Thoughts on, Propitiation.

[Van]

I agree with everything you state here except perhaps a denial that 1 John 2:2 speaks of propitiation rather than atonement in general (it is not reading back into the Greek, "propitiation " has a specific meaning as does the Greek word...I take it you object to "propitiation", which is fair but I think propitiation serves your view just fine). But you are right that there are none "in Christ" but those who believe.

Sometimes it is hard to understand the posts of others. For example who denies that 1 John 2:2 speaks of propitiation? The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. If a person is not "in" the propitiatory shelter of Christ, they are children of wrath. If people are transferred into Christ, they enter the propitiatory shelter of Christ, and are no longer children of wrath.

If we are not "in Christ" we are not in a propitious situation, facing the wrath of God. But if we are "in Christ" the situation is propitious, favorable, we are justified and united with God, our sins are forgiven.

I object to folks providing a special definition of a word, when the dictionary meaning works. Christ is the means of our salvation, He is the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world. Everyone who is transferred into His shelter is saved, and everyone not in Christ is unsaved.

 

[The Biblicist]

Is that not better defined as expiation rather than propitiation?

No, because "propitiation" provides satisfation of both a negative and positive demand of the Law. Positve in satisfying the righteousness demanded to be justified by the Law. Negative in satisfying the condemnation demanded to be justified by the law (Rom. 4:6-8).

 

[The Biblicist]

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ.

More specifically it is the life and death of Christ that is our propitiation, as one without the other provides no salvation.

 

[Van]

No, Christ is our propitiation. 1 John 2:2. The effort to deny this obvious truth by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists is amazing.

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, Christ is our propitiation. 1 John 2:2. The effort to deny this obvious truth by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists is amazing.

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ.

Christ is MEANINGLESS apart from His life and death, and his life and death are MEANINGLESS if they don't satisfy God righteous demands against sin and sinners.

What you have done is EMPTY the term "Christ" of propitiation and made him simply an ABSTRACT term void of any significance.

 

[JonC]

No, Christ is our propitiation. 1 John 2:2. The effort to deny this obvious truth by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists is amazing.

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. All this effort to read the meanings of English words back into the Greek is nonsense. Not spiritually "in Christ" unsaved, "in Christ" saved. We receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross when God spiritually transfers us into Christ, and not before. God's wrath was not turned away from any sinner, any one who by nature is a child of wrath, until the sinner undergoes the circumcision of Christ.

Perhaps our disagreement is based on the translation we use. I have been using the NASB95 which says of Christ that he himself is the propitiation for our sin. What translation are you referencing?

My observation is that if you want to say Christ is "our salvation," then why limit it to "propitiation"? Also, why the link to "our sins"? My view is that Christ Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only that but for the sins of the whole world (everyone's sin). Why add to or change that? Propitiation points to Christ's death paying adverting the wrath of God.

 

[Van]

No, our disagreement is that you are unwilling (not unable) to accept that Christ is our propitiation. Did I say Christ is only our propitiation and nothing more? Nope. Why find fault where none exists?

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation.

My NASB95 reads, " And He Himself is the propitiation from our sins...." The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. If a person is not "in" the propitiatory shelter of Christ, they are children of wrath. If people are transferred into Christ, they enter the propitiatory shelter of Christ, and are no longer children of wrath.

The gospel is simple and straightforward.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, our disagreement is that you are unwilling (not unable) to accept that Christ is our propitiation. Did I say Christ is only our propitiation and nothing more? Nope. Why find fault where none exists?

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation.

My NASB95 reads, " And He Himself is the propitiation from our sins...." The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. If a person is not "in" the propitiatory shelter of Christ, they are children of wrath. If people are transferred into Christ, they enter the propitiatory shelter of Christ, and are no longer children of wrath.

The gospel is simple and straightforward.

Your gospel is words EMPTY of meaning and the "Christ" you say is the "means of salvation" is a "Christ" that saves no one, BECAUSE the propitiation of scripture is Christ SATISFYING the full demands of the Law for righteousness and against sin. You have a "propitiation" that satisfies NOTHING for NNE.

 

[JonC]

No, our disagreement is that you are unwilling (not unable) to accept that Christ is our propitiation. Did I say Christ is only our propitiation and nothing more? Nope. Why find fault where none exists?

To repeat, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation.

My NASB95 reads, " And He Himself is the propitiation from our sins...." The verse says Christ is our propitiation. But what does that mean? It means Christ is our means of salvation. .

I do see what you mean, Van. Where I disagree is that I do not believe propitiation to be as broad a term as "salvation." I do think that it is talking about Christ as our atoning sacrifice, but in the sense that he is the propitiation for our sins. In short, I think that we agree that Christ is our salvation. I believe that Christ is the atoning sacrifice that appeases the wrath of God for all sin (even for those who don't believe) and that his death is the atonement which forms the means of salvation for everyone (even for those who don't believe) but I only see the former incorporated in the word "propitiation" (if it included both, then the word should have been "atonement"). It isn't enough difference to squabble over, although we will never agree until one of us changes dictionaries.

 

[JonC]

No, because "propitiation" provides satisfation of both a negative and positive demand of the Law. Positve in satisfying the righteousness demanded to be justified by the Law. Negative in satisfying the condemnation demanded to be justified by the law (Rom. 4:6-8).

I am trying to work through your answer, Biblicist. I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying in terms of positive and negative aspects of propitiation. Propitiation is an atonement to appease or turn away wrath. So in terms of the Law (Torah) or even God's law, Christ's sacrifice meets the requirement that justice demands and thus God's wrath is satisfied, or appeased. God remains a just because He has dealt with our sin. This is how I understand the negative aspect, but I am having problems with the positive side of your argument. I am also not sure that this doesn't go beyond propitiation to a more general term (atonement). If you care to elaborate, I am willing to listen.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am trying to work through your answer, Biblicist. I am not quite sure I understand what you are saying in terms of positive and negative aspects of propitiation. Propitiation is an atonement to appease or turn away wrath. So in terms of the Law (Torah) or even God's law, Christ's sacrifice meets the requirement that justice demands and thus God's wrath is satisfied, or appeased. God remains a just because He has dealt with our sin. This is how I understand the negative aspect, but I am having problems with the positive side of your argument. I am also not sure that this doesn't go beyond propitiation to a more general term (atonement). If you care to elaborate, I am willing to listen.

The term is used for the "mercy" lid on the ark. Think about what the ark contained. Think what had to be applied to the "mercy" lid? The "blood" of the animal represents the life of a "spotless" animal - type of the sinless life of Christ. The mercy seat is where God's wrath is satisfied by a sinless life that has been put to death. Hence, both death and life are represented by the blood in connection with the law of God contained within the ark and the "manna" contained within the ark, and the rod that budded contained in the ark. Hence, the "mercy" seat conveys the totality of that truth.

Any definition of "propitiation" that does not convey the totality of that truth is "another Jesus" and "another gospel."

 

[JonC]

The term is used for the "mercy" lid on the ark. Think about what the ark contained. Think what had to be applied to the "mercy" lid? The "blood" of the animal represents the life of a "spotless" animal - type of the sinless life of Christ. The mercy seat is where God's wrath is satisfied by a sinless life that has been put to death. Hence, both death and life are represented by the blood in connection with the law of God contained within the ark and the "manna" contained within the ark, and the rod that budded contained in the ark. Hence, the "mercy" seat conveys the totality of that truth.

Any definition of "propitiation" that does not convey the totality of that truth is "another Jesus" and "another gospel."

So you are saying that the positive aspect is Christ as the "spotless" sacrifice meeting the requirement of "righteousness"?

 

[The Biblicist]

So you are saying that the positive aspect is Christ as the "spotless" sacrifice meeting the requirement of "righteousness"?

Yes! that is what the death of a "lamb without spot or blemish" is all about.

 

[JonC]

Yes! that is what the death of a "lamb without spot or blemish" is all about.

I agree that all of this is essential doctrine - I was just making sure that I was following your argument (I wasn't clear on the "positive" aspect and wanted to clarify with you).

 

[percho]

Christ is MEANINGLESS apart from His life and death, and his life and death are MEANINGLESS if they don't satisfy God righteous demands against sin and sinners.

What you have done is EMPTY the term "Christ" of propitiation and made him simply an ABSTRACT term void of any significance.

and his life and death are MEANINGLESS if they don't satisfy God

Is there not something else to the equation?

How do we know that God was satisfied?

Was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead necessary for the washing away of our sins in his own blood?

 

[The Biblicist]

and his life and death are MEANINGLESS if they don't satisfy God

Is there not something else to the equation?

Look at what I said in context! I explained the full context of the mercy seat with its contents and the kind of animal necessary all of which is a type of Christ and his satisfaction of all those demands.

How do we know that God was satisfied?

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: - Isa. 53:11

Interpret this verse by the preceding 10 verses rather than merely by this text jerked out of context or some peice meal aspect of this verse.

Was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead necessary for the washing away of our sins in his own blood?

The resurrection was proof, vindication, justification that his offering had satisfied God and sin, death and hell were overcome. If Christ had remained in the grave UNDER DEATH, then his atonement would not have satisfied God as death STILL REIGNED over him and thus over all He represented.

 

[Van]

I do see what you mean, Van. Where I disagree is that I do not believe propitiation to be as broad a term as "salvation." I do think that it is talking about Christ as our atoning sacrifice, but in the sense that he is the propitiation for our sins. In short, I think that we agree that Christ is our salvation. I believe that Christ is the atoning sacrifice that appeases the wrath of God for all sin (even for those who don't believe) and that his death is the atonement which forms the means of salvation for everyone (even for those who don't believe) but I only see the former incorporated in the word "propitiation" (if it included both, then the word should have been "atonement"). It isn't enough difference to squabble over, although we will never agree until one of us changes dictionaries.

1) Did I say "propitiation" is as broad as "salvation?" Nope. What did I say? Propitiation provides the means of salvation.

2) Did I say 1 John 2:2 was talking about our atoning sacrifice? Nope. What did I say. Christ is our propitiation.

3) Is the word translated reconciliation the same Greek word as the one translated "propitiation?" Nope. Propitiation is the means of salvation, reconciliation is the result of salvation.

4) Not sure what Greek word you claim means atoning sacrifice? Oops, now I found it. You switched versions, and are using the NIV or other Calvinistic translation to redefine propitiation as atoning sacrifice. Not what it means.

Folks, 1 John 2:2 says Christ is our propitiation, or means of salvation. If we are not "in Christ" we are not "in the propitiatory shelter of Christ." We are not in a propitious or favorable place. If God transfers us into Christ, then we are in the propitiatory shelter of Christ, a very propitious place. So simple a child could understand it.

 

[The Biblicist]

1) Not what it means.

According to who?

 

[The Biblicist]

According to who?

The Greek term "hilastrion" is translated "propitiation" in Rom. 3:25 and this exact form is found only one other place in the New Testament where it is translated "mercy seat" in Hebrews 9:5. In 1 Jn. 2:2 this is not the term used but rather "hilasmos."

Christ is the mercy seat ONLY in the sense of the typology being expressed by the mercy seat on the day of atonement. It is what APPEASES or SATISFIES God's wrath against sin and God's righteous demands. On the day of the atonement is expressed by the typology of the contents under the "mercy seat" and what is placed upon the "mercy seat". It is the "blood" of a lamb without spot or blemish, thus typical of a SINLESS LIFE that is placed UPON the mercy seat on the day of atonement. UNDER the mercy seat is the law of Moses, the manna in a jar and Aaron's rod that budded. Typically, these things also represent Christ as the WHOLE ARK represents Christ as Christ fulfilled the law by HIS LIFE. He gave HIS LIFE as God gave MANNA to sustain the physical life of Israel. His resurrection out of death is typified by the rod that budded. It is this WHOLE PICTURE of the "mercy seat" on the day of atonement that actually SATISFIES God's righteousness and wrath against His people. It is not the "means of salvation" but is that actual obtaining of salvation in the objective sense by the Person and work of Christ which is ALREADY FINISHED and God is already SATISFIED objectively.

 

[Van]

No matter how often Calvinists redefine the meanings of words, the truth of God's message cannot be denied.

Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation. Not in Christ, not saved; in Christ - saved! We go from having wrath stored up against us, to being forgiven.

Do the lexicons indicate propitiation means "atoning sacrifice?" Nope

Strong's and Thayer's - the means of appeasing, a propitiation​

I am reminded of the old story of a student taking a theology class. He said he was still confused, but he was confused on a higher level.