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Thoughts on, Propitiation.
- Thread starter percho
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Ridiculous! Either he "is our propitiation" or he "is our means" of salvation! Either He IS "propitiation" or he is merely the "means" of salvation! Salvation is very broad in application as a term but "propitiation" is very narrow. Either he IS propitiation or he is the MEANS. The term "propitiation" is not synonmous with the word "means" but your statement above make they synonyms. Make up your mind!
According to your own authorities, the term "propitiation" means "appeasement" or don't you even believe your own authorities??? Appeasement means to SATISFY, thus he is our SATISFACTION, but what is it that he provides SATISFACTION for? You have no clue.
If he "is" our propitiation then he is our Savlation from the wrath of God or don't you believe your own words as you say, "we go from having wrath stored up against us, to being forgiven." Thus by your own definition He IS OUR SALVATION from the wrath of God.
But, as a "means of salvation" you simply empty the word of any meaning! If he is the "means" there must be something instrumentally provided to be accomplished by that "means" or it is no "means" at all but just empty jibberish!
Obviously you have no clue, as you repeat the same empty jibberish over and over again.
This term is translated "mercy seat" because of the symbolism established around the "mercy seat" on the day of atonment and what was contained in the ark under the lid and what was placed upon the lid. It is the TRUTH declared in this symbolism that defines WHY he is the "means" of appeasement. Again, you have no clue!
You obviously don't even understand what you are saying! Strong's and Thayer are defining it exactly as I do. Don't you understand there can be no "means" of appeasing without defining WHAT it is about Christ or what Christ provided that appeases??????? Appeases WHAT? What is needed for God to be Appeased/Satisfied????? You have no clue.
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Van said:
Biblicist said:
Not in Christ = unsaved!
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
The Son, of God the Father, satisfied the Father, by sacrifice of his perfect life, which was in the blood of him?
propitiation, = (satisfying sacrifice) through the faith in his blood?
But without faith it is impossible to please G2100 him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Heb 13:16
Who's sacrifice?
Who's satisfied?
Who's the faith in the of him blood?
Was it. the faith in the of him blood, that brought about the satisfying sacrifice, propitiation that allowed the God to before place, the Christ?
Not in Christ = unsaved!
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
God Himself met the requirement of His Justice. Apart from faith of men, even if none would believe and there were no elect, God would still be glorified. But how much more is He glorified in the mercy he has shown His people. If I understand you correctly, and there is a great possibility I don't, you seem to center salvation on man rather than God.
The exact opposite, I believe salvation is all of God including the faith.
I believe because God had faith in his only begotten Son born of woman in being obedient unto sacrificing his life, which was in his blood, that God his Father before the foundation of the world, placed his Son to be born of woman as propitiation.
Has nothing to do with what we believe and or accept. God, just as he called Noah, Abraham, David unto the faith (the Son of God being obedient unto death and receiving the grace of God, resurrection to die no more ) and so forth, elects to give his Spirit to those being translated from unbelief unto belief, from darkness unto light.
I believe the appointment for man to die was before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created or sinned, they would all see the death in Adam. The death that was the power of Satan the devil, that old serpent. Afterward there would be a judgement.
Dead men are not judged. In Christ all will be made alive.
When?
Each in his own order.
Day after tomorrow I will be 72. I was born into a Presbyterian Family and joined and was sprinkled at 14, At 35 was baptized into SBC. I understand neither would agree with this post.
But that is my understanding of the scriptures. I would like to believe my understanding comes from the Spirit of Truth and I also understand others would say it comes from another spirit. That's ok I am not trying to convert of change I am just stating for discussion my understand which I believe aligns with the word of God.
My education is limited to High School. I have stated many times I know, no Greek nor Hebrew for that matter. I can search the web however that may be a good and evil thing just as eating from the tree.
Forrest Gump: That's all I have to say about that.
Thanks for clarifying. As I said, there was a high chance that I misunderstood your post...which seems the case
a bit early, but "Happy Birthday."
What a mess of confusion you have provided. You confuse spiritual union with propitiation. You confuse justification with propitiation. You confusion regeneration with propitiation. You confuse who Christ is with what Christ did.
You confuse the word "salvation" with "saved" as though the past tense aspect of salvation is all of salvation. You have no clue what you are talking about at all.
Propitiation by your own authorities means "appeasement" or satisfaction and that is WORTHLESS unless you define who it is that needs appeasement, and HOW and WHY Christ can appease. You have no clue!
Again, the Greek term translated "propitiation" is translated "mercy seat" and until you understand the truth surrounding the "mercy seat" on the day of atonement you will continue clueless about the real nature of "propitiation."
Christ is our propitiation to be sure but there are REASONS why He is and those reasons are found in the typology of the "mercy seat" on the day of atonement.
Off track in a way however I started the thread so I guess that will be ok.
All the feast of God followed the Passover.
I assume the Passover to be, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
The day after the Passover the 15th day of the first month, being a holy convocation and the 21st day being a holy convocation. These days had to do with unleavened and or removal of sin.
Are these feasts of God relative to being in Christ? Would there be any, "in Christ," had not Christ our Passover been sacrificed for us?
Two holy convocations, of unleavened, following the sacrifice and then Pentecost.
How is Pentecost a holy convocation relative to us being, "in Christ," or is it?
Are the feast days following of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world relative to our salvation, our being in Christ, relative to the church being built?
Now my real question is this; The Passover took place and then what appears to me things relative to salvation, having sin removed, receiving the Holy Spirit and these things appear to me as being chronological relative to salvation. Question.
Are the feast of the Lord chronologically relative things relative to our salvation? The next feast, holy convocation, the day of trumpets, is it relative to the return of Christ and the redemption of our body?
If yes, why would the next holy convocation, feast, be the day of atonement and how would it be relative to salvation? Esp. relative to your thoughts in your post above?
Not in Christ = unsaved!
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
Calvinism takes gospel clarity to confusion.
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
Calvinism takes gospel clarity to confusion.
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Complete irrational gibberish! Complete non-germane!
No competent theologian would ever argue like this concerning the doctrine of propitiation!
Van does not even abide by his own definition of propitiation - "to appease". Spiritual union "in Christ" does not appease!!!! Being "in Christ" is not propitiation!!
However, who can argue with willful ignorance! None!
Propitiation is the act of appeasement or satisfying an offended Deity. If there was no offence there would be no need to appease or propitiate anyone by anyone.
The term is translated "mercy seat" because without the shedding of blood THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS of sins and it was the blood placed upon the mercy seat that APPEASED/SATISFIED the wrath of God against sinners.
The blood needed to be sprinkled upon all things. However, if it was not poured upon the "mercy seat" but sprinkled upon everything else there would be no forgiveness of sins, no appeasement, no satisfaction, as the "mercy seat" must have blood upon it on the day of atonement.
However, not any blood would do. It had to be the blood taken from a living thing that was "without spot or blemish" because the blood represented the CHARACTER OF LIFE of that living thing.
It had to be blood representing a life without "spot or blemish" because the "mercy seat" was the lid of the Ark containing the Law of God - the standard of God's righteous standard for a life without "spot of blemish." It had to be blood representing a life without "spot or blemish" placed on the "mercy seat" because that represented the very transition point where man and God met in the tabernacle in regard to sin and thus the ark represented Jesus Christ where God and man met in one person. The ark represented Christ and all that it contained. He was the incarnation of righteousness represented by the two tablets. He was the "manna" from heaven. He was the resurrection life represented by the rod of Aaron that budded.
He is the satisfaction of all that God demands for righteousness and for sin and on the cross His blood was shed and God looked upon the suffering of his soul and was "SATISFIED" and thus Christ could and did say "IT IS FINISHED"
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.- Isa. 53:12
Propitiation is SATISFACTION due to being a "righteous servant" that suffered death to "bear their iniquities"
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More ad homenim arguments, more logical fallacies, and more gibberish.
Christ is our propitiatory shelter.
Not in His shelter, unsaved and facing the wrath of God.
In His shelter, forgiven, saved, and propitiated.
Pay no attention to those who redefine words to pour man made doctrine into scripture.
Propitiation is the means of appeasing God, turning aside His wrath.
Propitiation is not a verb, so it is the means of salvation, not the act of salvation.
Christ is our propitiatory shelter.
Not in His shelter, unsaved and facing the wrath of God.
In His shelter, forgiven, saved, and propitiated.
Pay no attention to those who redefine words to pour man made doctrine into scripture.
Propitiation is the means of appeasing God, turning aside His wrath.
Propitiation is not a verb, so it is the means of salvation, not the act of salvation.
What perversion of God's Word. Propitiation is the goal that is achieved by the means, and that is why it is not a verb. The means is Christ and His substitionary life and death, that is is what obtains propitiation or turns away God's wrath from sinners. He would have you to believe that propitiation is the means to obtain itself!!!!
This is elementary to understanding the gospel. Van is preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL. The gospel declares that Jesus Christ and his substitutionary life is THE PROVISIONAL MEANS that obtains propitiation. Van has made the goal to be the means and the means to be the goal.
In other words, Van has repudiated the subsitutionary life and death of Christ as the sole PROVISIONAL MEANS for achieving propitiation or the means by which the wrath of God is appeased/satisfied.
No wonder, he can't grasp the Biblical doctrine of salvation.
More redefining words, more fiction, more gibberish.
When God credits your faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers you spiritually from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Once you arrive in Christ, you are saved, propitiated, justified, made alive, made holy, made blameless, made perfect and so forth. You are forgiven, your sin burden has been removed by the circumcision of Christ.
So simple a child could understand it.
Words have inherent meaning. Pay no attention to those who rewrite scripture by redefining the very words of Christ.
Not in Christ = unsaved!
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
When God credits your faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers you spiritually from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Once you arrive in Christ, you are saved, propitiated, justified, made alive, made holy, made blameless, made perfect and so forth. You are forgiven, your sin burden has been removed by the circumcision of Christ.
So simple a child could understand it.
Words have inherent meaning. Pay no attention to those who rewrite scripture by redefining the very words of Christ.
Not in Christ = unsaved!
In Christ = saved!
Not in Christ = spiritually dead!
In Christ = spiritually alive!
Not in Christ = facing the wrath of God!
In Christ = forgiven, the wrath having been propitiated!
Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation.
The gospel of Christ
!
More absolute false doctrine!! Faith as an abstract thing is not counted for righteousness, but faith that has for its object the substitutionary Person and work as our propitiation is what is counted for righteousness!
Childish and foolish simplicity!!! One does not merely "arrive in Christ" but must be "CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" (Eph. 2;1,5,10) and the power to create is above your pay grade van. That is solely an act of God and it is by the power of His creative word (2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23,25; etc.).
The problem here is that junior believes man can put himself "in Christ"(Jn. 6:44).
More absolute false doctrine!! Faith as an abstract thing is not counted for righteousness, but faith that has for its object the substitutionary Person and work as our propitiation is what is counted for righteousness!
Childish and foolish simplicity!!! One does not merely "arrive in Christ" but must be "CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" (Eph. 2;1,5,10) and the power to create is above your pay grade van. That is solely an act of God and it is by the power of His creative word (2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23,25; etc.).
The problem here is that junior believes man can put himself "in Christ"(Jn. 6:44).
Calvinist said:
NASB said:
Calvinist said:
When God credits your faith in Christ as righteousness, He transfers you spiritually from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. Once you arrive in Christ, you are saved, propitiated, justified, made alive, made holy, made blameless, made perfect and so forth. You are forgiven, your sin burden has been removed by the circumcision of Christ.
Absolutely false and misleading. No quote will be forthcoming. Anyone who pays any attention to what this Calvinist says about the views of others is naive.Calvinist said:
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That is not abstract faith, because it is faith "in" someone. It is the "righteousness" found "in" Christ that is credited to the believer. That is why a sinner believes "in" Christ because the righteousness needed for justification is not found "in" the sinner but "in" the Person and works of Christ - read Paul's final application of this in Romans 4:23-25.
Apparently you can't even understand what you are saying. You are saying the transfer is "spiritually" but no human being is able to do that. Being transferred "spiritually" from "the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son" is the new birth.
Again, believe what you are saying! You said "HE" transfers you. Therefore, the believer is not transferring himself but is BEING TRANSFERRED. That is the new birth because Jesus plainly says one cannot "enter" or "see" that kingdom apart from new birth (Jn. 3:3-5).
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
You say the very REVERSE of what Jesus said. You say he must arrive in the kingdom first, then be born again. Readers, believe Christ rather than Van!!!
Moreover, no human being can transfer themselves "spiritually" from out of one kingdom into another kingdom. So this ARRIVAL is not something YOU DO but is DONE TO YOU as "HE transfers you" or don't you even believe what you are saying?????. But you don't understand or believe in what you even say.
Propitiation is not the consequence of being transferred from one kingdom to another but the LEGAL GROUNDS to make such a transferral possible. Propitiation is what Christ provided so that such a transfer is LEGALLY possible in the eyes of God because any sinner that is without propitiation is still under the wrath of God and still in the kingdom of darkness.
You dont know what you are talking about and it is obvious you don't.
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BTW Jesus says that this new birth is in reference to the kingdom "OF HEAVEN" (Jn. 3:3,5) rather than the kingdom "on earth" as in the model prayer in Matthew 6. New birth must occur FIRST in order to both "see" and "enter" the kingdom "OF HEAVEN" but you reverse this order.