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Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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The Apostle paul stated to them, and to us, in Romans 6 that ther water baptism , in a perfectly understandable symbolic fashion, shows us what had already happened to us when we had received Jesus thru faith, and the baptism in the water was outward sign of what happened to us internally when God had saved us...
That is clearly what he appears to embrace. However, another problem is that anyone reading Romans 6 can clearly see that what Paul claims what they have in one sense (positionally) is the very thing he exhorts them to acquire in another sense (experientially - Rom. 6:11-23). The exhortations "let us"
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
The very wording necessarily infers there is a battle between their POSITION in Christ versus their PRACTICE in Christ or otherwise no exhortations would be necessary. That is the basis for interpeting Romans 7:14-25 as the obstacle within true believers that makes this exhortation necessary!
Think that is why God have paul write Romans7/8, as 7 shows us how we will live as saved if we deny the Spirit enabling/empower us to live as we ought to now...
We have this position in Jesus in the heavens, have all spiritual blessings, but can also chose to neglect using them!
Peter provides them no other option than sacramentalism in regard to water Baptism if they deny it is a PUBLIC FIGURE or LIKENESS of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21).
Hence, they cannot successfully argue that baptism is not a public figurative identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Thus they cannot deny it is figurative of our representative position with Christ that has just been carefully laid out in Romans 3:24-5:21. Neither can they deny it is a perfect example to use for the transition between the doctrine of justification and regenerative life in Christ manifested in walking in the Spirit, as it necessarily involves both in its figurative likeness. Paul's point is that justification by faith without works is not isolated, as there are none justified that are not regenerated and water baptism joins both in public figurative identiication with Christ and the gospel of Christ. Thus a perfect transition model to move from the doctrine of justification to the doctrine of sanctification.
And it should be obvious that he is arguing what they have in one sense (justification) they are progressively struggling to have in another sense (progressive sanctification). The resurrection of Christ identified with in water baptism is the basis for putting on Christ by faith in their practice, which is what they are being exhorted to do in Romans 6:11-8:27.
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Where does it say "spirit" or "soul"??? Where? Only in your fertile imagination. He says "you" not "PART OF" you!
Any water baptism that is administered to the unrepentant is not Biblical baptism at all. John refused to baptize anyone unless the "fruits" of repentance were present (Mt. 3:6-8). John baptized in reference to Christ (Acts 19:5). Have you not read the Great Commission in Luke 24 where they are sent to preach "repentance" (Lk. 24:46).
John clearly stated this baptism in Spirit was still FUTURE, so is there a salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST prior to Acts 2????? Second, he promised this baptism to only WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS and they were never rebaptized in water and their profession of faith was never repeated. Where there is no spiritiual union there is no spiritual life. So your position demands another kind of salvation prior to Pentecost that is OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and which only involves SPIRITUALLY DEAD persons as eternal life is being quickened or don't you understand the term "quickened" means "to be made alive" = spiritual life.
If saints prior to Pentecost, such as those directly addressed in Matthew 3:11 and Acts 1:5 were already in spiritual union in Christ as Iconoclast attempts to prove by texts that speak of God's purpose of salvation before the world, then why would they need to be baptized in the Spirit AFTER Acts 1:5???? Is there a DOUBLE baptism in the Spirit????
If all saints prior to Christ's coming were already in spiritual union with Christ before Acts 2, then what need is there for predicting the fulfillment of something already a reality before Acts 2?????
If all saints prior to Christ's coming were already in spiritual union with Christ before Acts 2, then what need is there for predicting the fulfillment of something already a reality before Acts 2?????
Jesus breated the Spirit "upon" His Apostles, but also told them that they MUST wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit of promise, so how would they see that?
I think a proper explanation and defense of the true Biblical doctrine of the Baptism in the Spirit would require a separate thread to deal with it thoroughly.
convicted1
Guest
Okay, Yesh and Bib, what about those professed believers who died before being water baptized?
Are they in heaven?
Are they in hell?
Are they in heaven?
Are they in hell?
We are saved by Grace alone, received thru faith alone, as the reformers stated. correct?
ANY who have ever been saved was due to death/resurrection of christ, and by being found in him!
convicted1
Guest
Yes, but Bib stated water saves. How can it be grace plus water to be saved??
I think you better reread what I said. I never said such a thing. I said it does save as that is precisely the words of Peter "baptism doth also now save us" (1 Pet. 3:21) and you have only one of two choices for interpreting that statement - (1) Literal or (2) Figurative. Iconoclast repudiates that water baptism FIGURATIVELY identifies the believer with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, however, Peter demands it does identify the believer with the "resurrection" of Christ, by one aspect of baptism - being raised up out of the water, and therefore it also identifies the believer with his death and burial by being brought under the water as in a watery grave.
You and Iconoclast are forced to ether acknowledge water baptism provides a FIGURE of salvation in providing a "likeness" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ OR it literally saves! Which will it be???
I believe it saves FIGURATIVELY in providing a public identification with Christ in the "likeness" of his death, burial and resurrection.
My point precisely! The future fulfillment of the baptism in the Spirit can have NOTHING to do with personal salvation or that would be the case with all those who died without being water or spirit baptized AS IN ALL who lived and died prior to the first coming of Christ.
That is YOUR PROBLEM when you make baptism in the Spirit one and the same with spiritual union with Christ, as there was no baptism in the Spirit BEFORE it was fulfilled on Pentecost, but there could be no salvation before or after Pentecost without spiritual union with Christ as there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ before or after Pentecost. When you make baptism in the Spirit synonmous with spiritual union you CONDEMN TO HELL all before Pentecost as the baptism in the Spirit had no fulfillment until Pentecost.
convicted1
Guest
Never said once water baptism wasn't a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
But there has to be an inner working of the heart, that which only God can do, to make one a viable canidate for immersion.
That is what Apostle Paul was addressing in Romans 6, imo...
But there has to be an inner working of the heart, that which only God can do, to make one a viable canidate for immersion.
That is what Apostle Paul was addressing in Romans 6, imo...
convicted1
Guest
Samson, Rahab, David, Solomon...looked at what shape his life turned into right before he died, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Aaron, Jonah, Joshua, all were looking to Christ. They were regenerated but not converted.
Christ told Peter when he was converted.....
My previous post completely repudiates your interpetation. The baptism in the Spirit is TIME DATED for its arrival and fulfillment ON PENTECOST, but spiritual union with Christ is NOT TIME DATED as there is no salvation possible OUTSIDE of Christ before or after Pentecost. Your interpretation completely contradicts your own view of salvation. You are forced to believe that pre-pentecostal saints have a salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and there is such a thing as salvation without spiritual union!!!
convicted1
Guest
Brother, I bid you adieu....
You're just as obstinate as some others on here....
In all your posts, you've never conceded one point.....
Adieu.....
You're just as obstinate as some others on here....
In all your posts, you've never conceded one point.....
Adieu.....
Do you really realize what you are saying????????? Do you know the difference between "conversion" and "regeneration"? Apparently not or you could not possibly make such a statement. Coversion has to do with repentance and faith in the gospel and all Old Testament saints were converted to faith in Christ (Acts 10:43). However, there can be no conversion with without regeneration as the fallen nature is at WAR with God and is NOT SUBJECT to the Law of God and thus cannot be "converted" apart from regeneration.
convicted1
Guest
Adieu good sir...
BTW, I was speaking with a Brother on the phone yesterday and he told me he thouught your wife was I'll. If this is true, then my prayers go up for both of you.
raying:
BTW, I was speaking with a Brother on the phone yesterday and he told me he thouught your wife was I'll. If this is true, then my prayers go up for both of you.
raying:- Status