my initial post on gospel/eternal salvation....

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your list is incomplete. There are other equally important issues if you deny is worthy of censure and rebuke. For example, to suggest there are two different Salvations is just as heretical as to suggest there are two different gospels or two different Savior's. Indeed, Paul says if anyone preaches "another gospel" they are to be regarded as "accursed." Peter says that there is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved and so if anyone suggested another savior before or after the cross that would be heretical. Likewise, the idea that God is a schizophrenic and purposed one kind of salvation but implemented another kind is heretical.

Oh please....you seem to enjoy throwing accusatory term around .....that's not debate, its name calling.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I ignored them because they are muddle of confusion and really have no reference at all to two different types of salvation.

no. you ignored them because they are irrefutable scriptures that IF the child of God submits himself to the power of Christ ALREADY in him and does what is gospelly right, then he will be gospelly saved, IN TIME.

Quite true, but that does not prove what He purpose was not also what He "also did" in time. I am not opposing grace from beginning to end. You seem to think if God's purpose of grace is merely applied to man in time that that is another salvation and of works.

What God purposed in eternity was the redemption of ALL His people, whom He foreknew and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, whom He called, whom He justified, and whom He glorified. Jew or Gentile, gathered together with Him, worshipping Him instead of idols here IN TIME as Israel did in the Isaiah scripture you quoted and to which I replied with Scripture.

Those whom His Son redeemed were to follow the same rules and commandments He laid down for national Israel, and IF they follow those rules and commandments, the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't, the TIMELY results of disobedience will be the natural results of cursings.

However, the model for "all who are of faith" repudiates that inference as He was justified by grace "without works" and that was God applying His eternal purpose of grace in time.

And herein is another bump in the road for us, so to speak.
To be "of faith" is not to be justified by grace "without works".
Faith is works, albeit a good work, and if you are to be justified by your faith, then it is no more of grace.
Grace is FREE and INDEPENDENT of any works from any of God's elect, it is a GIFT (as everybody here says but then immediately converts into a reward by requiring faith), GIVEN FREE to His people FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Paul himself said so to Timothy, which you or somebody made light of by saying it is but a pastoral letter. Here it is again for your benefit:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

That is called PITTING scripture against scripture......

that is again an insinuation against my personal integrity, but seeing as we both have taken deep breaths already, I will let it pass, with a word of caution.....choose your words carefully because I value my integrity, it is the ony thing I have in this world. I have no problem apologizing but equally have no problem getting into a mess with those who cannot prove I did wrong.

..........rather than addressing the text at all. You have not addressed that text at all.

I asked Paul to address it for you, since he was the one who had a direct revelation from God, not me. I answered you with Scripture because I understand (as perhaps you do) that the New Testament is the substance of the Old Testament (I trust I used the correct phrases).
You ignored the answer, because you thought you had me backed into a corner, so you're going for the kill.

Again, you seem to imagine that mere application or carrying out of God's purpose of grace in time is some other kind of salvation. It is not.

You will have to clear that out for me. what do you mean when you say "God's purpose of grace in time".

By your definition no one could dare challenge your position without personally attacking you?
That is rediculous! If challenging your position is wrong then why have you even come on this forum? Don't you realize it is a "debate" forum???

oh, okay, so what you are saying is you are unable to engage in a debate without "wrong attribution", making something of nothing (remember ? I simply asked you if we were still under the law, in so many words), and without personally attacking anyone ? (your words, up there in the quote). And I know, not simply realize this is a debate forum, and it is supposedly a Christian forum, participated in by blood bought individuals calling Christ their Savior, and instructed to speak with grace in their lips, but from my years in this board I have learned by experience it is not so, therefore have not participated much in these "squabbles" unless I feel personally my beliefs are being alluded to, and when I do participate, I don't pull punches.

Stop the DIRECT personal attacks and simply defend your position in order to prove the objections are wrong.

That's the difference between you and myself.
You insinuate, you infer and you have the ability to pretend to be graceful by nicely calling somebody a "liar" or a SOB.
I directly call one a "liar", or a SOB.
And you're not about to change that.
or anybody else for that matter, save God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

First, these scriptures in regard to keeping the commandments of God are designed by God to lead them to Christ as none can be justified by keeping the law. If they could keep the law, then verily life could be obtained by law keeping, but they can't due to the scripture first quoted (Deut. 5:29). The New Tesatment reveals that the only way of true salvation was faith in Christ (Acts 10:43).

If you have done a little programming, you are likely familiar with the "conditional" statements preceded by "if", "then", else.
God is talking to NATIONAL Israel which He created here in time. NATIONAL Israel does not represent His dealings with all humankind, it represents His dealings with NATIONAL Israel and them only, and how he dealt with them He faithfully recorded in what we now call The Bible, so that, when that which is complete (I suppose you conventionally believe this refers to Scripture) is come, then those who are to benefit by them are to be just that, benefited, HERE IN TIME.

You want Scripture ?

Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11 - Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

It appears by your use of these scriptures concerning God's laws, you really believe salvation could have been acquired by law keeping. Surely that is not your intent is it? These scriptures do not prove your point at all.

Apparently, you have really not been reading anything at all. Reading with understanding, I mean.
And neither are you familiar with what I believe about eternal salvation.

Neither do these scriptures prove your point. Salvation has been the same before and after the cross (Acts 10:43; Acts 4:12) and Abraham is the example of that one way of salvation and he existed before Moses or the cross. This muddle of scriptures only proves you are confused at best.

Your opinion.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The elective purpose of God is "UNTO" salvation in time and space (2 Thes. 2:13-14). Eternal salvation is God's purpose to save in time and space through "sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." What you are teaching is simply confusion and misapplication of God's Word.

Again, you are incorrectly dividing the word by lumping everything into one jolly eternal salvation.
You need to correctly put "eternity" where it belongs, "grace" where it belongs, "blessings in time" where it belongs.
If eternal salvation is all there is to it, then,( and I've asked this maybe to you or another "Calvinist"}, WHY didn't He just nuke this world after the cross, and be done with it and be content with whoever He will have with Him in heaven at that time ?

If Jesus Christ, and Him alone, was the Annointed Savior of and for His people, and if, as you and I will probably agree, He did it all well, then WHY duplicate what He has done by sending out His apostles under what you call "The Great Commission" ?

I answered these questions myself where I posted them, but it was ignored, and not discussed. Oh, well, what can I say, right ? After all, I'm just a country boy preacher with no "Reverend" or "Doctor of Theology" to my name.

Every single person chosen in eternity past comes to Christ by repentance and faith (Jn. 6:37-39).

False, and True. But discussing that will derail this thread from its original premise: TIME SALVATION.

ALL not some, of which the Father gave to Christ in eternity past, ALL come to Christ in faith, ALL are drawn and NONE fail to come to Christ in faith. The eternal purpose of God is inclusive of His people and the means to attain the end of salvation.

That is what the seminaries teach, that is what the seminary graduates teach, that is what the Sunday School teachers teach, but that is not what the Bible suggests.
Again, you can challenge me in another thread.
you, not me challenging you, because you are the one hurling all these insinuations about our doctrines being heretical.

 

[DHK]

What God purposed in eternity was the redemption of ALL His people, whom He foreknew and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, whom He called, whom He justified, and whom He glorified. Jew or Gentile, gathered together with Him, worshipping Him instead of idols here IN TIME as Israel did in the Isaiah scripture you quoted and to which I replied with Scripture.

God is not WILLING that any should perish.
It is God's will that ALL should be saved.
But God knew from the beginning that all would not be saved, and, in fact, the majority would of their own will reject Him. That rejection was not what "He purposed" in eternity, though he knew it would happen. What he purposed in eternity was to send His Son to pay the penalty for our sins.

Those whom His Son redeemed were to follow the same rules and commandments He laid down for national Israel, and IF they follow those rules and commandments, the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't, the TIMELY results of disobedience will be the natural results of cursings.

This is a denial of eternal security.
It is a belief in works salvation. We are not saved by following rules. We do not keep our salvation by following rules. We do not lose our salvation if we fail to keep the rules.

And herein is another bump in the road for us, so to speak.
To be "of faith" is not to be justified by grace "without works".
Faith is works, albeit a good work, and if you are to be justified by your faith, then it is no more of grace.

I have already demonstrated through scripture that faith is not works or a work. The scriptures are very clear on this. Faith and works are opposed to each other. Whatever happened to sola fide?

Grace is FREE and INDEPENDENT of any works from any of God's elect, it is a GIFT (as everybody here says but then immediately converts into a reward by requiring faith), GIVEN FREE to His people FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Paul himself said so to Timothy, which you or somebody made light of by saying it is but a pastoral letter. Here it is again for your benefit:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

Scripture taken out of context.
Salvation itself is a gift, given free to all that call upon Him in faith. It is provided by grace. It is given in time not before the foundation of the world. That is not what that verse teaches. You mishandle the Word of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Your list is incomplete. There are other equally important issues if you deny is worthy of censure and rebuke.
For example, to suggest there are two different Salvations is just as heretical as to suggest there are two different gospels or two different Savior's.

Man, you're really "dense" up there.
I NEVER said there are two different gospels or two different Saviors.
There is one gospel.
The good news for the elect sinner that the gospel reaches that the God of eternity has stepped into time in the sinner's behalf and for the sinner's benefit, to seal with blood here in time what He purposed in Himself to do in eternity past, and He has a Name: Jesus Christ.
And He is The Only Begotten Son of God, and the Only Annointed Savior.
You happy now ?:laugh:

For your benefit, though, herein is the purpose why God didn't just nuke this world after the cross, not to mention the fact that because He loved you, as well, and knew exactly where, when, how, and to whom you will be born in this time world. In other words, He waited for you because your name is up there in His mind. And He's waiting for ALL THOSE WHOM HE ELECTED UNTO ETERNAL SALVATION TO LIVE IN GLORY WITH HIM, who will be born here in time, and then it's taps for the non-elect.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (HELLOOOO ????? IS 'THIS PRESENT WORLD' IN TIME, OR IS IT IN ETERNITY'):laugh:

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Indeed, Paul says if anyone preaches "another gospel" they are to be regarded as "accursed." Peter says that there is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved and so if anyone suggested another savior before or after the cross that would be heretical. Likewise, the idea that God is a schizophrenic and purposed one kind of salvation but implemented another kind is heretical.

Never did any of the above, so it's all in your befuddled mind.
The confusion is at your doorstep, not mine.

 

[pinoybaptist]

God is not WILLING that any should perish.
It is God's will that ALL should be saved.

At the end of this post, you said the Scripture I quoted was out of context.
I suppose you're aware yours is TOTALLY out of sync and context, as well ?

But God knew from the beginning that all would not be saved, and, in fact, the majority would of their own will reject Him.

Of course He did, and He already rejected them before they even did.

That rejection was not what "He purposed" in eternity, though he knew it would happen. What he purposed in eternity was to send His Son to pay the penalty for our sins.

Do not purpose and will go together ?

Daniel 4:35 =
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
If God's purpose was to save all mankind, He would've done so, and not all the will of mankind combined can stop Him.
Do you deny this ?

This is a denial of eternal security.

No. It is a misunderstanding of everything I have stated, at best, or a deliberate twisting of all that I have stated, at worst, and I sincerely hope it is the former.

It is a belief in works salvation. We are not saved by following rules. We do not keep our salvation by following rules. We do not lose our salvation if we fail to keep the rules.

True, in every point. And I have not stated we are saved (eternally) by following rules, or that we keep and lose our eternal salvation through rules.
Like I said, you have misunderstood everything, or twisted everything.

I have already demonstrated through scripture that faith is not works or a work. The scriptures are very clear on this. Faith and works are opposed to each other.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11 - Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Whatever happened to sola fide?

I have no idea. ask a Calvinist.

Scripture taken out of context.

Reallllyy ??

This from somebody who himself took a Scripture out of context.

Salvation itself is a gift,

Eternal salvation is a gift and will always be one, given by a loving God to those whom He foreknew, and whom He loved, before they knew Him, and loved Him.

given free to all that call upon Him in faith. It is provided by grace.

Two conflicting statements.
Picture God, holding gifts, and saying, I've got a gift here for you, if you'll take me by faith. If not, then I can't gift you.

If I take it, then I merit it, and it's no longer a gift. It's a prize I earned for my response.
kinda like Pavlov.
simple, straightforward, no ever-circling reasoning.

It is given in time not before the foundation of the world. That is not what that verse teaches. You mishandle the Word of God.

Now who's confused ?

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh please....you seem to enjoy throwing accusatory term around .....that's not debate, its name calling.

No one is called any name, so why make false accusations?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No one is called any name, so why make false accusations?

I recall the word heretical .....the implication is....:tear:

 

[The Biblicist]

And herein is another bump in the road for us, so to speak.
To be "of faith" is not to be justified by grace "without works".

Paul says it is "of faith that it may be BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16

Jesus says that faith is "the work of God" and the context proves this beyond doubt as only those FIRST GIVEN by the Father Come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:37-40) JUST as only those FIRST DRAWN by the Father can come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:44). Justifying faith is THE WORK OF GOD as none come but those given and drawn by the Father. All others who come to Christ come by false profession (Jn. 6:64-65).

Grace is FREE and INDEPENDENT of any works from any of God's elect, it is a GIFT (as everybody here says but then immediately converts into a reward by requiring faith), GIVEN FREE to His people FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Have you never read Philippians 2:13???????? Have you never read John 15:5b? Have you never read Romans 8:12-13? All good works produced in the life of a believer are produced by the grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit even to "will" as well as to "do" anything that is his good pleasure. YOU CAN DO NOTHING in your own power, it is ALL OF GRACE!

Paul himself said so to Timothy, which you or somebody made light of by saying it is but a pastoral letter. Here it is again for your benefit:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

You pit one aspect against another aspect of grace, and call one aspect grace while calling the other aspect works when it is by grace as well. Don't you know Paul said using the PRESENT TENSE "I am what I am BY THE GRACE OF GOD."

 

[The Biblicist]

I recall the word heretical .....the implication is....:tear:

It is the DOCTRINE that is heretical, whereas the word "heretic" refers to the person and yes, what he is teaching in my opinion is absolutely heretical even though he may be doing it sincerely and with personal integrity.

 

[The Biblicist]

If you have done a little programming, you are likely familiar with the "conditional" statements preceded by "if", "then", else.
God is talking to NATIONAL Israel which He created here in time. NATIONAL Israel does not represent His dealings with all humankind, it represents His dealings with NATIONAL Israel and them only, and how he dealt with them He faithfully recorded in what we now call The Bible, so that, when that which is complete (I suppose you conventionally believe this refers to Scripture) is come, then those who are to benefit by them are to be just that, benefited, HERE IN TIME.

You want Scripture ?

Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Corinthians 10:11 - Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

These scriptures DO NOT SAY "for our salvation" do they???? Why? Because our personal obedience is NEVER for salvation as that is justification by works which is clearly condemned by Paul as "another gospel."

The moral law is good, holy and righteous but we are not even capable of obeying it as children of God or have you not read Romans 7:14-25? Jesus said TO BELIEVERS - "without me ye CAN DO NOTHING." If we do anything at all that is pleasing to God it is because it is "God that worketh in us both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13 ALL OF GRACE!!!!

Salvation from eternity past to eternity future is ALL OF GRACE and none will be able to glory in front of God on judgement day about ANYTHING THEY DID, why? Because as Paul says,

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


There is no salvation by grace in eternity apart from salvation by grace in time - no such animal exists!

 

[DHK]

At the end of this post, you said the Scripture I quoted was out of context.
I suppose you're aware yours is TOTALLY out of sync and context, as well ?

No, I do my best to keep things in context, or at least to give the principles they are teaching within their proper context.

Of course He did, and He already rejected them before they even did.

That is not true. If it were he would not have created them. You are attributing evil to a good God. He knew what they would choose but did not force them to choose evil and thus could not reject them until they actually did reject Him in time.

If I set a trap for my child to fail, then I know he is going to fail. But I cannot judge him until he does fail. Maybe he will surprise me because I am only human. But I still have to wait for the action to happen. It is only just. Your statement attacks the justice of God, one of his primary attributes.

Do not purpose and will go together ?

No. First we use the word "purpose" as it relates to God, differently than as it relates to man. To speak of the "divine purposes" of God is different than one of the purposes of man. Your use of the word is more similar to the word "decree." God purposed or decreed in eternity past. This is the Calvinistic notion of the decrees of God that 90% of the population are damned to hell and the elect make up the 10% that have a ticket to heaven. That was decreed or purposed from the beginning.
But that was not God's purpose from the beginning. His will in this aspect was that all men should be saved. He did not decree that all men would not be saved. He did not judge them before they rejected Him. He waited in time. Jesus gave Judas Iscariot every opportunity to repent.

Daniel 4:35 =
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
If God's purpose was to save all mankind, He would've done so, and not all the will of mankind combined can stop Him.
Do you deny this ?

That simply is a poetic statement speaking of the power of God. He is all powerful. The verse is not stating one whit of the will of God. [/quote]
Let's look at it again:

Those whom His Son redeemed were to follow the same rules and commandments He laid down for national Israel, and IF they follow those rules and commandments, the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't, the TIMELY results of disobedience will be the natural results of cursings.

Those are your words. "If the redeemed follow the same rules..., and IF they follow those rules...the TIMELY results of obedience are blessings for them, and IF they don't...the natural results of cursings."
1. A loss of salvation--cursings.
2. Following the rules--works salvation.
--The redeemed must follow the rules in order to avoid the natural results of cursings. The natural results of the curse under the law is eternal separation from God.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
--Cursed is everyone that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
From death to life, if you but sin just one time in your life, you are cursed--cursed for all eternity. There is no salvation under the law. The law condemns. It cannot save. Yet you say we must keep the same law as in the OT. Ridiculous.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
--Notice the emphasis here is on faith, not grace. We are justified by faith. It is not the law but faith that justifies.

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
--Christ was made a curse for us. We don't receive cursings because Christ was made a curse for us. It is Christ who redeemed us from the curse of the law.

No. It is a misunderstanding of everything I have stated, at best, or a deliberate twisting of all that I have stated, at worst, and I sincerely hope it is the former.

As you can see I quoted your exact words. You don't understand OT law, NT grace, or faith as it seems.

True, in every point. And I have not stated we are saved (eternally) by following rules, or that we keep and lose our eternal salvation through rules.
Like I said, you have misunderstood everything, or twisted everything.

I quoted you word for word. I have refuted your stand through Scripture.

I have already demonstrated through scripture that faith is not works or a work. The scriptures are very clear on this. Faith and works are opposed to each other.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11 - Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Scripture taken out of context.
He is writing to believers, the Thessalonian believers to be precise. Yes, believers in Christ do have "works of faith." We need to live our lives by faith. That wasn't the topic in question was it. The topic was, and still is, salvation. Faith in Christ is not a work. Tell me, what will you pay me for my faith? Can I sell it to you? Can I use my faith to work for you?
Does all of that make any sense to you? It shouldn't because faith is not a work. As I previously pointed out through Scripture, faith and works are opposed to each other.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/FONT]
--In the grand scheme of grace it is faith that justifies not works. Faith is opposed to works. It is not a work.

Eternal salvation is a gift and will always be one, given by a loving God to those whom He foreknew, and whom He loved, before they knew Him, and loved Him.

There is only one kind of salvation. It is a gift from God received by faith in time.
[FONT=&quot]Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/FONT]

Two conflicting statements.
Picture God, holding gifts, and saying, I've got a gift here for you, if you'll take me by faith. If not, then I can't gift you.

If I take it, then I merit it, and it's no longer a gift. It's a prize I earned for my response.
kinda like Pavlov.
simple, straightforward, no ever-circling reasoning.

You have a warped view of salvation.
When I give a gift to my child at her birthday or at Christmas or at any time, she is not bribed in any way whatsoever. She simply receives it out of my hand in faith. What faith? In faith that a loving father would never give his daughter anything that would harm her, but always something that would please her.

Jesus himself used the same illustration:
[FONT=&quot]Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/FONT]
--Was Jesus teaching bribery? Was Jesus saying that a gift is earned?
Or are you inferring that Jesus is deceptive because he doesn't agree with you?

This statement of Jesus:
[FONT=&quot]how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/FONT]
It goes directly against everything you just posted.
Salvation is a gift to be received by faith.

Now who's confused ?

Certainly not me.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, you are incorrectly dividing the word by lumping everything into one jolly eternal salvation.
You need to correctly put "eternity" where it belongs, "grace" where it belongs, "blessings in time" where it belongs.
If eternal salvation is all there is to it, then,( and I've asked this maybe to you or another "Calvinist"}, WHY didn't He just nuke this world after the cross, and be done with it and be content with whoever He will have with Him in heaven at that time ?

You are the one claiming that eternal salvation is all there is to salvation by grace not me or any Biblical writers as they all contradict that notion. According to ytour theory God could have nuked the world at the cross and all would have been saved by grace according to your idea of ETERNAL SALVATION. According to your idea eternal salvation applied in time is nothing but works and therefore salvation by grace has nothing to do with what happens in time but only in eternity. So according to your theory God could have nuked the world at the cross and it would not have affected the elect one bit, as they were already saved eternally.

If Jesus Christ, and Him alone, was the Annointed Savior of and for His people, and if, as you and I will probably agree, He did it all well, then WHY duplicate what He has done by sending out His apostles under what you call "The Great Commission" ?

YOur argument here assumes your position is correct when it is not. It would be a duplication if your theory was correct. However, your theory is not correct. The eternal purpose of God SAVES NNE except by God implementing it in time and space and that is precisely why God said all that he had purposed "I WILL ALSO DO IT" meaning it never had been done until it actually occurs in time and space. The eternal purpose is "UNTO" salvation in time (2 Thes. 2:13-14). The Great Commission is carrying out in time what God purposed in eternity and that is precisely and literally what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. That is precisely and literally what Ephesians 1:4-13 says.

Does not the Bible say that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8)???? If that were LITERALLY true then why come down and go to the cross in time and space? According to your logic is not that simply DUPLICATING what has already been done???????.

That is what the seminaries teach, that is what the seminary graduates teach, that is what the Sunday School teachers teach, but that is not what the Bible suggests.

That is what Jesus says verbatim in John 6:37-39, and 44, all you have to do is read English. He says that "OF ALL" the Father gave "shall come to me" or does that me something else? He says ALL GIVEN equals ALL WHO COME, that leaves ZERO that did not come to Christ in faith and coming to Christ in faith is the subject in direct contrast to those in the context who do not come to Christ in faith (Jn. 6:36). He says NO MAN can come to him except first the Father draw them, which means since "ALL" given to him do in fact 'come to me" then that "ALL" had to first be drawn by the Father. Thus, the ability to savingly believe in Christ or coming to Christ by faith is the work of God and the context proves it is the work of God alone, as those who did not believe in Jn. 6:64 were not drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:65). That is simple English with total clarity without any amibiguous language! You simply don't believe it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is the DOCTRINE that is heretical, whereas the word "heretic" refers to the person and yes, what he is teaching in my opinion is absolutely heretical even though he may be doing it sincerely and with personal integrity.

Again your opinion....be careful brother Mark....

 

[The Biblicist]

Again your opinion....be careful brother Mark....

No, that is not my opinion. The idea that salvation in time is works is repeatedly addressed throughout the Scriptures and condemned as "another gospel."

The idea that God's purpose can be separated from God's implementation of that plan is irrational as well as unbiblical and directly contradicted by God Himself in Isaiah 46:10-11. Neither PB or you have been able to address this text which clearly and unambiguously repudiates the whole notion that salvation in eternity is a different kind of salvation then salvation in time.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again your opinion....be careful brother Mark....

This is the same kind of rationale that would argue that the archetects blue print is one kind of house while the house built according to that blue print is another kind of house. The only difference is between purpose and reality but it is the very same house. That is precisely what God says in Isaiah 46:10-11 that what he had purposed in eternity past IS EXACTLY what "I shall also DO IT" - no ambiguity here, but a clear and decisive statement of fact.

 

[The Biblicist]

To be "of faith" is not to be justified by grace "without works".
Faith is works, albeit a good work, and if you are to be justified by your faith, then it is no more of grace.

Although man has natural faith, what he does not have and cannot exercise due to his fallen nature is justifying faith (Rom. 8:7;Jn. 6:44 "no man CAN come to me" this speaks of natural ability - zero - thus God must first work - draw - before any man can come - therefore faith is the consequence of a necessary preceding work of God drawing first).

Justifying faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29). He is not sayiing that this is a work they can do for God but the very opposite! They were incapable of believing in him (Jn. 6:30-36) regardless of the miraculous works and words provided by God to them (Jn. 6:30-36). That is precisely why coming to Christ is first contingent upon first being "given" by the Father (Jn. 6:37-40). That is precisely why coming to Christ is first contingent upon first being drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:44). Coming to Christ by faith IS THE WORK OF GOD. That is precisely why unbelievers (Jn. 6:64) remain in unbelief because the Father has never drawn them (Jn. 6:65). Jesus is both the "author" and "finisher" of our faith. Justification is "of faith that it might be BY GRACE" (Rom. 4:16) as "BY GRACE ....through faith" we are saved (Eph. 2:8) which is "NOT OF WORKS" (v. 9) and Paul is grammatically referring to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith". We must FIRST be "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" that follow but do not precede this creative work of God. Hence, if faith is regarded as a "good work" it would only follow this creative work of God (quickening) rather than precede it. The grace of God that saves is "through faith" and "not of works" thus it is "of faith that it might by by grace" (Rom. 4:16).

However, what you and arminians are claiming is that Romans 4:16 should read "it is of faith that it might by works" but that is not what it says. It is "of faith" referring contextually to receiving the promise of inheritance (vv. 13-15) that it might be "by grace" instead of by the works of the law (vv. 13-15). Faith is directly contrasted to the works of the law in Romans 4:13-16 and classified not with the "works" of the law but "by grace."

So Arminians and PB's are totally incorrect when they claim that justifying faith" is a work of man - that is false. Just as repentance must be "granted" (Acts 11:17) so must faith be granted AS GOSPEL FAITH IS INSEPARABLE FROM GOSPEL REPENTANCE.

 

[Iconoclast]

I ignored them because they are muddle of confusion and really have no reference at all to two different types of salvation.

:thumbsup:

Quite true, but that does not prove what He purpose was not also what He "also did" in time. I am not opposing grace from beginning to end. You seem to think if God's purpose of grace is merely applied to man in time that that is another salvation and of works. However, the model for "all who are of faith" repudiates that inference as He was justified by grace "without works" and that was God applying His eternal purpose of grace in time.

:thumbsup:



That is called PITTING scripture against scripture rather than addressing the text at all. You have not addressed that text at all.
:wavey:



Again, you seem to imagine that mere application or carrying out of God's purpose of grace in time is some other kind of salvation. It is not.


:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

This is the same kind of rationale that would argue that the archetects blue print is one kind of house while the house built according to that blue print is another kind of house. The only difference is between purpose and reality but it is the very same house. That is precisely what God says in Isaiah 46:10-11 that what he had purposed in eternity past IS EXACTLY what "I shall also DO IT" - no ambiguity here, but a clear and decisive statement of fact.

VERY CLEAR:thumbs::thumbs:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


What was planned in eternity unfolds over time...not as distinct but planned to happen in time....redemption actually happens in time:thumbs::wavey:Using the God ordained means.