The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[OldRegular]

OK board...then answer for me this simple question, do you believe that God wrought David’s work in him related to the Bathsheba and Uriah affair?

EWF

In an earlier post you said:

I am still wondering why they call salvation by grace theology Calvinism. I certainly dontwant to be associated with infant baptism, with sacrimental stuff, with inherited grace yada yada. Rather, I am a sinner saved by Gods grace and mercy and through that I have been given a conscience and thus become a moral person responsible for my Christian walk. What always gets missed is Gods moral governance in mans spiritual development....that we are given the freedom to make moral decisions for ourselves.

I believe firmly in the Sovereignty of God and in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I also believe, like you, that when He saves us God changes our moral compass and we are responsible for our walk as a Christian. Scripture tells us:

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Thankfully God forgives us when we sin but He does not necessarily remove the temporal consequences of that sin.

I have heard of some extreme Calvinists who say: "If I step in front of a speeding locomotive and God doesn't want me to die I want!" Well there is some truth in that. However, Jesus Christ said in response to the efforts of Satan to tempt Him: Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So if any ardent Calvinist is foolish enough to step in front of a speeding locomotive don't expect any help from God!

 

[savedbymercy]

I have responded to the following asinine claim that God is the author of sin.
My response:



Instead of squalling rabbit trail every time someone takes you to task for your blasphemy you would do well to pray to God for His mercy! You take Scripture completely out of context, philosophize a wee bit about it, then draw your asinine and blasphemous conclusions, and expect folks to dance to your hellish tune.

You did not prove it wasnt evasive, but only confirmed it !

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry I've been missing in action guys, but have been busy with my studies, family, work etc....

I did have a article picked up by SBCToday if anyone is interested in it.... www.sbctoday.com

It is my story...

Blessings!

Here is a link directly to the article: http://sbctoday.com/the-five-points-that-lead-me-out-of-calvinism-part-one/

Just curious how it is so hard and wrong to believe that God is Sovereign in salvation, as if we hold to the actual fall of man, how can there real "free will" salvation being offerred by God then?

 

[BobRyan]

Just curious how it is so hard and wrong to believe that God is Sovereign in salvation, as if we hold to the actual fall of man, how can there real "free will" salvation being offerred by God then?

As we saw here -- #1 God sovereignly chose a "Free will" system which is the only way this result can happen.

The other big indication that the arbitrary selection combined with irresistible grace idea does not work is that God's own stated lament does not work in that model.

================================================




[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

As we saw here -- #1 God sovereignly chose a "Free will" system which is the only way this result can happen.

How can God chose that way to have lost saved, since He knows that none can come on their own to Him, as a direct result of the fall though?

 

[BobRyan]

All powerful - supernatural infinite God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- overcoming all the depravity necessary to "Draw ALL unto Him" John 12:32 - and stopping short of making them born-agan or robots - just allowing them to make their choice.

Which is the only way to get 'what more could I HAVE DONE" result to be even possible in God's lament.

That is a show-stopper for 4 and 5 point Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob



in Christ,
Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Salvation and the new birth is a response to the choice made in these texts.

And that choice is 'enabled' by God in such a way that the "lament" texts are not voided. Which means God stops short of robotizing and short of causing the new birth prior to choice.

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation and the new birth is a response to the choice made in these texts.

And that choice is 'enabled' by God in such a way that the "lament" texts are not voided. Which means God stops short of robotizing and short of causing the new birth prior to choice.

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

the truth is opposite of wehat your church has drilled into you though, as the scriptures clearly teach that whoever gets saved is due to the will and power of God, and that salvation in totally free/NO conditions, and is Eternal!

 

[savedbymercy]

br

Salvation and the new birth is a response to the choice made in these texts.

And that choice is 'enabled' by God in such a way that the "lament" texts are not voided. Which means God stops short of robotizing and short of causing the new birth prior to choice.

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Inavalid statements, nothing about Salvation being the result of choices made by man ! Faith is a response to the Preached word, and Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 but the scripture is quite plain that those in the flesh, the lost person, cannot please God Rom 8:8 therefore he or she cannot respond in Faith that pleases God !

 

[BobRyan]

the truth is opposite of wehat your church has drilled <obligatory rant deleted here>

Respond to the texts in the post - as they pertain to the point made please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Salvation and the new birth is a response to the choice made in these texts.

And that choice is 'enabled' by God in such a way that the "lament" texts are not voided. Which means God stops short of robotizing and short of causing the new birth prior to choice.

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

br
Inavalid statements, nothing about Salvation being the result of choices !

is that merely an "opinion post" - or did you have an actual text as listed above that you were going to be willing to actually respond to?

 

[savedbymercy]

is that merely an "opinion post" - or did you have an actual text as listed above that you were going to be willing to actually respond to?

Read the post of mine, you just quoted from, duh !

 

[BobRyan]

br



Inavalid statements, nothing about Salvation being the result of choices made by man !

Until you read Romans 10 stating explicitly as to what "results in righteousness" and what "results in salvation".

Which is the standing problem for Calvinism.

br
Faith is a response to the Preached word,

Faith is "enabled" by the drawing of God.

"I STAND at the door and knock - if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

For with the heart man believes "resulting in righteousness" and with the mouth man confesses "resulting in salvation"

Thus God is able to - convict the world and enable the lost to "choose" to believe and to choose to confess. "Resulting in salvation".

and Faith pleases God Heb 11:6

Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you"

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking".

The "lament of God" texts work - in the arminian system and they refute the calvinist one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

Until you read Romans 10 stating explicitly as to what "results in righteousness" and what "results in salvation".

Which is the standing problem for Calvinism.




Faith is "enabled" by the drawing of God.

"I STAND at the door and knock - if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

For with the heart man believes "resulting in righteousness" and with the mouth man confesses "resulting in salvation"

Thus God is able to - convict the world and enable the lost to "choose" to believe and to choose to confess. "Resulting in salvation".



Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you"

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking".

The "lament of God" texts work - in the arminian system and they refute the calvinist one.

in Christ,

Bob

Those in the flesh cannot please God, sorry !

 

[BobRyan]

Those in the flesh cannot please God, sorry !

God so LOVED the World that He gave ... not so sorry

God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment - not so sorry.

Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you"

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking".

The "lament of God" texts work - in the arminian system and they refute the calvinist one.

 

[BobRyan]

Which brings us back to Calvinism's blind spot...

The other big indication that the arbitrary selection combined with irresistible grace idea does not work is that God's own stated lament does not work in that model.

Notice that john 1 does not say "HE came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN did not please Him so he ditched them"

================================================




[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[savedbymercy]

is that merely an "opinion post" - or did you have an actual text as listed above that you were going to be willing to actually respond to?

God so LOVED the World that He gave ... not so sorry

God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment - not so sorry.

Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you"

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking".

The "lament of God" texts work - in the arminian system and they refute the calvinist one.

Faith Pleases God Heb 11:6, but unfortunately, men in the flesh, never born again, cannot please God Rom 8:8 therefore men in the flesh ,not born again, CANNOT PUT FAITH IN CHRIST !

 

[BobRyan]

Faith Pleases God Heb 11:6,

That is true - and the saved saints have faith --

But the Gospel goes out to the lost, unsaved - "For God so LOVED the World that HE gave..." John 3:16

Calvinism stumbles first and foremost at John 3:16.

God so LOVED the World that He gave ... not so sorry

God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment - not so sorry.

Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you" -John 12:32

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking". Rev 3

The "lament of God" texts work - in the arminian system and they refute the calvinist one.

In the "lament of God" post - #116 we have Calvinism grinding to halt. A dead stand still.

 

[savedbymercy]

bob ryan

But the Gospel goes out to the lost, unsaved

They cant please God, they cannot have Faith, so the Gospel to them is a Savor of Death unto Death !

Paul makes it clear that the Gospel is being hid to them that are Lost, satan has blinded their minds so that they believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In other words, they that are Lost are still Judicially blinded and the Gospel is being hid from them, which results in unbelief !

You cant believe the Gospel while in a Lost state !

You cannot please God while in a Lost state !

 

[PreachTony]

You cant believe the Gospel while in a Lost state !

If you cannot believe believe prior to salvation, then why was the Philippian jailer told "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31) That states that salvation comes after belief, but you seem to be proposing that belief comes after salvation. This passage indicates you are saved because you believe. You seem to be saying you believe because you are saved.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

According to that verse, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, meaning that salvation comes after the gospel.

I can't believe I have to keep going back to this scripture with you, savedbymercy, but...

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

According to this passage, faith, which we are told is a key component of our salvation (saved by grace through faith), comes after hearing the preached word (the gospel).