Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

[The Biblicist]

Quote:
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;they were said to be baptized unto Moses......they were not Immersed...the ungodly Egyptians were immersed however....

They identified with Moses and were able to pass through the waters of death safely......
these waters of immersion were death
the waters of immersion were death to the world of the ungodly in Noahs day. yet Noah and the others in the ark identified with the message God gave to Noah...they passed through the waters of death safely...being rightly related to it...

Have you forgotten that the type of redemption already provided was the passover - the shed blood of the lamb, then comes the type of baptism in water through the red sea = EXACTLY as in reality - there is first redemption followed by water baptism.

Your view of spirit baptism is simply unscriptural for many many reasons and I list a few:

1. Spiritual union with God IS ETERNAL LIFE as spriitual death is SEPARATION from God - this is regeneration. However, the baptism in the Spirit in all gospel accounts and in Acts 1:5 is something STILL FUTURE and in every single case its object is ALREADY WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS. Moreover, spirit union through regeneration PRECEDES Pentecost as Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for not understanding this as an Old Testament truth (Jn. 3:6-11). You can't have it both ways!!!

2. If there was not spiritual union prior to Pentecost then all men prior to Pentecost existed in a state of spiritual separatioon - SPIRITUAL DEATH and so your view of baptism in the Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE unless you want to take the view that all pre-pentecost persons were spiritually dead, separated (Jn. 3:6; Rom. 8:8-9).

3. Spirit baptism is repeatedly identified with the INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD as the INITIAL divine accreditation NEVER with individual persons or their salvation.

a. Exodus 40:35-37 - covered (immersed) and filled = first house
b. 2 Chron. 7:1-3 - covered (Immersed) and filled = second house
c. Acts 2:1 - ALREADY WATER IMMERSED BELIEVERS immersed in the Spirit

4. Acts 11:15-16 provides the nearest reference point for what happened to the FIRST Gentiles to be "AT the beginning" or the day of Pentecost, but yet thousands had been brought into spiritual union with God through regeneration SINCE Pentecost.

in the same way...Those in UNION with Christ..died and rose identified with Him to the Father...in Saving union......by Spirit baptism .......after that is true by new birth...the once for all baptism is put to their account by the indwelling Spirit as the earnest of their inheritance...then and only then is WATER baptism a "picture" of this work.

You are reversing the order given in Exodus - (1) Passover first; (2) Baptism in sea second. It is the Passover blood that SEPARATED them from Egypt by bringing them LITERALLY under the blood as a type of spiritual salvation. They were LITERALLY immersed in the sea (clouds before, after, over and water on both sides). Both are LITERAL but both are TYPES of literal salvation (passover) and literal baptism (baptism in the sea). This is the order of the Great Commission, blood before the water. It has nothing to do with any baptism in the Spirit except in your imagination.

Presbyterians speak of infant sprinkling as a sign and seal...that they administer claiming it identifies the infant as being in the covenant...externally.

However, justification occurs FIRST prior to any seal or sign as Paul proves in Romans 4:9-12. Thus, you are simply wrong in using this argument as it does not support infant sprinkling at all.

I

 

[The Biblicist]

first.....I look to the reality first...picture secondary, important , but secondary.
but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with

First, you deny the order between the passover and baptism in Exodus by your theological application of that baptism. Second you ignore the fact that your quotation of Matthew 3:11 is addressing already WATER BAPTIZED BELEIVERS and indeed that is case for every text containing this promise right up to Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5, 2:38). Hence, you must either argue Pre-pentecost water baptized believers were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED (unregenerated) or your theory is simply wrong!

I answered here;
Quote:
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You got to be kidding?!?!?! This does not say one word about spirit baptism of any kind! Follow his argument from verse 11. Paul is explaining his rebuke to Peter in regard to justification by obedience to the Law and the hypocrisy of Peter's action due to fear of the Judiazers which directly contradicted "the truth of the gospel." He argues that if also followed after Peter's hypocrisy, that he would be rebuilding the very thing he had destroyed by his gospel - justification by works of the Law. In verse 21 he is contrasting their model of a life under the law for justification versus a life under grace based upon the substitutionary work of Christ. By justification through faith without works, identification with Christ on the cross is POSITIONAL - LEGAL and distinct from HIS OWN LIFE "in the flesh." Note the difference between LEGALLY with Christ on the cross versus His life LITERALLY "in the flesh" He is not living to be justified by works, as the Judiazers or as the hypocritical example of Peter and Barnabas taught. No, his life "in the flesh" is a CONSEQUENCE rather than the CAUSE for justification. There is no such thing as a justified man who is not a regenerated man in Pauline theology. Hence, "I LIVE" and he is doing this "in the flesh" not by his own power, but by the power of Christ living in him. This life "in the flesh" is a life lived "BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" or more literally "by faith which has for its object the Son of God" as in Colossians 2:6 "as you have received the Lord Jesus Christ SO WALK YE IN HIM." His point is that HIS CURRENT LIFE IN THE FLESH is not being lived to obtain justification by works but is the product of justification by grace.

he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......

the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...

The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifies the motions of sin.

he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,

23 and I behold another law in my members,

warring against the law of my mind,

and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin

that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!

who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,

Again, this is not about regeneration or baptism in the spirit but our WALK BY FAITH IN THE SPIRIT which COMES AND GOES depending on whether we are in Romans 7 depending on our own power or in Romans 8 depending on His power.

then you say this;


If you do not believe it exists...how can you believe it....get serious.lol

He is absolutely correct! There is no INDIVIDUAL application of the baptism in the Spirit in Scripture. It is impossible for it to be "spiritual union" or else all prior to Pentecost are "spiritually separated" - SPIRITUALLY DEAD. Moreover, the only ones promised the baptism in the Spirit is a (1) a PLURAL YOU (2) Already believers; (3) Already water baptized which completely debunks your whole spirit baptism position.

 

[The Biblicist]

Anytime, Brother, anytime....

Your's was a slam dunk....

Here's Brother DHK's....

I challenge anyone on this forum to prove any baptism in the Spirit of unbaptized, unbelievers anywhere in scripture, with the solitary exception of Gentile believers in Acts 10 and there it preceded in order for Jews to water baptize them as fully explained in Acts 11.

I challenge anyone to find one solitary text where the PROMISE of the baptism in the spirit prior to Acts 2 was to anyone but a PLURAL "you" already baptized in water believers.

I Challenge anyone to find one solitary text where "spiritual union" before or after Pentecost is equal to baptism in the Spirit.

 

[convicted1]

I challenge anyone on this forum to prove any baptism in the Spirit of unbaptized, unbelievers anywhere in scripture, with the solitary exception of Gentile believers in Acts 10.

I challenge anyone to find one solitary text where the PROMISE of the baptism in the spirit prior to Acts 2 was to anyone but a PLURAL "you" already baptized in water believers.

I Challenge anyone to find one solitary text where "spiritual union" before or after Pentecost is equal to baptism in the Spirit.

None of the context in Romans 6 refers to water. The water does nothing to make us righteous.

 

[The Biblicist]

None of the context in Romans 6 refers to water. The water does nothing to make us righteous.

You think merely denying it prove its one way or the other???? You assert it because the evidence I have placed before you is irrefutable or else you would point out the flaws - you can't and so all your available options are (1) Continue to deny without evidence; (2) Attack the messenger, ridicule.

My first post to Ionoclast is irrefutable and completely repudiates the idea of the baptism in spirit wherever you attempt to READ IT INTO a passage. If not, then simply answer my objections.

1. If your theory is true then all prior to Pentecost were SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED not IN SPIRITUAL UNION thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD - lost, in hell

2. If your theory is true then why none but already WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS are given this promise right up to Pentecost (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38)?

3. If your theory is true then why is this same act only reserved and applied to the INSTITUTIONAL house of God prior to Pentecost (Ex. 40; 2 Chron. 7) and thus in keeping with this to the new institutional house of God on Acts 2 (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[convicted1]

You think merely denying it prove its one way or the other???? You assert it because the evidence I have placed before you is irrefutable or else you would point out the flaws - you can't and so all your available options are (1) Continue to deny without evidence; (2) Attack the messenger, ridicule.

My first post to Ionoclast is irrefutable and complete repudiates the idea of the baptism in spirit wherever you attempt to READ IT INTO a passage. If not, then simply answer my objections.

I answered this more than once in this thread. Please go back and read back in the thread....

 

[The Biblicist]

I answered this more than once in this thread. Please go back and read back in the thread....

You never answered these objections anywhere in this thread. If you had, you could simply point to the thread. No one on this forum has ever responded to these objections by any thread, as I have offered them over and over and NO EVIDENCE offered by anyone.

 

[The Biblicist]

Have you forgotten that the type of redemption already provided was the passover - the shed blood of the lamb, then comes the type of baptism in water through the red sea = EXACTLY as in reality - there is first redemption followed by water baptism.

Your view of spirit baptism is simply unscriptural for many many reasons and I list a few:

1. Spiritual union with God IS ETERNAL LIFE as spriitual death is SEPARATION from God - this is regeneration. However, the baptism in the Spirit in all gospel accounts and in Acts 1:5 is something STILL FUTURE and in every single case its object is ALREADY WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS. Moreover, spirit union through regeneration PRECEDES Pentecost as Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for not understanding this as an Old Testament truth (Jn. 3:6-11). You can't have it both ways!!!

2. If there was not spiritual union prior to Pentecost then all men prior to Pentecost existed in a state of spiritual separatioon - SPIRITUAL DEATH and so your view of baptism in the Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE unless you want to take the view that all pre-pentecost persons were spiritually dead, separated (Jn. 3:6; Rom. 8:8-9).

3. Spirit baptism is repeatedly identified with the INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD as the INITIAL divine accreditation NEVER with individual persons or their salvation.

a. Exodus 40:35-37 - covered (immersed) and filled = first house
b. 2 Chron. 7:1-3 - covered (Immersed) and filled = second house
c. Acts 2:1 - ALREADY WATER IMMERSED BELIEVERS immersed in the Spirit

4. Acts 11:15-16 provides the nearest reference point for what happened to the FIRST Gentiles to be "AT the beginning" or the day of Pentecost, but yet thousands had been brought into spiritual union with God through regeneration SINCE Pentecost.



You are reversing the order given in Exodus - (1) Passover first; (2) Baptism in sea second. It is the Passover blood that SEPARATED them from Egypt by bringing them LITERALLY under the blood as a type of spiritual salvation. They were LITERALLY immersed in the sea (clouds before, after, over and water on both sides). Both are LITERAL but both are TYPES of literal salvation (passover) and literal baptism (baptism in the sea). This is the order of the Great Commission, blood before the water. It has nothing to do with any baptism in the Spirit except in your imagination.



However, justification occurs FIRST prior to any seal or sign as Paul proves in Romans 4:9-12. Thus, you are simply wrong in using this argument as it does not support infant sprinkling at all.

I

My responses are given above. If you have a valid objection then simply state it, state the text which you think responds to these objections.

 

[The Biblicist]

None of the context in Romans 6 refers to water. The water does nothing to make us righteous.

The text does not say the baptism in question "make us righteous." That is simply your insertion and assumption and thus presumption.

Water baptism is the perfect, unanswerable response to the objection "shall we continue in sin" because of our security based on our position in Christ (Rom. 5:1-21). Every member at this church had been water baptized. Every member in this church identified publicly and pictorially with the death of Christ in that baptism - thus death to sin. Every member at this church identified with the resurrection of Christ in baptism - thus regenerative life over the power of sin - but not every believer was EXPERIENCING that power over sin (Rom. 7:14-25) as it is only experienced by an act of faith WALKING IN THE SPIRIT rather than any baptism in the Spirit

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist

Have you forgotten that the type of redemption already provided was the passover - the shed blood of the lamb, then comes the type of baptism in water through the red sea = EXACTLY as in reality - there is first redemption followed by water baptism.

Your view of spirit baptism is simply unscriptural for many many reasons and I list a few:

I did not think we were in agreement here, only partial agreement at best.
No ...I did not forget the blood at all.
I will defend my view to you.

1. Spiritual union with God IS ETERNAL LIFE as spiritual death is SEPARATION from God - this is regeneration.

Spiritual Union with God that results in eternal life is nothing less than the eternal Plan and purpose of God the Covenant of Redemption and Grace unfolding in time. It is more than just regeneration as you say.

John Murray in his book Redemption, Accomplished, and Applied gives a nice well rounded teaching on the main parts of the biblical teaching on this topic.

Redemption made necessary because of the fall, accomplished by the Work of the Son, and applied by the Spirit.

However, the baptism in the Spirit in all gospel accounts and in Acts 1:5 is something STILL FUTURE and in every single case its object is ALREADY WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS.

If you are speaking of John's baptism of repentance which was preparatory, it was still future for a reason. The axe was laid at the root of the tree....old cov/ changing to new cov. It was still an OT washing and identification with Johns message of repentance.

After Pentecost in the new covenant, after the once for all time Spirit Baptism took place, new testament believers baptism was still required of Johns converts....Acts 19.....so your case has some holes in it already.

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Moreover, spirit union through regeneration PRECEDES Pentecost as Jesus rebukes Nicodemus for not understanding this as an Old Testament truth (Jn. 3:6-11). You can't have it both ways!!!

Anyone saved anywhere in the bible is saved by the Spirit of God having placed them into the body of Christ. No where does water baptism actually save someone. The ordinance of water baptism is primarily an outward picture of the Spiritual reality. A picture...is not the reality...or it would not be spoken of as a picture or symbol.

2. If there was not spiritual union prior to Pentecost then all men prior to Pentecost existed in a state of spiritual separatioon - SPIRITUAL DEATH and so your view of baptism in the Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE unless you want to take the view that all pre-pentecost persons were spiritually dead, separated (Jn. 3:6; Rom. 8:8-9).

Spiritual Union with Christ existed before the world was;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

3. Spirit baptism is repeatedly identified with the INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD as the INITIAL divine accreditation NEVER with individual persons or their salvation.

a. Exodus 40:35-37 - covered (immersed) and filled = first house
b. 2 Chron. 7:1-3 - covered (Immersed) and filled = second house
c. Acts 2:1 - ALREADY WATER IMMERSED BELIEVERS immersed in the Spirit

We have partial agreement here. the bolded portion is where we agree.
Pentecost is to the Church what the shekinah glory was to the temple.

4. Acts 11:15-16 provides the nearest reference point for what happened to the FIRST Gentiles to be "AT the beginning" or the day of Pentecost, but yet thousands had been brought into spiritual union with God through regeneration SINCE Pentecost.

At regeneration the once for all time Spirit Baptism is applied to the individual elect believer.

You are reversing the order given in Exodus - (1) Passover first; (2) Baptism in sea second.

1]I do not reverse the order..it is always redemption accomplished and applied applied.
2]The baptism mentioned in 1 cor 10 had to do with Moses not the water.The water was death to the Egyptians....the cloud did not baptize anyone.
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were identified unto Moses...they were "under the cloud" they passed through the sea.

It is the Passover blood that SEPARATED them from Egypt by bringing them LITERALLY under the blood as a type of spiritual salvation. They were LITERALLY immersed in the sea (clouds before, after, over and water on both sides). Both are LITERAL but both are TYPES of literal salvation (passover) and literal baptism (baptism in the sea). This is the order of the Great Commission, blood before the water.

The waters of the sea were not literal baptism for them. It was quite literal for the Egyptians however. It was death to the Egyptians

It has nothing to do with any baptism in the Spirit except in your imagination.

Not so bib..it has everything to do with the reality of Spirit Baptism...as does Romans 6. Without Spirit baptism in Romans 6...your water baptism does not have a "reality" to picture.

However, justification occurs FIRST prior to any seal or sign as Paul proves in Romans 4:9-12. Thus, you are simply wrong in using this argument as it does not support infant sprinkling at all.

I do not support infant sprinkling.

Again, this is not about regeneration or baptism in the spirit but our WALK BY FAITH IN THE SPIRIT which COMES AND GOES depending on whether we are in Romans 7 depending on our own power or in Romans 8 depending on His power.

Nothing said Paul was operating apart from the Spirit in Romans 7...that is a gross error. he is writing as a believer depending on the Spirit in 6, 7, and 8.......he is not in the flesh in rom 7 and moving into the Spirit filled life in romans 8....the higher life teaching is wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I answered here;
Quote:
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You got to be kidding?!?!?! This does not say one word about spirit baptism of any kind! Follow his argument from verse 11. Paul is explaining his rebuke to Peter in regard to justification by obedience to the Law and the hypocrisy of Peter's action due to fear of the Judiazers which directly contradicted "the truth of the gospel." He argues that if also followed after Peter's hypocrisy, that he would be rebuilding the very thing he had destroyed by his gospel - justification by works of the Law. In verse 21 he is contrasting their model of a life under the law for justification versus a life under grace based upon the substitutionary work of Christ. By justification through faith without works, identification with Christ on the cross is POSITIONAL - LEGAL and distinct from HIS OWN LIFE "in the flesh." Note the difference between LEGALLY with Christ on the cross versus His life LITERALLY "in the flesh" He is not living to be justified by works, as the Judiazers or as the hypocritical example of Peter and Barnabas taught. No, his life "in the flesh" is a CONSEQUENCE rather than the CAUSE for justification. There is no such thing as a justified man who is not a regenerated man in Pauline theology. Hence, "I LIVE" and he is doing this "in the flesh" not by his own power, but by the power of Christ living in him. This life "in the flesh" is a life lived "BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD" or more literally "by faith which has for its object the Son of God" as in Colossians 2:6 "as you have received the Lord Jesus Christ SO WALK YE IN HIM." His point is that HIS CURRENT LIFE IN THE FLESH is not being lived to obtain justification by works but is the product of justification by grace.

This verse was used to show we are co-crucified with Christ...the old man being dead having been crucified. It was not a text discussing baptism per se.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist

The text does not say the baptism in question "make us righteous." That is simply your insertion and assumption and thus presumption.

Spirit baptism places a sinner IN CHRIST..in saving union with HIM...everytime we read in scripture IN CHRIST...that is exactly what it talks about.

Water baptism is the perfect, unanswerable response to the objection "shall we continue in sin" because of our security based on our position in Christ (Rom. 5:1-21).

Nonsense.....water baptism...does not place anyone IN CHRIST. Spirit baptism does.....hardly unanswerable.

Every member at this church had been water baptized. Every member in this church identified publicly and pictorially with the death of Christ in that baptism - thus death to sin.

There is no picture except for the reality...Spirit baptism uniting us to the sinless Christ. Everything associated with salvation in the work of salvation in Romans 6 is because of the Holy Spirit, not water.
All these activites in Romans 6 are accomplished By the Spirit having put us IN union with Christ...not by the "picture " given in water baptism..it is the reality IN Christ By Spirit Baptism that we are to reckon as an already completed action. from an earlier post 44-

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, .......live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,


even so we also should walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this,

that

our old man is crucified with him,

that the body of sin might be destroyed,

that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves
to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign
in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:

for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;


even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.20

For when ye were the servants of sin,

ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin,

and become servants to God,

ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The bolded portions describe who we are In Christ...We are not two people in one...the old man is crucified...we are made knew by the Spirit.

water baptism does not do any of these things

Every member at this church identified with the resurrection of Christ in baptism - thus regenerative life over the power of sin - but not every believer was EXPERIENCING that power over sin (Rom. 7:14-25) as it is only experienced by an act of faith WALKING IN THE SPIRIT rather than any baptism in the Spirit[/QUOTE

]
This misses these verses entirely.

 

[The Biblicist]

Spiritual Union with God that results in eternal life

Your whole theory stands or falls right here with this statement. What you are ignoring, or denying or possibly ignorant of, is the fact that God IS life, life is not a "result" of being God but God "IS" life. Furthermore, to be "spiritually" SEPARATED from God IS spiritual death (separation) as there is no UNION between your spirit and His Spirit (Jn. 3:6). Spiritual union (our spirit joined with the Holy Spirit) IS eternal life rather than "results in eternal life."

Regeneration is much more than spiritual union but it IS that at minimum and spiritual union between our spirit and the Holy Spirit IS eternal life.

is nothing less than the eternal Plan and purpose of God .

Don't confuse PURPOSE with REALITY because they are not the same.

Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Just because it is His eternal purpose, does not mean it is reality in time and space and spiritual union does not exist between man and God prior to man being created. To assert that such a union is eternal is to make man inseparable from the eternal nature of God and thus make him equal in nature to God and that is heresy. By the way, I do not charge you with that idea.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist


Spirit baptism places a sinner IN CHRIST..in saving union with HIM...everytime we read in scripture IN CHRIST...that is exactly what it talks about.

You can't presume the position when it is the very subject of debate. That is exactly what you are doing in the above statement. You have not proven that statement to be true. It is that very statement which is subject to debate.

1. Nowhere does it say "spirit baptism" places anyone "in Christ." You assume this when no text in scripture says that.

2. There are SEVEN different ways a believer can be "IN CHRIST"

(1) In Christ by purposeful choice before the world - Eph. 1:4
(2) In Christ by legal Position - Eph. 2:6
(3) In Christ by Federal representation - Rom. 5:12-19
(4) In Christ by creation (quickening in context) - Eph. 2:1,5,10
(5) In Christ by symbolism - water baptism - Rom. 6; Gal. 3:15
(6) In Christ metaphorically as a metaphorical "member" of a metaphorical body - 1 Cor. 12:27
(7) In Christ experientially by faith daily - walking in the Spirit - Col. 2:6; Gal. 5:25

Nonsense.....water baptism...does not place anyone IN CHRIST. Spirit baptism does.....hardly unanswerable.

Water baptism remits sins,(Acts 22:16) it saves (1 Pet. 3:21) and either it does it LITERALLY or it does it SYMBOLICALLY, figuratively. So which is it??? It is your positon that is absolute nonsense. There is but "one baptism" and it is the one promised until the end of the age in the Great Commission (Mt. 28:19-20) and that is the kind one human being ("ye")can administer to another human being ("them")

Unless you are a sacramentalist you have no other option but to believe water baptism is a SYMBOL of remission of sins, salvation and the gospel of Christ which includes both remission of sins and salvation.

I can't deal with the rest of your arguments tonight - too late. Will pick it up in the morning.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Biblicist, a blog I just recently wrote about Romans 6....


www.hardshelloldregularbaptist.word...he-water-in-the-baptism-spoken-of-in-romans-6

 

[The Biblicist]

If you are speaking of John's baptism of repentance which was preparatory, it was still future for a reason. The axe was laid at the root of the tree....old cov/ changing to new cov. It was still an OT washing and identification with Johns message of repentance.

John's baptism is another subject (which you are completely ignorant about, as it was neither preparatory or future but the actual baptism in the Great Commission, and only baptism the apostles and Jesus ever surrendered to). I am speaking of John's promise that Christ would baptize "you" in Matthew 3:11 in the Spirit - the baptism in the Spirit was FUTURE in all gospel accounts. Future from the time of Acts 1:5.

There is NO SALVATION FOR ANYONE AT ANY TIME OUTSIDE OF CHRIST! If the baptism in the Spirit is as you claim to be union with Christ, or union in spirit, then you have damned to hell all believers prior to Pentecost OR you are demanding another way of salvation, another kind of salvation, OUTSIDE OF CHRIST prior to Pentecost.

After Pentecost in the new covenant, after the once for all time Spirit Baptism took place, new testament believers baptism was still required of Johns converts....Acts 19.....so your case has some holes in it already.

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This is a very highly disputed text. This occurred nearly 20 years after Pentecost. Their water baptism was defect because it was not according to John's baptism (vv. 5-6) as they claimed. John did not administer baptism in reference to himself but baptized those who believed in Jesus, whom he preached (Jn. 3:36).

However, you are simply dodging your problem. Those in the gospel accounts were ALREADY believers in Christ and ALREADY water baptized and it is unto them the baptism in the Spirit is promised. Your theory of the baptism in this spirit must view them as OUTSIDE OF CHRIST even as baptized believers and without SPIRITUAL UNION with God even as baptized believers as you must view ALL prior to Pentecost.

Anyone saved anywhere in the bible is saved by the Spirit of God having placed them into the body of Christ.

You are contradicting scripture as scripture places the baptism in the Spirit FUTURE in all gospel accounts. So if the baptism in the spirit is UNION WITH THE SPIRIT or UNION WITH CHRIST "anywhere in the bible....having palced them into the body of Christ" then your definition of the baptism in the Spirit must be false as there is no baptism in the Spirit prior to Pentecost.

Spiritual Union with Christ existed before the world was;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You are confused! Spiritual union with Christ did not exist before the world was EXCEPT BY DESIGN/PURPOSE, it had no more reality than you being GLORIFIED before the world was (Rom. 8:28-30). You are confusing PURPOSE with REALITY and the purpose of God existed prior to the world began but it was not carried out in actuality until AFTER you were born in time and space and Isaiah 46:10-11 spells it out clearly if you don't understand that:

Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

We have partial agreement here. the bolded portion is where we agree.
Pentecost is to the Church what the shekinah glory was to the temple.

No we don't! The Tabernacle, Temple and church are all equally the INSTITUTIONAL PUBLIC "house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15). They all EQUALLY have a public qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13). They all EQUALLY have public qualified ordinances; They all EQUALLY are a public "house" of worship. The only UNEQUAL aspect is their component nature. The tabernacle and temple were inanimate in nature whereas the New Testament "house of God" was made up of "lively stones" (1 Pet. 2:2) composed of WATER BAPTIZED believers (Mt. 16:15-18; 18:17-18).

At regeneration the once for all time Spirit Baptism is applied to the individual elect believer.

Your theory is absolutely false for all the following reasons:

1. No baptism in the Spirit occurred prior to Pentecost as ALL PROMISES prior to Pentecost are FUTURE - hence no individuals were baptized in the Spirit prior to Pentecost as your theory demands.

2. Spiritual union and baptism in the Spirit are not one and the same anywhere in scriptures as the former is quickening/regeneration/new birth while the latter is institutional accreditation before and after Pentecost.

3. There is no LITERAL/ACTUAL spiritual union between Christ and His elect before the world began but only spiritual union PURPOSED. To demand there is to demand that God and man share the same eternal nature which is blasphemy, as anyone or anything (pantheism) in actual spiritual union with God prior to Creation is ONE IN NATURE WITH GOD.

2]The baptism mentioned in 1 cor 10 had to do with Moses not the water.The water was death to the Egyptians....the cloud did not baptize anyone.
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were identified unto Moses...they were "under the cloud" they passed through the sea.

You are really confused here. The passover and immersion of Israel (clouds before and after and above, water walls on both sides - complete immersion) are in their proper order. Israel was immersed before the Egyptians were drowned.

The Passover pictures literal redemption UNDER THE BLOOD and thus IN CHRIST where as the baptism unto Moses pictures New Testament baptism in water which always occurs AFTER redemption by the blood exactly in the order provided in Exodus.

The waters of the sea were not literal baptism for them.

Paul does not say the Egyptians were "baptized/immersed unto Moses" does he? However, that is the twist/spin you are attempting to place on the word "baptized" in that text. They were indeed immersed literally as the walls of water were on both sides of them, the cloud was over them, behind and before them - they were completely covered. It is an old testament type of water baptism. The Egyptians were a type of "the flesh" or "the world" and in water baptism we are figuratively identified with Christ's death and "resurrection" :

1 Pet. 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


If literal water baptism provides in FIGURE the "resurrection of Jesus Christ" so does it identify us in FIGURE with the death and burial of Jesus Christ.

Nothing said Paul was operating apart from the Spirit in Romans 7...that is a gross error. he is writing as a believer depending on the Spirit in 6, 7, and 8.......he is not in the flesh in rom 7 and moving into the Spirit filled life in romans 8....the higher life teaching is wrong.

I take it that you believe that Romans 7:14-25 is not referring to a saved Paul then?? No wonder you cannot understand Romans 6 properly. Romans 6 simply delcares what they have POSITIONALLY through justification, FIGURATIVELY IDENTIFIED in water baptism but what they CANNOT EXPERIENCE until they put one Christ by faith (vv. 11-13). They are dead to the law POSITIONALLY (Rom. 7:1-5) and alive to Christ regeneratively) but not due to the law for salvation (Rom. 7:6-13), nor due to the law for sanctification (Rom. 7:14-25). They must PUT ON Christ to experience their POSITION in Christ, and they put him on by the Holy Spirit through reckoning themselves dead positionally in Christ (Rom. 8:9-13).

 

[The Biblicist]

Brother Biblicist, a blog I just recently wrote about Romans 6....


www.hardshelloldregularbaptist.word...he-water-in-the-baptism-spoken-of-in-romans-6

What you fellas are missing is the overall picture (no pun intended). Romans 3:24-5:21 is all about our POSITION in Christ due to JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH. Romans 6-8:27 is all about making OUR LEGAL POSITION in Christ according to justification BECOMING our EXPERIENCE in our daily life by the power of the Holy Spirit. If you fail to perceive/understand/grasp this overall aim you cannot possibly interpret Romans 6-8 correctly, and you don't.

What he claims they have in one sense (legal position and public identification with in water baptism and regeneration in Romans 6:1-10) they do not have in another sense in Romans 6:11-8:27 apart from PUTTING IT ONE BY FAITH THROUGH THE INDWELLING POWER OF THE SPIRIT received in regeneration.

Water baptism is the perfect transition point for his argument from their legal position in Christ (chs. 3-5) to their experiential life in Christ (Rom. 7:14-8:27) because water baptism publicly identifies them with Christ's death to sin and His resurrection to life. Therefore, it declares there is no such thing as a justified person who is not also a regenerated person and it is through the power of the quickening Spirit that EXPERIENTIAL LIFE IN CHRIST IS REALIZED by faith just as justification is realized by faith and thus "As ye received the Lord Jesus Christ SO WALK YE IN HIM" and that is precisely the exhortation being given in Romans 6:11-8:13.

The Baptism in the Spirit had no REALITY prior to Pentecost, but there is no salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST before or after Pentecost - hence your theory of the baptism in the Spirit is IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[The Biblicist]

1. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ any time for anyone before or after Pentecost.

2. There is no LITERAL spiritual union in Christ before it happens in time and space by a creative act (Eph. 2:10) which is quickening (making alive - Eph. 2:1, 5,8,10).

3. Quickening IS being made spiritually alive and there is no spiritual life apart from union with the Spirit with our spirit (Jn. 3:6).

4. Before the world began our salvation was ONLY PURPOSED but totally without any reality until that purpose was executed in time and space (Isa. 46:10-11; Rom. 8:28-30).

5. The baptism in the Spirit is consistently yet future in all gospel accounts and in Acts 1:5 and is in reference only to those ALREADY water baptized and ALREADY believers in Christ.

6. Romans 6:1-10 is transitional between the doctrine of Justification (Rom. 3:34-5:21) and the doctrine of progressive sanctification (Rom. 6:11-8:27). Water baptism is the perfect transition illustration as it joins together in one symbolic public identification with Christ their LEGAL position and their Resurrected life condition which is the basis for EXPERIENCING BY FAITH the life of progressive sanctification (Rom. 6:11-8:27).

7. There is not one word about "spirit baptism" in Romans 6 and therefore no such assumption should be made.

 

[The Biblicist]

Brother Biblicist, a blog I just recently wrote about Romans 6....


www.hardshelloldregularbaptist.word...he-water-in-the-baptism-spoken-of-in-romans-6

"I hear people talking about the baptism spoken of in Romans 6 as the believer being baptized…immersed, in the water. Yet, I can find no mentioning of it there."

The mere mention of baptism would be naturally received by his writers to be in reference to water baptism. However, there is not one word about "spirit baptism" in this text. Water baptism does FIGURATIVELY identify the believer publicly with the death and "resurrection by Jesus Christ" according to Peter (1 Pet. 3:21). Hence, take your choice, it either (1) Literally saves or it (2) figuratively saves. If it literally saves then you are not a Baptist or an evangelical. If it figuratively saves then it does provide a PICTURE that identifies us with the "likeness" of His death and resurrection just as Peter clearly and explicitly states and I quote:

1 Pet. 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Now how does baptism "save us"? and how does it do so "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" if not by "LIKENESS" in "figure"??????

 

[The Biblicist]

Spiritual death IS separation between the human spirit and the Spirit of God, just as the reverse (spiritual union) is spiritual life.

1. "You hath he QUICKENED who were dead" - Eph. 2:1 The term "quickened" means to be MADE ALIVE. In verse 5 this act of quickening is then described as "for by grace are ye SAVED." In verse 8 it is repeated "by grace are ye SAVED" and it is this salvation that is "not of works" (v. 9) because or "for we are His workmanship CREATED in Christ" (v. 10a) - thus quickening - being made spiritually alive is a CREATIVE act of God that puts one "in Christ" rather than baptism in the Spirit.

2. The unregenerate are "alienated from the life of God THROUGH IGNORANCE" - Eph. 4:18.

The "life" of God is also called "light" (Jn. 1:4) In him was Life and the life was the LIGHT." Light is metaphorical for "knowledge" and thus the unregenerated, the unquickened are separated/alienated from the life of God "THROUGH IGNORANCE." This ignorance is "in them" and it is removed "in them" by a direct creative revelatory quickening act of God.

The knowledge necessary to unite them to the life of God is DIRECT REVELATION - "This life eternal that they might KNOW the only true God..." (Jn. 17:3). This is knowledge of God by direct revelation that cannot come from "flesh and blood" (Mt. 16:15) as it too is inseparable from the same CREATIVE act of God (2 Cor. 4:6):

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, [the creative act of God in Gen. 1:3] hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.["created in Christ Jesus" knowledge by direct revelation - quickening - not from "flesh and blood"] - 2 Cor. 4:6

God speaks light into existence by divine fiat apart from any human instrumentality ("flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee" although human instrumentality is used to bring the gospel TO the elect but only God can apply it IN the elect). Hence, regeneration is a QUICKENING REVELATION by the creative act of God "in our heart" that calls us out of darkness into the light of His kingdom = effectual call as in the creative act in calling light out of darkness in Gen. 1:2-3.

As an act of quickening it is being brought back into spiritual union with God. As created Light of knowledge it is the removal of the ignorance, hardness and resistance "in our hearts" as light DISPLACES all darkness and these are forms of darkness in the heart (Tit. 3:5).

As a creative Light of knowledge it reveals God "in the face of Jesus Christ" because His creative word is the truth of the gospel that does not come "in word only but in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Pet. 1:5). As "light of knowledge" it removes the guilt of conscience as it reveals forgiveness in the truth of the gospel "in our hearts". As light of knowledge it is the creation of faith in Christ Jesus as the light removes the darkness of unbelief, hardeness from the heart.


But the baptism in the Spirit has absolutely nothing to do with being created in Christ by quickening as there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ any time for anyone but the baptism in the Spirit is DATED and has no REALITY prior to Pentecost except by PURPOSE only and thus no more actual or real than glorification before the world began. However, all prior to Pentecost MUST be brought into spiritual union with God or they are spiritually separated from God - spiritually dead. Hence, spiritual union must not merely be PURPOSED before Pentecost but have REALITY in time and space before Pentecost, whereas, the baptism in the Spirit had NO REALITY prior to Pentecost in reference to people, as it is prophetic only prior to Pentecost, dated by Pentecost - Act 1:5 - hence there is no relationship between spiritual union and baptism in the Spirit.