The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[savedbymercy]

To paraphrase DHK, you're not really doing anything but setting one set of scripture against another. You are also making tenuous connections that ought not be made. Heb 11:6 says "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." According to your logic, there is none that can seek God, because the lost cannot understand His word. And we are all, at one time or another, lost. Unless you believe that some are saved from the beginning, in which case the preaching of the gospel is meaningless, Paul was incorrect in his writing, and pretty much every church would have to close down.

Time after time the Bible states that salvation comes AFTER believing, AFTER hearing the gospel preached. You have actually said the gospel is not for the lost. Paul said the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto salvation. That means, unless I am incredibly mistaken, that the gospel is the vehicle by which man is convicted of sin and drawn unto repentance. From what I've gathered from you, you seem to think Paul should've written that the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto the already saved.

You don't believe the truth that I have put forth ! A lost person cannot believe the Gospel, cannot hear it, I have shown scripture for that !

 

[PreachTony]

You don't believe the truth that I have put forth ! A lost person cannot believe the Gospel, cannot hear it, I have shown scripture for that !

You seem to be advocating a static universe in which those that were saved were saved from eternity past and those that were damned were damned from eternity past. Reading John 8 in context, rather than just the verse you pulled out, shows Jesus confronting the Pharisees in the Temple. He's dealing with a group of self-righteous religious men who believed themselves to be representatives of God.

There are lost people who get saved. There are lost people who remain lost. The universe is not as static as your point seems to make it. Only if a person is already saved from birth can your point really stand (even if that salvation doesn't kick in until later in life, seeing as, apparently, the person had no choice to accept or reject that salvation).

 

[DHK]

There is no need, because you are evading my points. A person cannot hear or believe God's Words in a Lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4 ; Jn 8:47 ; Rom 8:8

Ripping scripture out of context is not the way to prove your point.
What was Jesus demonstrating in John 8?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
--They were not of God, IOW, not true believers, or not true Jews. They called themselves Pharisees but unlike the Apostles they did not believe. Now look at the contrast Jesus makes.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
--In contrast to the Jews, the father of their nation (whom they said they were the children of) was a believing "Jew". He put his faith in Jehovah, whereas they didn't. This is the comparison he was making.
--In no way does this teach that the gospel is to believers only.
CONTEXT!!

Again look at the context:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul is writing to believers, not the lost.
The teaching here is that Carnal Christians cannot please God.
What you do in the flesh cannot please God. When you pray, and your mind is elsewhere, or if it just for show, it does not please God. This is directed to believers.
James 4:4 teaches the same thing and is worded even with stronger language than this:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--Doing things of the flesh, living like the world; James says you are the enemy of God even though you are a Christian. How is that for an indictment. Go ahead: smoke your cigarette; drink your alcoholic beverage; go to the bar; live it up. God says you are the enemy of God. That is the Christian "who is in the flesh and cannot please God." He is writing to believers.
CONTEXT!!

You made mention that Paul was ready to preach to all in Rome Rom 1:15

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Yes, the Gospel can be preached to everyone in sight, however its only designed in the purpose of God to be a word of Salvation to the saved !

Can be??
It is commanded to be!
"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Great Commission commands us to go and preach the gospel to ALL that are in the world, not just the elect. Certainly it is efficacious only to those believe. Both Cals and non-Cals alike believe that.

When a sower goes out to sow the word of God, the word lands upon different types of soils, but only one soil does it bear fruit upon, the good soil Matt 13:23

No argument, but it has to be sown on all types of soil, doesn't it?

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

You are making my point. It is sown to all soils. We are witnesses. It is God that gives the increase.

Now many hear it but dont understand it, because its not received into good ground, which I believe stands for a new heart !

So you can get all the scripture you want, not one of them will affirm that a Lost person can hear, understand and believe the Gospel !

It is our duty to preach the gospel. It is our duty to witness to the lost (Acts 1:8). We must plant, water, but it is God that gives the increase.

 

[savedbymercy]

Ripping scripture out of context is not the way to prove your point.
What was Jesus demonstrating in John 8?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
--They were not of God, IOW, not true believers, or not true Jews. They called themselves Pharisees but unlike the Apostles they did not believe. Now look at the contrast Jesus makes.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
--In contrast to the Jews, the father of their nation (whom they said they were the children of) was a believing "Jew". He put his faith in Jehovah, whereas they didn't. This is the comparison he was making.
--In no way does this teach that the gospel is to believers only.
CONTEXT!!

Again look at the context:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul is writing to believers, not the lost.
The teaching here is that Carnal Christians cannot please God.
What you do in the flesh cannot please God. When you pray, and your mind is elsewhere, or if it just for show, it does not please God. This is directed to believers.
James 4:4 teaches the same thing and is worded even with stronger language than this:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--Doing things of the flesh, living like the world; James says you are the enemy of God even though you are a Christian. How is that for an indictment. Go ahead: smoke your cigarette; drink your alcoholic beverage; go to the bar; live it up. God says you are the enemy of God. That is the Christian "who is in the flesh and cannot please God." He is writing to believers.
CONTEXT!!

Can be??
It is commanded to be!
"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Great Commission commands us to go and preach the gospel to ALL that are in the world, not just the elect. Certainly it is efficacious only to those believe. Both Cals and non-Cals alike believe that.

No argument, but it has to be sown on all types of soil, doesn't it?

You are making my point. It is sown to all soils. We are witnesses. It is God that gives the increase.

It is our duty to preach the gospel. It is our duty to witness to the lost (Acts 1:8). We must plant, water, but it is God that gives the increase.

Where does it say anything about preaching to the lost ? The Gospel to the lost is foolishness, and they are blinded to it, but to the saved it is good news of their Salvation !

 

[DHK]

Where does it say anything about preaching to the lost ? The Gospel to the lost is foolishness, and they are blinded to it, but to the saved it is good news of their Salvation !

It only became foolishness to the Greeks when they heard it.
It only became a stumbling block to the Jews when they heard it.
Had they not heard it, it wouldn't have been foolishness, neither a stumbling block would it? They had to hear it first in order for that conclusion to be drawn.

 

[DHK]

So you can get all the scripture you want, not one of them will affirm that a Lost person can hear, understand and believe the Gospel !

I like this answer you originally gave. It is a typical Calvinist answer.

It goes like this:
"So you can get all the Scripture you want,"...I am going to ignore it; I won't answer it. I know I am right and everyone else is wrong. Your scripture doesn't matter to me.

Right?

 

[savedbymercy]

It only became foolishness to the Greeks when they heard it.
It only became a stumbling block to the Jews when they heard it.
Had they not heard it, it wouldn't have been foolishness, neither a stumbling block would it? They had to hear it first in order for that conclusion to be drawn.

The Gospel is hid from and foolishness to them that are lost, jew or Gentile 1 Cor 1:18 ! The word perish here is the same word for lost in 2 Cor 4:3 !

 

[savedbymercy]

Ripping scripture out of context is not the way to prove your point.
What was Jesus demonstrating in John 8?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
--They were not of God, IOW, not true believers, or not true Jews. They called themselves Pharisees but unlike the Apostles they did not believe. Now look at the contrast Jesus makes.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
--In contrast to the Jews, the father of their nation (whom they said they were the children of) was a believing "Jew". He put his faith in Jehovah, whereas they didn't. This is the comparison he was making.
--In no way does this teach that the gospel is to believers only.
CONTEXT!!

Again look at the context:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul is writing to believers, not the lost.
The teaching here is that Carnal Christians cannot please God.
What you do in the flesh cannot please God. When you pray, and your mind is elsewhere, or if it just for show, it does not please God. This is directed to believers.
James 4:4 teaches the same thing and is worded even with stronger language than this:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--Doing things of the flesh, living like the world; James says you are the enemy of God even though you are a Christian. How is that for an indictment. Go ahead: smoke your cigarette; drink your alcoholic beverage; go to the bar; live it up. God says you are the enemy of God. That is the Christian "who is in the flesh and cannot please God." He is writing to believers.
CONTEXT!!

Can be??
It is commanded to be!
"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Great Commission commands us to go and preach the gospel to ALL that are in the world, not just the elect. Certainly it is efficacious only to those believe. Both Cals and non-Cals alike believe that.

No argument, but it has to be sown on all types of soil, doesn't it?

You are making my point. It is sown to all soils. We are witnesses. It is God that gives the increase.

It is our duty to preach the gospel. It is our duty to witness to the lost (Acts 1:8). We must plant, water, but it is God that gives the increase.

Who said that the Gospel shouldn't be preached to all ? I didn't ! My point is that the Gospel is not a word of Salvation to the lost ! To them that are lost it is foolishness 1 Cor 1:18 and it's truthfulness is being hid from them, because in a lost state they are blinded by the god of this world 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! It's preached to the lost a lot of times, but they cannot hear it [ Spiritually ] nor believe it or obey it !

 

[DHK]

Who said that the Gospel shouldn't be preached to all ? I didn't ! My point is that the Gospel is not a word of Salvation to the lost ! To them that are lost it is foolishness 1 Cor 1:18 and it's truthfulness is being hid from them, because in a lost state they are blinded by the god of this world 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! It's preached to the lost a lot of times, but they cannot hear it [ Spiritually ] nor believe it or obey it !

For this to make sense to you let's personalize it.
Were you at one time, dead in your sins, and in a lost condition? Yes or no.

Did you hear the gospel?

Did you hear the gospel more than once?

Did you reject the gospel the first time and possibly other times?

Therefore, was the gospel for you, a lost person? Yes or no?

Does faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

Was it the gospel that brought you to Christ?

Is it possible for you to come to Christ without faith in the gospel?

Is it possible for any man to come to Christ without faith in the gospel?

Is not the gospel therefore for the lost, for them that are perishing to come to Christ, just as you were?

Without the gospel you could not be saved; you were doomed to Hell, an eternity without Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

For this to make sense to you let's personalize it.
Were you at one time, dead in your sins, and in a lost condition? Yes or no.

Did you hear the gospel?

Did you hear the gospel more than once?

Did you reject the gospel the first time and possibly other times?

Therefore, was the gospel for you, a lost person? Yes or no?

Does faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

Was it the gospel that brought you to Christ?

Is it possible for you to come to Christ without faith in the gospel?

Is it possible for any man to come to Christ without faith in the gospel?

Is not the gospel therefore for the lost, for them that are perishing to come to Christ, just as you were?

Without the gospel you could not be saved; you were doomed to Hell, an eternity without Christ.

This thread is not going to be about me, but the scriptures ! I'm letting you know that now ! You are just being evasive from the truth !

 

[DHK]

This thread is not going to be about me, but the scriptures ! I'm letting you know that now ! You are just being evasive from the truth !

Sorry, scriptures have no meaning apart from their relevance and application to individuals. What you are demonstrating is that you have no Christian testimony to share.
Really? Are you saved? Can you share your testimony? Almost every Christian is certainly happy to share how they got saved.
How many times did Paul share his testimony after he got saved? It was plenty. And many of them are recorded for us in the Book of Acts.

 

[savedbymercy]

Sorry, scriptures have no meaning apart from their relevance and application to individuals. What you are demonstrating is that you have no Christian testimony to share.
Really? Are you saved? Can you share your testimony? Almost every Christian is certainly happy to share how they got saved.
How many times did Paul share his testimony after he got saved? It was plenty. And many of them are recorded for us in the Book of Acts.

Also I don't care to hear about your personal experience, I am interested only in the Testimony of the Scriptures !

Again a lost person cannot believe the Gospel, it is foolishness to him or her, that is not my opinion, it is what the scripture says right here 1 Cor 1:18 !

While in a lost state the Gospel is being hid from the lost person so how are they going to believe that which is hid from them and their minds blinded to ? 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[InTheLight]

Again a lost person cannot believe the Gospel, it is foolishness to him or her, that is not my opinion, it is what the scripture says right here 1 Cor 1:18 !

While in a lost state the Gospel is being hid from the lost person so how are they going to believe that which is hid from them and their minds blinded to ? 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

Paul sat and discussed Christ and Christianity with King Agrippa in Acts 26. Finally, he pops the question:

27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am..." [a born again Christian]

So, if the gospel is foolishness to the lost why did King Agrippa admit that he was understanding it and almost persuaded?

Why did Paul say that he wished everyone would become a Christian if people are elected to damnation?

Hmmm....???!!

 

[savedbymercy]

Paul sat and discussed Christ and Christianity with King Agrippa in Acts 26. Finally, he pops the question:

27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am..." [a born again Christian]

So, if the gospel is foolishness to the lost why did King Agrippa admit that he was understanding it and almost persuaded?

Why did Paul say that he wished everyone would become a Christian if people are elected to damnation?

Hmmm....???!!

No one said that the Gospel cannot be discussed with the lost !

 

[DHK]

Also I don't care to hear about your personal experience, I am interested only in the Testimony of the Scriptures !

You should be interested in your own testimony. I am.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--The scriptures are interested in your testimony.
By the scriptures your testimony is judged.

Again a lost person cannot believe the Gospel,

Is this an admission that you were never lost? If you were never lost then you were never saved. Only the lost can be saved. Think about it.

it is foolishness to him or her, that is not my opinion, it is what the scripture says right here 1 Cor 1:18 !

It is foolish because they heard it; they rejected it. However, there may come a time when they may hear it again and it won't be foolishness to them, and then they may trust him.
Did it ever occur to you that Saul, as he was holding the clothes of Stephen, heard a powerful gospel message at that time, but in spite of your belief in irresistible grace, resisted that grace and remained unsaved. He was lost, until chapter nine.

While in a lost state the Gospel is being hid from the lost person so how are they going to believe that which is hid from them and their minds blinded to ? 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
The Greek word is "veiled."
Now compare scripture with scripture:
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
--God uses men, His own, to bring those that are perishing and "blind" to himself. He uses them because they ought to be obeying the Great Commission and telling them about Christ that can save them.
How is a man born again?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
One can neither be regenerated nor saved without the Word of God.

 

[InTheLight]

No one said that the Gospel cannot be discussed with the lost !

Why did King Agrippa admit that he was understanding it and almost persuaded?

Why did Paul say that he wished everyone would become a Christian if people are elected to damnation?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No one said that the Gospel cannot be discussed with the lost !

Define lost for me would ya! Is it those who are willfully lost via making their own choices to not believe....or is it thems that never are given the grace of the HS? Cause I gotta tell ya that these athiestics are not on my Christmas list!

 

[savedbymercy]

Define lost for me would ya! Is it those who are willfully lost via making their own choices to not believe....or is it thems that never are given the grace of the HS? Cause I gotta tell ya that these athiestics are not on my Christmas list!

All men are born sinfully lost, dead in sin, in the flesh, so what are you talking about ?

 

[savedbymercy]

Why did King Agrippa admit that he was understanding it and almost persuaded?

Why did Paul say that he wished everyone would become a Christian if people are elected to damnation?

It doesn't matter what King Agrippa said, he is not God, for what does Gods word say ? A lost person cannot believe the Gospel because while they're in a lost state the Gospel is hid from them that they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[savedbymercy]

You should be interested in your own testimony. I am.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--The scriptures are interested in your testimony.
By the scriptures your testimony is judged.

Is this an admission that you were never lost? If you were never lost then you were never saved. Only the lost can be saved. Think about it.

It is foolish because they heard it; they rejected it. However, there may come a time when they may hear it again and it won't be foolishness to them, and then they may trust him.
Did it ever occur to you that Saul, as he was holding the clothes of Stephen, heard a powerful gospel message at that time, but in spite of your belief in irresistible grace, resisted that grace and remained unsaved. He was lost, until chapter nine.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
The Greek word is "veiled."
Now compare scripture with scripture:
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
--God uses men, His own, to bring those that are perishing and "blind" to himself. He uses them because they ought to be obeying the Great Commission and telling them about Christ that can save them.
How is a man born again?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
One can neither be regenerated nor saved without the Word of God.

Those in a lost state cannot believe the Gospel because while they're in that state, they are blinded by the god of this world to believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! Also Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God with Faith Rom 8:8 !