my initial post on gospel/eternal salvation....

[The Biblicist]

we're still in a works based economy of salvation ? NOW ?

There NEVER was a works basis salvation!!!! Where do you get that idea? The model from Genesis to Revelation is Abraham (Rom. 4; Gal. 3:6-8) and I believe Abraham lived prior to Moses and prior to the cross.

 

[pinoybaptist]

There NEVER was a works basis salvation!!!! Where do you get that idea?

from you !!
who else ???
:laugh:
mitchell ain' here.
ain' no ghost here, either.

 

[The Biblicist]

from you !!
who else ???
:laugh:
mitchell ain' here.
ain' no ghost here, either.

For example???? The example of Abraham precedes Moses and the cross and it is the model for "all who believe" and it is all of grace!

 

[pinoybaptist]

For example???? The example of Abraham precedes Moses and the cross and it is the model for "all who believe" and it is all of grace!

okay, we're going nowhere here, and I am about to derail my own thread.:laugh::laugh:

have you READ and I mean READ the post and the link to it before shooting off how we PB's are, in so many words according to you, desecrating the sacredness of the salvation authored by Christ ?

take your time, I need to go somewhere and will be back in 10 or 15.

 

[The Biblicist]

okay, we're going nowhere here, and I am about to derail my own thread.:laugh::laugh:

have you READ and I mean READ the post and the link to it before shooting off how we PB's are, in so many words according to you, desecrating the sacredness of the salvation authored by Christ ?

take your time, I need to go somewhere and will be back in 10 or 15.

I directly opposed your op about TWO types of Salvation, so I am not off track. In return you accused me of believing in works for salvation but when challenged to provide that evidence you have none! Again, Isaiah 46:10-11 is God speaking about his eternal purpose and His execution of that purpose in time. He does not divide it into TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF SALVATION but speaks of it as ONE, the same one purposed is the same one implemented.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I directly opposed your op about TWO types of Salvation, so I am not off track.

Yes, you are.
WAY OFF TRACK.
You began your opposition by insinuating that we are heretics who are trying to disgrace the grace of God in salvation.

And all the scripture you have been providing to oppose the concept of timely or gospel salvation in scripture were NEVER addressed to all humanity. They were addressed DIRECTLY, and SPECIFICALLY,to Israel, and by extension, a church: REDEEMED, SAVED, REGENERATE INDIVIDUALS OR GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS.

I have stated that in most of Paul's letters he invariably moved from discussing DOCTRINE (among which is ETERNAL salvation) to PRACTICE (which is where the concept of Gospel salvation is derived from).

Now, DISPUTE THAT instead of your knee-jerk reaction of throwing everyone who does not see the Bible as you do into the heap of heretics.

This is what I am accusing you of now: dishonesty.

YOU DID NOT READ THE OP, but you made as if you did, that is dishonest, I know because if you did you would know that among other things, the PB elder, whom I have quoted, as well as the elders he quoted, stated:

When salvation refers to what God does for man without action on his part, and by the meritorious work of Christ, they know and realize that it refers to salvation in its highest order; preparing one to live with God in glory after death.


DISPUTE THAT !

When salvation is mentioned in connection with the acts of men; or man is to perform some action to bring about a better situation for himself, they know it is to be to the child of God (one freed from the guilt of sin), and refers to a timely deliverance, or something that is for man's benefit while he lives here in the world."

DISPUTE THAT !!

But, no, you can't.
Because your contempt is showing in your "Christian" attitude towards brethren who do not deny the deity and humanity of Christ, who will not baptize unbelievers as you wouldn't, who plea the blood of Christ as their redemption, who have not denied the trinity in any way, who have not denied, but, rather emphasize that Gospel living is demanded of a truly born again child of God, who have never denied the virgin birth of Christ, nor his atoning death, nor His resurrection, nor His coming again, nor His now reigning in the kingdom of His people's hearts.

Show where we have denied any of the above that makes us deserving of your contempt that anything we say is immediately, without investigation, labeled through insinuation and direct accusation by YOU AND YOURS as heretical.

In return you accused me of believing in works for salvation but when challenged to provide that evidence you have none!

I have NOT ACCUSED YOU OF ANYTHING. I asked, because that is what I gather from your long-winded discussion of an otherwise out of context scripture you quoted.
see post # 20 for yourself, wherever did I accuse you of anything.
It is Scripture warning national israel of their idolatry !!
And the Apostle Paul has revealed what that eternal purpose is; HIS CHURCH and the bringing in of the Gentiles !!!
NEWSFLASH !!!!
READ ALL ABOUT IT:

Paul reveals God's eternal purpose hid in Christ !! EXTRA ! EXTRA !, read all about it. PAUL REVEALS GOD'S ETERNAL PURPOSE, CHAPTER 3, VERSES 1-11 IN HIS LETTER TO THE EPHESIANS. extra!! extra!!:

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[pinoybaptist]

more on gospel, or timely salvation....

more from the article by Elder David Montgomery

Elder Biggs did use the expression "time salvation" in his writings. In the article "Life and Death Set Before Them”, he writes, "Israel of old did not obey the Law of Moses in order to be delivered, or saved from Egyptian bondage, but to enjoy the land of Canaan. Their happiness and time salvation depended upon their keeping the commands of God, and so it is under the Gospel dispensation. We are not required to obey the Gospel in order to get eternal life, but to enjoy the fruits of it, must obey. God gives us eternal life, and now by the Gospel, tells us how we should live."

Relevant Scriptures:

Deuteronomy 5:29 - O that there were such an heart in them , that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deuteronomy 11:13 - And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deuteronomy 11: 26-28
Behold , I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known .

Romans 6:11-13 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Elder Potter wrote about the Gospel, viz., "It is a proclamation of salvation through Christ.

One grand reason why men make so many mistakes as to the object of preaching the Gospel, is because they fail to arrive at a proper conclusion at what it is. The primary objective of the Gospel is to encourage and comfort the children of God: and they derive comfort from what it proclaims to them, not what it proposes to them on conditions".

Relevant Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand ;

By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Philippians 3:20 - For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10: 1 - 11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, you are.
WAY OFF TRACK.
You began your opposition by insinuating that we are heretics who are trying to disgrace the grace of God in salvation.

Since there are no other groups of Baptists that hold to Eternal Salvation as different from Time Salvation,

This is the summary of your OP and the rest simply attempts to defend it.

If simply disagreeing there is a DOUBLE Salvation is insinuating you are heretical, then so be it! You are clearly teaching two different salvations and the Bible does not teach any such thing. You can splice it anyway you please but Salvation is ONE not TWO.

Yes, and you did accuse me of teaching works and here are your words:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist View Post
There NEVER was a works basis salvation!!!! Where do you get that idea?
from you !!
who else ???

mitchell ain' here.
ain' no ghost here, either. - PB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Since there are no other groups of Baptists that hold to Eternal Salvation as different from Time Salvation,

What, do you know of any other group of Baptists that hold to eternal salvation as different from time salvation ?

This is the summary of your OP and the rest simply attempts to defend it.

There are no attempts to simply defend it.
I was posting why we believe what we do about it.
You can attack it all you want, all your attacks will bounce off because what you hold on to is what was drilled into you by seminary professors who in return was taught by others who got drilled and fed the same errors.

If simply disagreeing there is a DOUBLE Salvation is insinuating you are heretical, then so be it!

Now, at last you're being honest.

You are clearly teaching two different salvations and the Bible does not teach any such thing. You can splice it anyway you please but Salvation is ONE not TWO.

Call it one, call it two, the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches GOSPEL SALVATION is different in purpose, results, and character than ETERNAL salvation.

Yes, and you did accuse me of teaching works and here are your words:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist View Post
There NEVER was a works basis salvation!!!! Where do you get that idea?
from you !!
who else ???

mitchell ain' here.
ain' no ghost here, either. - PB

you ASKED, I answered your question.
WHERE is the accusation, other than in your warped mind ?

Looks like you're running out of ammo, dude.
you are STILL DISHONEST in this discussion.
Your sole intent is to CONVICT without review of evidence.
You have not read, nor contradicted, anything and everything that was posted and quoted, convincingly.
And here's why:

YOUR PRIDE WON'T ALLOW YOU TO SWALLOW THAT YOU HAVE NO SHARE OF THE GLORY IN THE ETERNAL SALVATION OF GOD'S PEOPLE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS. ALL GLORY IS GOD'S. YOU ARE JUST A LABORER PAID EQUAL WAGE WITH ALL THOSE BEFORE YOU, AND ALL THOSE AFTER YOU.

 

[The Biblicist]

What, do you know of any other group of Baptists that hold to eternal salvation as different from time salvation ?

I didn't dispute that. It is only more evidence of a false doctrine.

There is but ONE SALVATION purposed in eternity past and implemented in time and Isaiah 46:10-11 demonstrates that, of which you have yet no response. Let's drop the personal attacks. I have made no attack on your person, I have simply attacked your position. Stop your silly personal accusations and deal with the issues.

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't dispute that. It is only more evidence of a false doctrine.

There is but ONE SALVATION purposed in eternity past and implemented in time and Isaiah 46:10-11 demonstrates that, of which you have yet no response. Let's drop the personal attacks. I have made no attack on your person, I have simply attacked your position. Stop your silly personal accusations and deal with the issues.

In addition, there are none chosen unto salvation before the world that do not come to Christ in repentance and faith in the gospel in time (Jn. 6:37-40; 2 Thes. 2:13). The Eternal purpose of redemption is inclusive of all the means as well as the end.

 

[Iconoclast]

In addition, there are none chosen unto salvation before the world that do not come to Christ in repentance and faith in the gospel in time (Jn. 6:37-40; 2 Thes. 2:13). The Eternal purpose of redemption is inclusive of all the means as well as the end.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

There is only one salvation not two. That salvation is in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, in his atoning sacrifice on the cross. There is no other, not in eternity past, not anywhere. It was provided on the cross 2,000 years ago.

History started with creation, our history with the creation of Adam and Eve. All of OT history looks to the cross. All history since the cross looks back to the cross. The cross is central to our history. History does not begin in eternity past or before the foundations of the world. Therein is your error. You are starting from the wrong place in history.

First "faith" is not a work. Though salvation is all of God, to be received of man by faith, faith in and of itself is not a work. Jesus defined that in John 6:29 defining a work, or the works that the Jews could do to have eternal life. His answer was a bit sarcastic:
[FONT=&quot]John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/FONT]
--The only "work" they could do was "have faith" or believe, which was not a work at all.

Paul clarified it even more:
[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/FONT]
--Abraham was not justified by his works, but rather by faith.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/FONT]
--Faith is not a work. Justification comes through faith and faith alone. That is quite evident in this passage. It is opposed to works. It is not a work.

Salvation is all of God to be received by faith. There is nothing that is done in eternity past that is done on the part of man, even on the part of "the elect." Nowhere does the Bible teach that. It is contrary to how Abraham was justified, and contrary to how man in general is justified.

It is contrary to the general teachings of Jesus before He went to the cross:
[FONT=&quot]John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/FONT]
--Eternal life was not given in eternity past but at that time which they believed in Christ. At that point in history Jesus said they have or were given everlasting life, would not come into condemnation, and were passed from death into life. All of that happened the moment that they put their faith in Christ.

Faith is not works. It is Christ that saves. No one is saved in eternity past. Christ speaks of his omniscience and that is all. Salvation is given in time. I was given eternal life the moment I believed, not in eternity past.
Scripture after scripture attests to this fact. To believe otherwise is to deny the scriptures.

The fact is we don't know what happened in eternity past; what God decreed. "The secret things belong unto the Lord," and we must be content with that. Gnosticism is declaring that one has a higher knowledge than the Word reveals. Do you think that your beliefs may border on that?

Look to the cross and start from there.
From there you will find the Great Commission which is still applicable to us today. It is needful to go and find those "whom God has ordained to eternal life." They will not come to eternal life without hearing the gospel first. You cannot read God's mind. You cannot conclude that "if I don't go and that person does not get saved, he really wasn't ordained in the first place."
That is false.
Perhaps, in heaven, before the judgment seat of Christ, you will find that the blood of those that you did not share the gospel with will be on your hands and the Lord will find you guilty of those lost souls. Have you considered that possibility?
We are witnesses, ambassadors, watchmen, with a duty to warn others of the terrible judgment to come. Will their blood be upon our hands if we fail to warn the wicked from their ways, if we fail to get the gospel out to all the nations as the Lord commanded us:

[FONT=&quot]Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.[/FONT]

 

[pinoybaptist]

I didn't dispute that. It is only more evidence of a false doctrine.

There are Scriptures I have posted supporting the concept of time salvation as being different from eternal salvation. You ignored every last one of them.

There is but ONE SALVATION purposed in eternity past and implemented in time

That is eternal salvation of which God needs no help from you, me, or anyone else. We were not there when He covenanted with Himself, neither were we there when He wrote the book of life.

and Isaiah 46:10-11 demonstrates that, of which you have yet no response.

I have addressed your Scripture with Scripture and you ignored it.
Perhaps the fault is in my not specifying which one it was, but you can go back (if you do I'll be very surprised) to post #26 and my reference to Ephesians 3: 1-11.

Let's drop the personal attacks. I have made no attack on your person, I have simply attacked your position. Stop your silly personal accusations and deal with the issues.

Really ?
What is it with you guys ? you Calvinists ?
you suggest someone is creating false accusations, which is an attack on the integrity of another and you have no comprehension of what you did at all ?
You always have to be the victims of insults, never the one so much at hinting at insulting the person or integrity of another ?
you accused me of saying you are teaching works when all I did was ask a simple question !!!
That is an attack on my personal character.
If I can't intelligently debate the one I'm debating with, I will simply pull out, and not resort to accusing him of anything.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Scripture after Scripture, all throughout this thread, "Biblicist".
You ignored every one of them, and instead focused on your efforts to make Primitive Baptists look like heretics.
And you still haven't answered this point from post # 26:

Because your contempt is showing in your "Christian" attitude towards brethren who do not deny the deity and humanity of Christ, who will not baptize unbelievers as you wouldn't, who plea the blood of Christ as their redemption, who have not denied the trinity in any way, who have not denied, but, rather emphasize that Gospel living is demanded of a truly born again child of God, who have never denied the virgin birth of Christ, nor his atoning death, nor His resurrection, nor His coming again, nor His now reigning in the kingdom of His people's hearts.

Show where we have denied any of the above that makes us deserving of your contempt that anything we say is immediately, without investigation, labeled through insinuation and direct accusation by YOU AND YOURS as heretical.

nah.
betcha y'all can't.
not one of you, Calvinist or otherwise.
so you'll just choose to ignore it.
in fact you'll ignore post # 27 as well, giving relevant scriptures that background the statements of the PB elder.
and the reason is because any attempt to discredit it will simply make you look foolish.
and you know it, too.

 

[pinoybaptist]

More from the article on Time Salvation, by Elder David Montgomery:

Part 3: What Time Salvation is NOT.

1. An excuse to sin - It could not be as it would violate Romans 6:1.

2. A convenient way to get our family and friends into heaven – Sappy nonsense.

3. Hyper-Calvinism - Theological twaddle. Petting your dog is not an evidence of eternal life in a person. Affection toward the animal kingdom is NOT time salvation.

4. Hollow Logism - A ridiculous doctrinal tenant. I strongly believe that there is a change in the elect upon their second birth. Examples - Saul of Tarsus, the thief on the cross.

5. A new doctrine - It is as old as the Bible because it is taught in the Bible. Scriptural proof as follows:

• 1Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

• Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

• Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

• Ro 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

• Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

• Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

• 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

• 1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

• 2 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOW SAVE US (emphasis mine)...

For brevity, I did not copy all Scriptures.
It is wortwhile to note though, that time salvation involves KNOWLEDGE of Scriptures, instructions in the gospel, and faithful trust in the Savior, all of which the lack does not affect the salvation wrought by the Savior on the cross, which benefits are eternal rather than timely, except for "perishing" here in time, in the sense that the inherent blessings and protection of obedience is lost, as well as the "joy of fellowship with God and the saints".

 

[The Biblicist]

more from the article by Elder David Montgomery



Relevant Scriptures:

Deuteronomy 5:29 - O that there were such an heart in them , that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deuteronomy 11:13 - And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deuteronomy 11: 26-28
Behold , I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known .

Romans 6:11-13 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

First, these scriptures in regard to keeping the commandments of God are designed by God to lead them to Christ as none can be justified by keeping the law. If they could keep the law, then verily life could be obtained by law keeping, but they can't due to the scripture first quoted (Deut. 5:29). The New Tesatment reveals that the only way of true salvation was faith in Christ (Acts 10:43).

It appears by your use of these scriptures concerning God's laws, you really believe salvation could have been acquired by law keeping. Surely that is not your intent is it? These scriptures do not prove your point at all.

Relevant Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand ;

By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Philippians 3:20 - For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10: 1 - 11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Neither do these scriptures prove your point. Salvation has been the same before and after the cross (Acts 10:43; Acts 4:12) and Abraham is the example of that one way of salvation and he existed before Moses or the cross. This muddle of scriptures only proves you are confused at best.

 

[The Biblicist]

There are Scriptures I have posted supporting the concept of time salvation as being different from eternal salvation. You ignored every last one of them.

I ignored them because they are muddle of confusion and really have no reference at all to two different types of salvation.

That is eternal salvation of which God needs no help from you, me, or anyone else. We were not there when He covenanted with Himself, neither were we there when He wrote the book of life.

Quite true, but that does not prove what He purpose was not also what He "also did" in time. I am not opposing grace from beginning to end. You seem to think if God's purpose of grace is merely applied to man in time that that is another salvation and of works. However, the model for "all who are of faith" repudiates that inference as He was justified by grace "without works" and that was God applying His eternal purpose of grace in time.

I have addressed your Scripture with Scripture and you ignored it.

That is called PITTING scripture against scripture rather than addressing the text at all. You have not addressed that text at all.

Perhaps the fault is in my not specifying which one it was, but you can go back (if you do I'll be very surprised) to post #26 and my reference to Ephesians 3: 1-11.

Again, you seem to imagine that mere application or carrying out of God's purpose of grace in time is some other kind of salvation. It is not.

Really ?
What is it with you guys ? you Calvinists ?
you suggest someone is creating false accusations, which is an attack on the integrity of another and you have no comprehension of what you did at all ?
You always have to be the victims of insults, never the one so much at hinting at insulting the person or integrity of another ?
you accused me of saying you are teaching works when all I did was ask a simple question !!!
That is an attack on my personal character.
If I can't intelligently debate the one I'm debating with, I will simply pull out, and not resort to accusing him of anything.

By your definition no one could dare challenge your position without personally attacking you? That is rediculous! If challenging your position is wrong then why have you even come on this forum? Don't you realize it is a "debate" forum??? Stop the DIRECT personal attacks and simply defend your position in order to prove the objections are wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

More from the article on Time Salvation, by Elder David Montgomery:



For brevity, I did not copy all Scriptures.
It is wortwhile to note though, that time salvation involves KNOWLEDGE of Scriptures, instructions in the gospel, and faithful trust in the Savior, all of which the lack does not affect the salvation wrought by the Savior on the cross, which benefits are eternal rather than timely, except for "perishing" here in time, in the sense that the inherent blessings and protection of obedience is lost, as well as the "joy of fellowship with God and the saints".

The elective purpose of God is "UNTO" salvation in time and space (2 Thes. 2:13-14). Eternal salvation is God's purpose to save in time and space through "sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." What you are teaching is simply confusion and misapplication of God's Word. Every single person chosen in eternity past comes to Christ by repentance and faith (Jn. 6:37-39). ALL not some, of which the Father gave to Christ in eternity past, ALL come to Christ in faith, ALL are drawn and NONE fail to come to Christ in faith. The eternal purpose of God is inclusive of His people and the means to attain the end of salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Because your contempt is showing in your "Christian" attitude towards brethren who do not deny the deity and humanity of Christ, who will not baptize unbelievers as you wouldn't, who plea the blood of Christ as their redemption, who have not denied the trinity in any way, who have not denied, but, rather emphasize that Gospel living is demanded of a truly born again child of God, who have never denied the virgin birth of Christ, nor his atoning death, nor His resurrection, nor His coming again, nor His now reigning in the kingdom of His people's hearts.

Show where we have denied any of the above that makes us deserving of your contempt that anything we say is immediately, without investigation, labeled through insinuation and direct accusation by YOU AND YOURS as heretical.[/B]

Your list is incomplete. There are other equally important issues if you deny is worthy of censure and rebuke. For example, to suggest there are two different Salvations is just as heretical as to suggest there are two different gospels or two different Savior's. Indeed, Paul says if anyone preaches "another gospel" they are to be regarded as "accursed." Peter says that there is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved and so if anyone suggested another savior before or after the cross that would be heretical. Likewise, the idea that God is a schizophrenic and purposed one kind of salvation but implemented another kind is heretical.