Featured my initial post on gospel/eternal salvation....

Oh please....you seem to enjoy throwing accusatory term around .....that's not debate, its name calling.

 

God is not WILLING that any should perish.
It is God's will that ALL should be saved.
But God knew from the beginning that all would not be saved, and, in fact, the majority would of their own will reject Him. That rejection was not what "He purposed" in eternity, though he knew it would happen. What he purposed in eternity was to send His Son to pay the penalty for our sins.

This is a denial of eternal security.
It is a belief in works salvation. We are not saved by following rules. We do not keep our salvation by following rules. We do not lose our salvation if we fail to keep the rules.

I have already demonstrated through scripture that faith is not works or a work. The scriptures are very clear on this. Faith and works are opposed to each other. Whatever happened to sola fide?

Scripture taken out of context.
Salvation itself is a gift, given free to all that call upon Him in faith. It is provided by grace. It is given in time not before the foundation of the world. That is not what that verse teaches. You mishandle the Word of God.

 

No one is called any name, so why make false accusations?

 

I recall the word heretical .....the implication is....:tear:

 

Paul says it is "of faith that it may be BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16

Jesus says that faith is "the work of God" and the context proves this beyond doubt as only those FIRST GIVEN by the Father Come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:37-40) JUST as only those FIRST DRAWN by the Father can come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:44). Justifying faith is THE WORK OF GOD as none come but those given and drawn by the Father. All others who come to Christ come by false profession (Jn. 6:64-65).

Have you never read Philippians 2:13???????? Have you never read John 15:5b? Have you never read Romans 8:12-13? All good works produced in the life of a believer are produced by the grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit even to "will" as well as to "do" anything that is his good pleasure. YOU CAN DO NOTHING in your own power, it is ALL OF GRACE!

You pit one aspect against another aspect of grace, and call one aspect grace while calling the other aspect works when it is by grace as well. Don't you know Paul said using the PRESENT TENSE "I am what I am BY THE GRACE OF GOD."

 

It is the DOCTRINE that is heretical, whereas the word "heretic" refers to the person and yes, what he is teaching in my opinion is absolutely heretical even though he may be doing it sincerely and with personal integrity.

 

These scriptures DO NOT SAY "for our salvation" do they???? Why? Because our personal obedience is NEVER for salvation as that is justification by works which is clearly condemned by Paul as "another gospel."

The moral law is good, holy and righteous but we are not even capable of obeying it as children of God or have you not read Romans 7:14-25? Jesus said TO BELIEVERS - "without me ye CAN DO NOTHING." If we do anything at all that is pleasing to God it is because it is "God that worketh in us both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13 ALL OF GRACE!!!!

Salvation from eternity past to eternity future is ALL OF GRACE and none will be able to glory in front of God on judgement day about ANYTHING THEY DID, why? Because as Paul says,

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


There is no salvation by grace in eternity apart from salvation by grace in time - no such animal exists!

 

No, I do my best to keep things in context, or at least to give the principles they are teaching within their proper context.

That is not true. If it were he would not have created them. You are attributing evil to a good God. He knew what they would choose but did not force them to choose evil and thus could not reject them until they actually did reject Him in time.

If I set a trap for my child to fail, then I know he is going to fail. But I cannot judge him until he does fail. Maybe he will surprise me because I am only human. But I still have to wait for the action to happen. It is only just. Your statement attacks the justice of God, one of his primary attributes.

No. First we use the word "purpose" as it relates to God, differently than as it relates to man. To speak of the "divine purposes" of God is different than one of the purposes of man. Your use of the word is more similar to the word "decree." God purposed or decreed in eternity past. This is the Calvinistic notion of the decrees of God that 90% of the population are damned to hell and the elect make up the 10% that have a ticket to heaven. That was decreed or purposed from the beginning.
But that was not God's purpose from the beginning. His will in this aspect was that all men should be saved. He did not decree that all men would not be saved. He did not judge them before they rejected Him. He waited in time. Jesus gave Judas Iscariot every opportunity to repent.

That simply is a poetic statement speaking of the power of God. He is all powerful. The verse is not stating one whit of the will of God. [/quote]
Let's look at it again:

Those whom His Son redeemed were to follow the same rules and commandments He laid down for national Israel, and IF they follow those rules and commandments, the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't, the TIMELY results of disobedience will be the natural results of cursings.

Those are your words. "If the redeemed follow the same rules..., and IF they follow those rules...the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't...the natural results of cursings."
1. A loss of salvation--cursings.
2. Following the rules--works salvation.
--The redeemed must follow the rules in order to avoid the natural results of cursings. The natural results of the curse under the law is eternal separation from God.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
--Cursed is everyone that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
From death to life, if you but sin just one time in your life, you are cursed--cursed for all eternity. There is no salvation under the law. The law condemns. It cannot save. Yet you say we must keep the same law as in the OT. Ridiculous.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
--Notice the emphasis here is on faith, not grace. We are justified by faith. It is not the law but faith that justifies.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
--Christ was made a curse for us. We don't receive cursings because Christ was made a curse for us. It is Christ who redeemed us from the curse of the law.

As you can see I quoted your exact words. You don't understand OT law, NT grace, or faith as it seems.

I quoted you word for word. I have refuted your stand through Scripture.

Scripture taken out of context.
He is writing to believers, the Thessalonian believers to be precise. Yes, believers in Christ do have "works of faith." We need to live our lives by faith. That wasn't the topic in question was it. The topic was, and still is, salvation. Faith in Christ is not a work. Tell me, what will you pay me for my faith? Can I sell it to you? Can I use my faith to work for you?
Does all of that make any sense to you? It shouldn't because faith is not a work. As I previously pointed out through Scripture, faith and works are opposed to each other.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/FONT]
--In the grand scheme of grace it is faith that justifies not works. Faith is opposed to works. It is not a work.

There is only one kind of salvation. It is a gift from God received by faith in time.
[FONT=&quot]Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/FONT]

You have a warped view of salvation.
When I give a gift to my child at her birthday or at Christmas or at any time, she is not bribed in any way whatsoever. She simply receives it out of my hand in faith. What faith? In faith that a loving father would never give his daughter anything that would harm her, but always something that would please her.

Jesus himself used the same illustration:
[FONT=&quot]Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/FONT]
--Was Jesus teaching bribery? Was Jesus saying that a gift is earned?
Or are you inferring that Jesus is deceptive because he doesn't agree with you?

This statement of Jesus:
[FONT=&quot]how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/FONT]
It goes directly against everything you just posted.
Salvation is a gift to be received by faith.

Certainly not me.

 

You are the one claiming that eternal salvation is all there is to salvation by grace not me or any Biblical writers as they all contradict that notion. According to ytour theory God could have nuked the world at the cross and all would have been saved by grace according to your idea of ETERNAL SALVATION. According to your idea eternal salvation applied in time is nothing but works and therefore salvation by grace has nothing to do with what happens in time but only in eternity. So according to your theory God could have nuked the world at the cross and it would not have affected the elect one bit, as they were already saved eternally.

YOur argument here assumes your position is correct when it is not. It would be a duplication if your theory was correct. However, your theory is not correct. The eternal purpose of God SAVES NNE except by God implementing it in time and space and that is precisely why God said all that he had purposed "I WILL ALSO DO IT" meaning it never had been done until it actually occurs in time and space. The eternal purpose is "UNTO" salvation in time (2 Thes. 2:13-14). The Great Commission is carrying out in time what God purposed in eternity and that is precisely and literally what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. That is precisely and literally what Ephesians 1:4-13 says.

Does not the Bible say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8)???? If that were LITERALLY true then why come down and go to the cross in time and space? According to your logic is not that simply DUPLICATING what has already been done???????.

That is what Jesus says verbatim in John 6:37-39, and 44, all you have to do is read English. He says that "OF ALL" the Father gave "shall come to me" or does that me something else? He says ALL GIVEN equals ALL WHO COME, that leaves ZERO that did not come to Christ in faith and coming to Christ in faith is the subject in direct contrast to those in the context who do not come to Christ in faith (Jn. 6:36). He says NO MAN can come to him except first the Father draw them, which means since "ALL" given to him do in fact 'come to me" then that "ALL" had to first be drawn by the Father. Thus, the ability to savingly believe in Christ or coming to Christ by faith is the work of God and the context proves it is the work of God alone, as those who did not believe in Jn. 6:64 were not drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:65). That is simple English with total clarity without any amibiguous language! You simply don't believe it.

 

Again your opinion....be careful brother Mark....

 

No, that is not my opinion. The idea that salvation in time is works is repeatedly addressed throughout the Scriptures and condemned as "another gospel."

The idea that God's purpose can be separated from God's implementation of that plan is irrational as well as unbiblical and directly contradicted by God Himself in Isaiah 46:10-11. Neither PB or you have been able to address this text which clearly and unambiguously repudiates the whole notion that salvation in eternity is a different kind of salvation then salvation in time.

 

This is the same kind of rationale that would argue that the archetects blue print is one kind of house while the house built according to that blue print is another kind of house. The only difference is between purpose and reality but it is the very same house. That is precisely what God says in Isaiah 46:10-11 that what he had purposed in eternity past IS EXACTLY what "I shall also DO IT" - no ambiguity here, but a clear and decisive statement of fact.

 

Although man has natural faith, what he does not have and cannot exercise due to his fallen nature is justifying faith (Rom. 8:7;Jn. 6:44 "no man CAN come to me" this speaks of natural ability - zero - thus God must first work - draw - before any man can come - therefore faith is the consequence of a necessary preceding work of God drawing first).

Justifying faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29). He is not sayiing that this is a work they can do for God but the very opposite! They were incapable of believing in him (Jn. 6:30-36) regardless of the miraculous works and words provided by God to them (Jn. 6:30-36). That is precisely why coming to Christ is first contingent upon first being "given" by the Father (Jn. 6:37-40). That is precisely why coming to Christ is first contingent upon first being drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:44). Coming to Christ by faith IS THE WORK OF GOD. That is precisely why unbelievers (Jn. 6:64) remain in unbelief because the Father has never drawn them (Jn. 6:65). Jesus is both the "author" and "finisher" of our faith. Justification is "of faith that it might be BY GRACE" (Rom. 4:16) as "BY GRACE ....through faith" we are saved (Eph. 2:8) which is "NOT OF WORKS" (v. 9) and Paul is grammatically referring to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith". We must FIRST be "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" that follow but do not precede this creative work of God. Hence, if faith is regarded as a "good work" it would only follow this creative work of God (quickening) rather than precede it. The grace of God that saves is "through faith" and "not of works" thus it is "of faith that it might by by grace" (Rom. 4:16).

However, what you and arminians are claiming is that Romans 4:16 should read "it is of faith that it might by works" but that is not what it says. It is "of faith" referring contextually to receiving the promise of inheritance (vv. 13-15) that it might be "by grace" instead of by the works of the law (vv. 13-15). Faith is directly contrasted to the works of the law in Romans 4:13-16 and classified not with the "works" of the law but "by grace."

So Arminians and PB's are totally incorrect when they claim that justifying faith" is a work of man - that is false. Just as repentance must be "granted" (Acts 11:17) so must faith be granted AS GOSPEL FAITH IS INSEPARABLE FROM GOSPEL REPENTANCE.

 

VERY CLEAR:thumbs::thumbs:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


What was planned in eternity unfolds over time...not as distinct but planned to happen in time....redemption actually happens in time:thumbs::wavey:Using the God ordained means.