Featured You may be teaching Justification by the Law !

*sigh* Alright, here goes...you have established an unnecessary caveat on those debating you. You are requiring an actual verse that states, almost verbatim, that faith is not a work. You have adopted the position that, if such a verse cannot be shown, then your position is correct. You have, in essence, disallowed those debating you from using scriptural inference. Yet your own position requires scriptural inference, as the words of Christ in Matthew 23:23, as Jesus does not use the word "work," though you infer it to mean work, as it is something that has to be physically (or metaphysically) done.

You have, to my understanding, basically placed the scripture of Matt 23 in opposition with the scripture of Ephesians 2, which states we are saved "by grace through FAITH," and "not of works."

I am going to ask you a question. This is a question that I will now be asking you for a fourth time, though not all in this particular thread, that you have yet to answer. This question, I believe, bears great implication on your premise.

Are the words of Jesus in the Bible considered to carry more weight than the words of the apostles?

Remember, Paul tells us that all scripture is divinely inspired and profitable for man.

 

There is NO free will, apart from those of us now found in Christ, as the sinner cannot freely chose, as he is now a slave to sin nature, and the bible NO WHERE teaches that alvation is on a "conditional basis", as either you have Eternal life or not!

 

This entire argument is unnecessary.

savedbymercy has a monomaniacal fascination with Matt. 23:23 asserting that "faith" is a weightier matter of the law and therefore faith is a work. An entire theology by savedbymercy is based on this single verse from the KJV.

It's hilarious because the word the KJV renders "faith" in this verse should be translated "faithfulness".

This entire argument is unnecessary.

 

You're just never going to answer my question, are you? You accuse others of evading, yet you've evade my question on several occasions.

And you can keep repeating it until you are blue in the face, but the truth is we've pointed out scripture to you and, as ITL so eloquently stated, you have adopted the monomaniacal adherence to one part of one verse of the scripture.

 

faith is always a requirement unto salvation in the scriptures though!

 

Silly rabbit. Yes, you contrasted faith and works; but you never explained whose faith was mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 or Romans.

Those verses have traditionally been interpreted as individual faith; but you apparently believe they mean someone else's faith....

 

You totally ignored my main point which was the "faith" topic of the verse is "faithfulness", as in keeping promises, and not saving faith. Having good judgment does not save you, neither does mercy, or faithfulness to others, yet they are matters of the Law which God expected the Jews to observe and keep.

23 Woe be to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, as judgment, and mercy and fidelity. These ought ye to have done, and not to have left the other. [Geneva Bible]

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. [NIV]

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. [ESV]

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. [NASB]

 

And that really is the final statement.

 

That is a good summary.

The basic problem is that definition and restrictions are being "invented" of the form "if you claim you must breathe or your heart must beat and that this is necessary for obtaining salvation - then you are claiming you are saved by works - salvation by works" only replace heart beat and breathing with whatever other non-biblical-restriction you like such as "as to many as receive Him".

The result is the very statements of the Bible in John 1 and Romans 10 can be "construed" as "salvation by works" if one is allowed to "invent definitions" for what is works salvation.

During the Protestant reformation the whole point was to hold teaching accountable "sola scriptura" so that simply making stuff up was not accepted.

Paul does apply the salvation by works idea to gentiles being circumcised - but not once is the "to as many as received Him.." of John 1 or the "believes resulting in justification... confesses resulting in salvation" sequence of Romans 10 said to be a form of "Salvation by works".

For that sort of condemnation on the idea - one has to quote a Calvinist POV it is not in the actual Bible.

The Bible does not say "by grace are you SAVED through FAITH -- no wait! not through Faith because then that would be works - saved through something else then... maybe grace... by grace are you saved through grace!".



in Christ,

Bob

 

"to as many as received Him " John 1

"I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in" Rev

"with the heart MAN believers RESULTing in justification and with the mouth man confesses RESULTING in salvation" Romans 10

The Gospel result is always a response to - a result of the lost making a choice and taking an action.

A choice and an action in the case of the lost brought about by the supernatural work of infinite God the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 as well as "DRAWING ALL - " unto Him John 12:32.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It would be helpful if you cross checked the scripture you quote against translations other than the KJV. Nearly all of them (perhaps every one) say "faithfulness" rather than "faith" like the KJV does. So no, faith is not a work of the law.

 

You must be correct since you are getting a lot of support from your fellow board members.

 

Did jesus and the Apostles agree wih that though?

 

Evasion, and rabbit trail...

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