Featured The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

pt

Because it is the power of God unto Salvation unto the ones believing !

No its not according to me, scripture states quite clearly that those in a lost state are having the Gospel hid from them, they are blinded by the god of this world , so that they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

Paul plainly says here that His Gospel is hid to them that are Lost ! What can be more plainer ?

 

pt

Also you can see my post here in reference to that question:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=78636&page=13/post 126

 

Why do you keep ignoring the biggest word in verse 3?
Please, go back and re-read that verse, but remember that the second word, which holds sway over the entire thought of the verse, is IF.

As in, "IF our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." If our gospel is not hidden, then anyone has access to it. Paul's gospel was never hidden. Jesus's gospel was never hidden. The apostles' preaching of the gospel was never hidden. It was all done out in the open. I wrote earlier, pointing out that this thing (the death burial and resurrection of Christ, the gospel) was not done in a corner, where it could be hidden, but was instead done where everyone could see it.

 

pt

Who said I was ignoring it ? If merely means, if they are not believing the Gospel, Paul states the reason why ! They are Lost ! This is pretty simple, The Gospel is the Good News of ones Salvation Eph 1:13, so that cant apply to a Lost person, duh !

 

You have given the "IF" in this verse a far different meaning than it actually has. The IF in question is merely a condition of the gospel. It either is hidden or it is not. IF it is hidden, Paul explains, it is hidden from the lost. Who can hide the gospel? To my knowledge, there are only two beings capable of hiding the gospel: 1) God, if He chooses not to send the gospel, and 2) preachers who sit down on the Word and never preach.

We know that God is willing to send the gospel, because He commissioned the apostles to go a preach, and Paul later explained how others continue to preach, and that preaching is a requirement for people to hear the Word, because faith comes by hearing the preached word. So if God is not hiding the gospel, then it must be preachers hiding the gospel, which is why Paul writes "If OUR gospel be hid..." He's saying if we hide our preaching of the gospel, we do so at the detriment of the lost who need to hear the gospel preached.

Your point of view has basically stripped out the necessity implied in Romans 10 and rendered man completely passive in salvation. Your stated position is that the gospel is only to the saved, and while the gospel can edify a person already saved, it remains the power of God UNTO salvation, which means it ushers people to salvation, not that it reveals a pre-existing salvation.

You quoted Ephesians 1:13, so let's look at it:

Paul writes that they believed in Christ AFTER hearing the gospel. This is antithetical to your stated position. You've actually quoted a verse that tears down the position you are trying to build. You may be trying to read this verse as, saying "you trusted, and then you heard the word," but the intonation I see is that of "you trusted because you had heard the word." The second point of view fits more solidly with the remainder of scripture.

 

pt

Thats your opinion, and its your lame excuse for evading the Truth. Those in a Lost state, cannot believe the Gospel because its being hid from them, and their minds are blinded by the God of this world so that they believe not. You can harp about the word if all you like, its not going to change one bit what the verse teaches !

I know what Paul wrote, I am the one who brought the verse up to make my point, and to be more accurate, its after hearing the Gospel of YOUR SALVATION. Now read, dont be flippant and clumsy with Truth Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The word your hymōn is a pronoun which means of yours, it denotes possession, they had in possession Salvation at the time they heard, and believing followed afterwards.

In order for it to be the Gospel of their Salvation, it has to be theirs by possession, and they cannot be in a lost state. A lost person does not possess salvation, do you understand that ?

 

While I am frustrated by your opinions, savedbymercy, I would never call them lame. That's a very juvenile response.

So, just to make sure I understand, a lost person does not need to hear the gospel to be saved?

 

pt

No you are frustrated with the scripture I uphold, it contradicts your human tradidtions and false beliefs !

Rehearse with me exactly what I posted, thats how you understand what I specifically stated. Now begin !

 

I told you that my interpretation upholds a different tradition of scripture. There are others here that agree with me. In every case where someone was preached to, they then moved toward God and were saved. The Ethiopian eunuch, the Philippian jailer, the gathered masses at Pentecost, all these came to salvation the way that Paul lays out in Romans 10. You've grabbed one verse in Ephesians and, if I may be as blunt as you are being, twisted it to change the meaning of all these other instances. Suddenly, in your interpretation, the Ethiopian was already saved before Phillip got there. The jailer and his household, likewise, must have been saved long before Paul was ever cast in prison. Pentecost must have been the greatest gathering of saved souls this side of Glory, even before Peter began preaching.

So you just want others to repeat after you, eh? The way we understand you is just to say what you say... No, not gonna do it.

 

pt

You are not sincere in wanting to understand what I stated. You are using your question as an evasion tatic to avoid what I stated with scripture ! If you are going to be like that, then just dont respond to my posts !

Until you show me you have the capacity to understand what I posted, regardless if you agree or not, then I have no reason to believe you will ever understand what I have stated !

 

I have given a rebuttal to every verse you have posted. I have shown how you have taken them out of context, used them as pretexts to defend a doctrine which is erroneous and not in the Scriptures.
Your only claim is a basic: "I am right and you are wrong," without showing how. Furthermore you make the ridiculous claim that I am adding to the Scripture, when indeed I am only showing you the context, which as usual you totally ignore. If this is how you "rightly divide the word of truth" what hope is there? Why even debate?

Romans chapter two is addressed to Jews, physical Jews:
Right from verse one:
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
--"Thou art inexcusable O man (Israel). Why? Because they judged themselves better than the Gentiles, when they themselves did the same things.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
--It is important why he mentions the Jew in this passage.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
--Is this direct enough??

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
--It was the Jew that boasted in the law, not the Gentile.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
--It was the Jew that considered circumcision as profitable, not the Gentile.

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
--He is still addressing the Jews who are under the law about the profitability of circumcision

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--The profit of circumcision and the Jew. That has been the topic here. None of this relates to the Gentile. The entire chapter is directed to the nation of Israel, and their standing before God.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Then you say:
"2 Cor 4:3-4 verified that, then those in the flesh cannot please God."[/]
Again, it is jerked out of context and misinterpreted.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
--First, Paul is denouncing false teachers: the Judaizers, those that add circumcision and the keeping of the law as requirements to salvation. He also speaks of their oratorical skills, their persuasiveness in speaking, but their dishonesty in speaking this false gospel, which in Gal.1:6-10 he declared to be "another gospel."
Paul preached the truth. He renounced the hidden things...

Therefore:
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--His gospel was not hid.
IF his gospel was hid or veiled. It was not hid. He had renounced the hidden things of darkness, and the gospel was a message, "the glorious gospel of Christ...that should shine unto them." (vs.4). It was not hid at all. Why would Paul hide his own message, the glorious gospel of Christ? You tell me!

IF it is hid, it is hid to them that are lost. But it is not hid.
Many were saved by this glorious gospel.
Those that were not saved were those that deliberately rejected it, and they were aided and abetted by the devil himself who further helped in blinding their eyes. But the rejection first came by their own accord.
Who is greater: the Holy Spirit or the Devil? Which one.

 

Why is it you refuse to answer such questions? Is it because you can't?
Only a lost person can be saved. Thus the gospel is for the lost.

 

dhk

They are not valid. You just do a lot of posting out of pride and say nothing ! You go into all this context and at the end of the day, say absolutely nothing, just trifling with God's word in order to evade the Truth !

Being a jew inwardly has nothing to do with being a ethnic jew, and the Book of Romans is written to the Church of Christ, Believers at Rome, which happen to be both jew and Gentiles, there is no race separation in Christ !

Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

He is writing to those who have faith, so we can do without your segregation comments !

 

I'm glad you know my heart, as to know whether I am sincere or not. I would genuinely like to know how you came to hold such an erroneous doctrine. We have the entire Bible, and the history of teaching of the Bible, that all states the gospel is for the lost, as it is the power of God unto salvation, and only the lost can be saved.

I really just want to shout out, "Thankfully, in January 2015, a shining light came along that taught us that the gospel was actually only for the saved, and could only be heard and understood by the already saved."

I cannot prove my capacity for understanding by rehearsing what you said, as I will not repeat your false doctrine. I will gladly review it with you, as that might be the only way in which you come to recognize the error of this teaching you are adopting. In fact, I have reviewed it with you, as I have quoted you almost every step of the way in my efforts to respond. I just don't understand how you've come to the point that taking a single verse out of its inherent context and turning it on its head so that it seemingly negates longstanding and well-scripturally-established doctrines is the proper way to establish a theological system.

 

They are valid points.
1. You have demonstrated clearly how you simply dismiss scripture.
2. You have just shown how easily it is for you to attribute false motive.
3, You demonstrate that the work ethic I put into these posts "are nothing," and therefore are not worthy of your consideration, a position of pride. Therefore why continue the debate? For what purpose are you here. Be honest. If you are not here to debate and learn then you are welcome to go elsewhere.

I demonstrated to you that the entire chapter was written addressing or written about the Jews. It was irrefutable.
You came back quoting from the introduction of the letter, Paul's greeting to the church at Rome. Try starting from 1:16 instead.
Look here:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
--In chapter one he is addressing the Gentiles (to the exclusion of his greeting). Read the last section of the chapter.
Pick up a basic NT Survey book. Do some of your own homework.
I am not wrong on this.
You cannot ignore the context of the passage simply to take the text as pretext to prove your own pet doctrine. That is what cults do. Learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

 

And there is is. The Calvinist plays the "I'm smarter than you and you're too dumb to understand my theology" card.

This one is a bit different than most because questions asked in an effort to understand are brushed aside as diversions. I haven't seen that tactic used too often.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that's a Calvinist tactic. It's a savedbymercy tactic. Look at any of his posts. He doesn't debate or discuss. His answer is almost literally 100% "go over my points with me so I know you understood them". Any questions directed towards him are immediately dismissed by that answer.

 

I know what you reval by your post actions. How can you want to understand what I said when you evade what I said. You use that as a evasion tatic from what I stated ! Please review and show me that you understand post 180 !

 

No they are not valid points ! And those in Acts 7 couldn't believe on Christ because they were not of God, they were uncircumcised in ears and heart, spiritually dead ! A person must be of God to Hear God's words in a spiritual way, that is what Jesus stated John 8:47 ! To be of God is to be born of God !

 

And that very thing happens alot by many cals around here.