of sins"). Hence, baptism is a figure of the gospel.

Third, certainly Baptism is based upon a literal truth and that literal truth is clearly stated, it is a figure of "his resurrection" rather than spirit baptism as you claim. Do you know the difference between spirit baptism and "the resurrection"??? Your position would require Peter to have said "by the baptism in the Spirit" AND HE DID NOT SAY THAT. So the reality in view is not the baptism in the Spirit as you claim.

That is not the issue! By claiming that baptism is a figure of His LITERAL resurrection does not deny redemption! Again, for you position to be correct the application of the "figure" in 1 Peter 3:21 would had to read "by the baptism in the Spirit" as the counterpart reality as you claim. However, the counterpart reality to this "figure" is not spirit baptism but "by the resurrection" of Jesus Christ.

Peter tells you explicitly what the Figure speaks about and what it does not speak about. It does not speak about literal inward cleansing from sin, it speaks about the literal "resurrection of Jesus Christ." This baptism is the RESPONSE of an already cleansed conscience rather than the means to clean the conscience (or your baptism in the spirit suggestion). Hence Peter is repudiating the very suggested interpretation you are attempting to READ INTO this text. Its LITERAL counterpart is not spirit baptism but "the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

If Peter had said the literal counterpart of the figure of baptism was spirit baptism you would have a point, but he did not provide that as the literal counterpart! The literal counterpart to this "figure" is "the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and so water baptism is a figurative "LIKENESS" to the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

No wonder you cannot properly interpret or understand Romans 6-8. Let me point some very simple things out to that should demonstrate why your interpretation is completely wrong.

1. New birth, new creature does not describe the whole man, as the whole man has not been saved, born again - particularly "the flesh...this body.." where Paul restricts "the law of sin."

2. Romans 7:14-25 is not the only passage that teach this (Gal. 5:17-25; Eph. 4)

3. Exhortations to "put on" the new man is absurd if that is the condition of the saint already. Exhortations to put to death, self-crucify or "put off" the "old man" is absurd if such a condition does not exist.

4. However, another problem is that anyone reading Romans 6 can clearly see that what Paul claims what they have in one sense (positionally) is the very thing he exhorts them to acquire in another sense (experientially - Rom. 6:11-23). The exhortations "let us"

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The very wording necessarily infers there is a battle between their POSITION in Christ versus their PRACTICE in Christ or otherwise no exhortations would be necessary. That is the basis for interpeting Romans 7:14-25 as the obstacle within true believers that makes this exhortation necessary!

5. The lost unregenerated man does not "delight in the law of God" (Rom. 7:21) especially after "the inward man" but is at war with God and is not submissive to His Law (Rom. 8:7)

6. Paul makes a very careful but a very clear distinction within his own human nature in regard to the source of sin - "it is no more I that do it" verus "that is in my flesh...this body of death...my members".

Your position is promoted by bias rather than objective exegetical based interpretation.

 

Why can't you recognize the obvious in 1 Peter. 3:21?? Your theory demands that the LITERAL counterpart of baptism as a FIGURE is Spirit baptism while Peter says it is "the resurrection of Jesus Christ." If your position was correct he would have said "by the baptism in the Spirit." It is that simple and that clear!

The parenthetical is a NEGATIVE not a postive! He is denying that baptism has any LITERAL application to the very thing you claim is the counterpart to water baptism as a figure! Can't be more simple or clear!

 

No one is claiming the actual is caused by the figurative. The argument is about the identity of the antitype for the type. You claim it is the baptism in the Spirit but Peter claims it is "the resurrection of Jesus Christ" exactly as we do. You claim it is the parenthetical explanation whereas Peter is denying that is the case. It is just that simple.

 

This is the most abused passage of scripture in God's Word. Your interpretation is based upon just jerking it out of its context and ignoring the overall contextual development. The book of Corinthians is introduced by addressing two primary problems concerning WATER baptism. First, a division over the administrator of WATER baptism. Second, the Priority of WATER baptism. The first four chapters deal with these two issues.

Chapters 1-2 deals with the priority of water Baptism in connection with the Gospel. Chapter 3 deals with the division over the administrator of baptism and how a congregation is established. In chapter three Paul's solution to the divsion over the administrator of WATER baptism is that all the human administrators work together as ONE under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the true administrator of WATER baptism as the human administrators operate UNDER His direction (1 Cor. 3:5-9). Under the direction of the Spirit Paul built the "house" "temple" at Corinth (1 Cor. 3:9-16). Therefore "YOU" (plural, not "we") are the temple of God at Corinth (3:16; 12:27) that was formed under the leadership of ONE Spirit as the ultimate administrator of their WATER baptism and placement in the temple. Hence, the principle provided by Paul is that all human instruments operated together under the direction of the Holy Spirit and thus the Spirit is the administrator of water baptism, as well as the builder of the church at Corinth.

They had the same problem of division over spiritual gifts and their priority of use in the assembly at Corinth (ch. 12-14) and Paul applies the very same solution as he gave in 1 Cor. 3:5-16 which is summarized in 1 Cor. 12:12-13. Under the direction of One Spirit were they all WATER baptized into ONE body ("ye" not "we" are that body - v. 27) and all members "drank" or partook of their spiritual gifts from the very same source and thus the DIVERSITY in the congregational body at Corinth was by design (vv. 7-11) so that the congregational body at Corinth was complete or equipped for service at Corinth (vv. 14-26).

Paul distinguishes between the "temple" consisting of "you" plural (not "we") at Corinth (3:16) and the individual "body" or "temple" of the believer (6:19).

Paul's letters are addressed to congregations which are LIKE FAITH AND ORDER and therefore what is true of one congregation in regard to church order, planing, constitution, membership is true of all and thus "we" share in common what "you...ye" share specifically.

 

Why play games? I used the PAST tense, while you are using the FUTURE tense. You know full well that the "new creature" or what has been "born of God" is not the body - it has not yet been saved/glorified. The human body has not been born again, it is not the object of being "created in Christ (Eph. 2:10) Jesus" as it is not what has been "quickened" (Eph. 2:1,5)

Only by playing this kind of game can you run from the truth! Your body is still subject to DEATH and if you don't believe it look in a mirror and then take a look at the grave yards. Hence, the body is still not saved, but under the power of death and it will die unless Christ returns first thus "this body of death" is something the Christian deals with and the "inward man" must be distinguished from the outer man (body) as the outer man is not the new creature.

 

sorry this was a repeat of your post without response

 

I am very well aware of the arguments provided to support your position and they are empty of exegetical value or contextual value.

However, we are not going to get anywhere because I give you SPECIFIC problems to your interpretations while you are merely responding in general platitudes and so any discussion is a waste of time.

1. Your use of 1 Peter 3:21 has been shown to be wrong as Peter provides the very antitype you deny and denies the very antitype you assert.

2. The body of the saint has not been born again, it is still UNDER SIN and DEATH and the grave yards prove it. However, you cannot recognize that truth in the Romans 6-8 context because it would defeat your position, so you jump from past tense position to future tense glorification, which is simply dishonest.