You may be teaching Justification by the Law !

[PreachTony]

Show me a text that says Faith is not a work ! In fact its a work of the Law, something that ought to be done, says Christ Matt 23:23

Now who cannot see that Faith is something done as noted in Matt 23:23, it cannot be debated without looking foolish !

*sigh* Alright, here goes...you have established an unnecessary caveat on those debating you. You are requiring an actual verse that states, almost verbatim, that faith is not a work. You have adopted the position that, if such a verse cannot be shown, then your position is correct. You have, in essence, disallowed those debating you from using scriptural inference. Yet your own position requires scriptural inference, as the words of Christ in Matthew 23:23, as Jesus does not use the word "work," though you infer it to mean work, as it is something that has to be physically (or metaphysically) done.

You have, to my understanding, basically placed the scripture of Matt 23 in opposition with the scripture of Ephesians 2, which states we are saved "by grace through FAITH," and "not of works."

I am going to ask you a question. This is a question that I will now be asking you for a fourth time, though not all in this particular thread, that you have yet to answer. This question, I believe, bears great implication on your premise.

Are the words of Jesus in the Bible considered to carry more weight than the words of the apostles?

Remember, Paul tells us that all scripture is divinely inspired and profitable for man.

 

[Yeshua1]

According to the Bible - God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.



Indeed the Bible never calls confession/repentance/ receiving Christ as "salvation by works" -- not one single text in that regard.

Rather it commands it - and even gives a "sequence" for what "results in salvation" that Calvinism does not permit.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

According to the Bible - God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

It is only by ignoring texts such as those given above - in this case Romans 10 specifically that Calvinism's system of "extreme inference" and "redefinition of terms" can even survive.

in Christ,

Bob

There is NO free will, apart from those of us now found in Christ, as the sinner cannot freely chose, as he is now a slave to sin nature, and the bible NO WHERE teaches that alvation is on a "conditional basis", as either you have Eternal life or not!

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

*sigh* Alright, here goes...you have established an unnecessary caveat on those debating you. You are requiring an actual verse that states, almost verbatim, that faith is not a work. You have adopted the position that, if such a verse cannot be shown, then your position is correct. You have, in essence, disallowed those debating you from using scriptural inference. Yet your own position requires scriptural inference, as the words of Christ in Matthew 23:23, as Jesus does not use the word "work," though you infer it to mean work, as it is something that has to be physically (or metaphysically) done.

No, I have given a Truth that is been carelessly neglected by many, this scripture has been in the bible since there has been a bible ! And yes, since this scripture clearly indicates that Faith is a work of they Law that ought to be done, you would need one with the equivalence force saying that its not ! That would be impossible because that would flat out contradict Matt 23:23 !

All of the scriptures you and others have provided only show a contrast between being saved/ justified by works and being saved/ justified by Faith, which contrast i have already addressed in my OP on this serious matter !

As stated, the only way to avoid the contradiction is to understand, when it comes to Justification by faith before God, the only way to avoid it becoming works, is if we acknowledge that first and foremost those Justified by Faith is when that Faith is not their own, but the Faith or Faithfulness of Jesus Christ, it is His Faith / Faithfulness, Work that Justifies those He died for before God ! Now you best keep this post in mind because I am not going to keep explaining myself over and over because you dont want to acknowledge the Truth , that Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done !

 

[InTheLight]

This entire argument is unnecessary.

savedbymercy has a monomaniacal fascination with Matt. 23:23 asserting that "faith" is a weightier matter of the law and therefore faith is a work. An entire theology by savedbymercy is based on this single verse from the KJV.

It's hilarious because the word the KJV renders "faith" in this verse should be translated "faithfulness".

This entire argument is unnecessary.

 

[savedbymercy]

This entire argument is unnecessary.

savedbymercy has a monomaniacal fascination with Matt. 23:23 asserting that "faith" is a weightier matter of the law and therefore faith is a work. An entire theology by savedbymercy is based on this single verse from the KJV.

It's hilarious because the word the KJV renders "faith" in this verse should be translated "faithfulness".

This entire argument is unnecessary.

You did not finish the verse, it reads a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done !

Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Again, what is classified a work according to the definition ergon ?


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[PreachTony]

You did not finish the verse, it reads a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done !

Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Again, what is classified a work according to the definition ergon ?


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

You're just never going to answer my question, are you? You accuse others of evading, yet you've evade my question on several occasions.

And you can keep repeating it until you are blue in the face, but the truth is we've pointed out scripture to you and, as ITL so eloquently stated, you have adopted the monomaniacal adherence to one part of one verse of the scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

You're just never going to answer my question, are you? You accuse others of evading, yet you've evade my question on several occasions.

And you can keep repeating it until you are blue in the face, but the truth is we've pointed out scripture to you and, as ITL so eloquently stated, you have adopted the monomaniacal adherence to one part of one verse of the scripture.

Yeah you have, but it doesnt say Faith is not a work, they only contrast the difference between faith and works, and I have already addressed that in the OP, its on you if you choose to ignore it and evade it !

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah you have, but it doesnt say Faith is not a work, they only contrast the difference between faith and works, and I have already addressed that in the OP, its on you if you choose to ignore it and evade it !

faith is always a requirement unto salvation in the scriptures though!

 

[Don]

Yeah you have, but it doesnt say Faith is not a work, they only contrast the difference between faith and works, and I have already addressed that in the OP, its on you if you choose to ignore it and evade it !

Silly rabbit. Yes, you contrasted faith and works; but you never explained whose faith was mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 or Romans.

Those verses have traditionally been interpreted as individual faith; but you apparently believe they mean someone else's faith....

 

[InTheLight]

You did not finish the verse, it reads a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done !

Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Again, what is classified a work according to the definition ergon ?

You totally ignored my main point which was the "faith" topic of the verse is "faithfulness", as in keeping promises, and not saving faith. Having good judgment does not save you, neither does mercy, or faithfulness to others, yet they are matters of the Law which God expected the Jews to observe and keep.

23 Woe be to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, as judgment, and mercy and fidelity. These ought ye to have done, and not to have left the other. [Geneva Bible]

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. [NIV]

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. [ESV]

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. [NASB]

 

[plain_n_simple]

This entire argument is unnecessary.

savedbymercy has a monomaniacal fascination with Matt. 23:23 asserting that "faith" is a weightier matter of the law and therefore faith is a work. An entire theology by savedbymercy is based on this single verse from the KJV.

It's hilarious because the word the KJV renders "faith" in this verse should be translated "faithfulness".

This entire argument is unnecessary.

And that really is the final statement.

 

[BobRyan]

*sigh* Alright, here goes...you have established an unnecessary caveat on those debating you. You are requiring an actual verse that states, almost verbatim, that faith is not a work. You have adopted the position that, if such a verse cannot be shown, then your position is correct. You have, in essence, disallowed those debating you from using scriptural inference. Yet your own position requires scriptural inference,.

That is a good summary.

The basic problem is that definition and restrictions are being "invented" of the form "if you claim you must breathe or your heart must beat and that this is necessary for obtaining salvation - then you are claiming you are saved by works - salvation by works" only replace heart beat and breathing with whatever other non-biblical-restriction you like such as "as to many as receive Him".

The result is the very statements of the Bible in John 1 and Romans 10 can be "construed" as "salvation by works" if one is allowed to "invent definitions" for what is works salvation.

During the Protestant reformation the whole point was to hold teaching accountable "sola scriptura" so that simply making stuff up was not accepted.

Paul does apply the salvation by works idea to gentiles being circumcised - but not once is the "to as many as received Him.." of John 1 or the "believes resulting in justification... confesses resulting in salvation" sequence of Romans 10 said to be a form of "Salvation by works".

For that sort of condemnation on the idea - one has to quote a Calvinist POV it is not in the actual Bible.

The Bible does not say "by grace are you SAVED through FAITH -- no wait! not through Faith because then that would be works - saved through something else then... maybe grace... by grace are you saved through grace!".



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is NO free will, apart from those of us now found in Christ, as the sinner cannot freely chose, as he is now a slave to sin nature, and the bible NO WHERE teaches that alvation is on a "conditional basis", as either you have Eternal life or not!

"to as many as received Him " John 1

"I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in" Rev

"with the heart MAN believers RESULTing in justification and with the mouth man confesses RESULTING in salvation" Romans 10

The Gospel result is always a response to - a result of the lost making a choice and taking an action.

A choice and an action in the case of the lost brought about by the supernatural work of infinite God the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 as well as "DRAWING ALL - " unto Him John 12:32.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Zenas]

According to Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Is Faith something of the weightier matters of the LAW that ought to be DONE ? Yes or No ?

It would be helpful if you cross checked the scripture you quote against translations other than the KJV. Nearly all of them (perhaps every one) say "faithfulness" rather than "faith" like the KJV does. So no, faith is not a work of the law.

 

[savedbymercy]

It would be helpful if you cross checked the scripture you quote against translations other than the KJV. Nearly all of them (perhaps every one) say "faithfulness" rather than "faith" like the KJV does. So no, faith is not a work of the law.

I have done that, it doesnt change anything, Faith and Faithfulness are the same thing, the very same greek word, besides faithfulness is what one is as they live by faith day by day ! You just need to face the Truth and quit trying to evade it ! Faith is a work , and a work of the Law !

 

[savedbymercy]

itl

You totally ignored my main point which was the "faith" topic of the verse is "faithfulness", as in keeping promises, and not saving faith. Having good judgment does not save you, neither does mercy, or faithfulness to others, yet they are matters of the Law which God expected the Jews to observe and keep.

Evasion, and rabbit trail, I never stated that having good judgment save anyone ! Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done !

 

[InTheLight]

itl



Evasion, and rabbit trail, I never stated that having good judgment save anyone ! Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done !

You must be correct since you are getting a lot of support from your fellow board members.

 

[Yeshua1]

You must be correct since you are getting a lot of support from your fellow board members.

Did jesus and the Apostles agree wih that though?

 

[savedbymercy]

You must be correct since you are getting a lot of support from your fellow board members.

Is that how you gauge whether or not someone is correct ?

 

[InTheLight]

Is that how you gauge whether or not someone is correct ?

Evasion, and rabbit trail...

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