The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[savedbymercy]

jonc

And this is not an example of why.

It is to me, it doesnt matter if its not to you ! By Nature man is spiritually dead, Illustrated as how Lazarus was physically dead ! Just as an physically dead person cannot respond, neither can a Spiritually dead person respond, without first being made alive by an miraculous resurrection !

 

[savedbymercy]

br

Romans 8:4-9 makes the case between the saved and the lost.

Thats what makes my point, those in the flesh are spiritually lost, dead in sin, and cannot please God, so a lost person cannot put faith in Christ for Salvation since that would please God. The Rom 8:8 scripture says this:

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

That word cannot means they dont have the ability to do it !

the lost are not able to obey the Law of God.

Thats right, and Faith is part of the Law of God, I have showed that already Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And so those Lost, in the flesh, not born again, cannot obey the command to believe on Christ !

 

[JonC]

jonc
It is to me, it doesnt matter if its not to you !

I believe lima beans are disgusting and that it would be stupid to eat disgusting things. Therefore I believe that people who eat lima beans are stupid.

The first sentence is fine, it is my subjective belief and reflects my understanding. If I truly hold the second sentence to be true then it reflects an error on my part.

I believe that the Truths of Tulip, what they represent, are nothing short of the proclaiming the Truths of the Gospel of God's Grace and Why !

This is your understanding. TULIP is not Scripture, but instead is systematically derived by reasoning out Scripture. Whether I agree with you here is not the issue…this is perfectly fine to believe. It is your understanding.

I believe therefore to reject them is equally rejecting the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ !

This, however, is an erroneous belief. Yes, of course you can hold it, but you cannot hold it and be correct, that’s my only point. Many accept the Gospel of God’s Grace in Christ yet reject TULIP. Many Calvinists and non-Calvinists reject TULIP, yet they affirm the Gospel of God’s Grace in Christ.

While you can believe your statement (you can also believe the world is flat, the moon is made of cheese, etc.) and that can be “truth” to you, actual truth is less subjective. What you believe does not change what is. The mere fact that there are Christians who affirm the gospel of God's grace in Christ yet reject TULIP should be a strong indicator that your belief is incorrect. This is why I suggested you alter your belief to holding their views inconsistent (which would still be opinion, but at least it would not be obviously wrong).

 

[OldRegular]

God ordains or permits evil. But, really, it's more than "ordains" or "permits," but it's also much less than "commands."

There are several facts that scripture presents:

1. God is absolutely sovereign.

2. Man is entirely responsible for his actions.

3. God intends the evil that men do for His own purposes, yet He doesn't cause the evil that they do.

These things do create a tension, but to have a truly biblical theology, there must be a proper synthesis of these facts into one cogent theology. If a proper synthesis doesn't happen, it is likely one will fall into Pelagianism or Hyper-Calvinism, neither of which is at all acceptable.

The Archangel

Well said! However I believe I would present point #3 as follows:

3. God uses the evil that men do for His own purposes, yet He doesn't cause the evil that they do.

You mention the tensions created by your three points. I believe that are other tensions created by Scripture: The Doctrine of the Trinity and the extent of the Atonement for example.

 

[savedbymercy]

Well said! However I believe I would present point #3 as follows:

3. God uses the evil that men do for His own purposes, yet He doesn't cause the evil that they do.

You mention the tensions created by your three points. I believe that are other tensions created by Scripture: The Doctrine of the Trinity and the extent of the Atonement for example.

God is not the doer of sin or mans evil, but the first cause of it, He is ! How can one do anything except God gives them a being to do it ?

 

[JonC]

God is not the doer of sin or mans evil, but the first cause of it, He is ! How can one do anything except God gives them a being to do it ?

I understand the philosophical argument that places God as the first cause of evil. This is, unfortunately, a view that many have adopted in spite of Scripture attesting otherwise. It misplaces evil as originating with God rather than man, and IMHO misunderstands evil in its entirety (evil is not a "thing" to be created). I doubt many Calvinists centuries ago would combat the charge that Calvinism makes God the author of evil by accepting the claim as true, but this is unfortunately often the case today. But no, God is not the author (first or otherwise) of evil.

 

[Benjamin]

However I believe I would present point #3 as follows:

3. God uses the evil that men do for His own purposes, yet He doesn't cause the evil that they do.

:thumbs:Yeah, I find that "intends the evil" business "deeply troubling".

 

[MB]

br



Thats what makes my point, those in the flesh are spiritually lost, dead in sin, and cannot please God, so a lost person cannot put faith in Christ for Salvation since that would please God. The Rom 8:8 scripture says this:

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

That word cannot means they dont have the ability to do it !



Thats right, and Faith is part of the Law of God, I have showed that already Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And so those Lost, in the flesh, not born again, cannot obey the command to believe on Christ !

Nonsense! we have all obeyed the laws of God because they are also the Laws of man. Even though we also break those same Laws from time to time.
MB

 

[InTheLight]

Nonsense! we have all obeyed the laws of God because they are also the Laws of man. Even though we also break those same Laws from time to time.
MB

MB, you need to know that savedbymercy has a monomaniacal fascination with Matt. 23:23 asserting that "faith" is a weightier matter of the law and therefore faith is a work. An entire theology by savedbymercy is based on this single verse from the KJV.

It's hilarious because the word the KJV renders "faith" in this verse should be translated "faithfulness".

Much unproductive discussion (I use the word discussion loosely) has been bandied about over this verse. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97111

 

[savedbymercy]

mb

Nonsense!

Tell that to the scripture I showed you, God's Word !

 

[savedbymercy]

jc

I understand the philosophical argument that places God as the first cause of evil.

Is that what you want to call it ? Can someone sin who does not exist ?

 

[JonC]

Is that what you want to call it ?

Yes...I just called it that.

Can someone sin who does not exist ?

That does not mean that God authored the evil that is done by His creation. You come to that conclusion through reasoning out exactly where responsibility begins and ends...i.e., philosophical reasoning. If you started and stopped with Scripture then you could not go beyond denying God as the author of sin. But your reasoning leads you to exactly the opposite of what the Bible says of God.

I don't know if it is even worth going further and discussing whether or not there is a "thing" as evil or if evil can truthfully be said to have been "created." At least not as long as your reasoning trumps Scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

God is not the doer of sin or mans evil, but the first cause of it, He is ! How can one do anything except God gives them a being to do it ?

I will never blame God for my sins or my failures! You can believe what you choose and answer to God for it.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes...I just called it that.That does not mean that God authored the evil that is done by His creation. You come to that conclusion through reasoning out exactly where responsibility begins and ends...i.e., philosophical reasoning. If you started and stopped with Scripture then you could not go beyond denying God as the author of sin. But your reasoning leads you to exactly the opposite of what the Bible says of God.

I don't know if it is even worth going further and discussing whether or not there is a "thing" as evil or if evil can truthfully be said to have been "created." At least not as long as your reasoning trumps Scripture.

Perhaps we should just let Ryan and "sbm" duke it out. They seem to be polar opposites and on the very edge of Scriptural teaching if that close!

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:4-9 makes the case between the saved and the lost.

the lost are not able to obey the Law of God.

I never claim that the convicting and enabling that the Holy Spirit does for the lost - enables them to live a sinless life - or to obey the Law of God.

It merely enables them to "Choose" the Gospel, choose eternal life.

To "receive Christ".

And at that point -the miracle of the new birth happens and then as the saints of the Romans 8:4-9 instead of the lost of Romans 8:4-9 they are next enabled to actual obey the Law of God -- as Romans 8 ways when contrasting the saved with the lost.

Those in the flesh cannot please God. Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 and those in the flesh, not born again of the Spirit, cannot exercise Faith , because it pleases God !

the claim is not that the lost state "pleases God" --

The claim is that "God so Loved the World that HE gave" for those who did not "have faith" for lost humanity that in their lost stated - "do not please God".

And Once the lost are born again then in fact they walk by faith not by sight.

But until they "choose" to open the door Rev 3.

until they "choose" to believe with their heart and confess with their mouth - they remain unchanged and not at all born again or as you might say - regenerate.

Romans 8:4-9 makes the case between the saved and the lost.

the lost are not able to obey the Law of God.

I never claim that the convicting and enabling that the Holy Spirit does for the lost - enables them to live a sinless life - or to obey the Law of God.

It merely enables them to "Choose" the Gospel, choose eternal life.

To "receive Christ".

And at that point -the miracle of the new birth happens and then as the saints of the Romans 8:4-9 instead of the lost of Romans 8:4-9 they are next enabled to actual obey the Law of God -- as Romans 8 ways when contrasting the saved with the lost.

Those in the flesh cannot please God. Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 and those in the flesh, not born again of the Spirit, cannot exercise Faith , because it pleases God !

the claim is not that the lost state "pleases God" --

The claim is that "God so Loved the World that HE gave" for those who did not "have faith" for lost humanity that in their lost stated - "do not please God".

And Once the lost are born again then in fact they walk by faith not by sight.

But until they "choose" to open the door Rev 3.

until they "choose" to believe with their heart and confess with their mouth - they remain unchanged and not at all born again or as you might say - regenerate.




hence the Romans 10 problem for Calvinism

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The Holy Spirit sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "few" of Matt 7

God sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom 'Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32

Thus enabling the still-lost the yet-lost the undecided to turn to confess repent and receive Christ.

The very thing that some forms of Calvinism claim God is not able to do - apparently.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

As per the OP....someone would have to be in Calvinism to depart from it. The poster has never shown where he actually understood the teaching at anytime.
If he understood the teaching he would not offer caricatures of it. he has in times past offered some posts closer than others to what the teaching actually is.
AA gave a solid critique [philosophy instead of theology]and the fact that it drew responses from BB philosophers shows that.{ hey Benjamin how are you?]

If an objector cannot present a view that would be welcomed by those who hold the view...can he be said to hold it???

We see on BB...many say many things and claim novelties and invent things that have been historically discredited as if it was a "new approach"...or just being from the bible only....sure...then you see it was copied from an anti-cal site....as several have done in times past.

 

[savedbymercy]

I will never blame God for my sins or my failures! You can believe what you choose and answer to God for it.

Rabbit Trail comment and evasive from my comment !

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will never blame God for my sins or my failures! You can believe what you choose and answer to God for it.

OK board...then answer for me this simple question, do you believe that God wrought David’s work in him related to the Bathsheba and Uriah affair?

 

[OldRegular]

Rabbit Trail comment and evasive from my comment !

I have responded to the following asinine claim that God is the author of sin.

Originally Posted by savedbymercy
God is not the doer of sin or mans evil, but the first cause of it, He is ! How can one do anything except God gives them a being to do it ?

My response:

I will never blame God for my sins or my failures! You can believe what you choose and answer to God for it.

Instead of squalling rabbit trail every time someone takes you to task for your blasphemy you would do well to pray to God for His mercy! You take Scripture completely out of context, philosophize a wee bit about it, then draw your asinine and blasphemous conclusions, and expect folks to dance to your hellish tune.

 

[OldRegular]

OK board...then answer for me this simple question, do you believe that God wrought David’s work in him related to the Bathsheba and Uriah affair?

I don't and David did not when confronted by Nathan!

Psalms 51:1-19 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.>>
1. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

David was no "sbm" he did not blame his sin on God. Neither was David a "Flip Wilson", he did not blame the devil!

I believe in the above Psalm we see part of the reason the following was said of David.

Acts 13:22. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

God held David accountable for his sin and David held himself responsible for his sin. David was punished severely in this life for his sins and mistakes!