The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[savedbymercy]

pt

If you cannot believe believe prior to salvation, then why was the Philippian jailer told "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31)

If he would believe, it was evidence of him being already in a saved state !

Look, you cant get around it, those in the flesh, cannot please God Rom 8:8 so if the Jailor was not born again when he heard the word of the Lord Vs 32

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

In fact, one must be of God to even spiritually hear God's Words says Jesus Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The condition to even hear the Word of God, is to be of God, which no lost person in the flesh is !

 

[PreachTony]

If he would believe, it was evidence of him being already in a saved state !

So even though he was told that he had to believe to be saved, he was actually already saved? Wow, the Bible is just full of confusing language, isn't it?

 

[Revmitchell]

So even though he was told that he had to believe to be saved, he was actually already saved? Wow, the Bible is just full of confusing language, isn't it?

Well you know, when one is already in a "saved state" (whatever that is) anything can happen.

 

[InTheLight]

So even though he was told that he had to believe to be saved, he was actually already saved? Wow, the Bible is just full of confusing language, isn't it?

pt
If he would believe, it was evidence of him being already in a saved state !

Fail.

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[savedbymercy]

So even though he was told that he had to believe to be saved, he was actually already saved? Wow, the Bible is just full of confusing language, isn't it?

You can't believe in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden and that results in unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4 and in the flesh one cannot please God Rom 8:8 ! So yes, you must be already saved to hear and believe the Gospel, the word of God !

 

[BobRyan]

That is true - and the saved saints have faith --

But the Gospel goes out to the lost, unsaved - "For God so LOVED the World that HE gave..." John 3:16

Calvinism stumbles first and foremost at John 3:16.

God so LOVED the World that He gave ... not so sorry

God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment - not so sorry.

Indeed - but no text says "until you please God he will not draw you" -John 12:32

No text say "until you please God he is not standing the door and knocking". Rev 3

bob ryan

They cant please God, they cannot have Faith, so the Gospel to them is a Savor of Death unto Death !

so then the Gospel is not for the lost....hmmm you seem to have gone out on quite a limb there.

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost".

"And such WERE some of you" 1Cor 6.

But the Gospel goes out to the lost, unsaved - "For God so LOVED the World that HE gave..." John 3:16



Calvinism stumbles first and foremost at John 3:16.

God says you can believe and receive Christ while lost -- Notice that it is the "Christless" one in Rev 3 that must "open the door".

You say that this is not possible.

We are going to have to go with God on this point.


And on the point of "God's Lament" where once again we find that Calvinism comes to a dead standstill. #116


The Gospel is for the lost -

Luke 19
9And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. 10"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

Well you know, when one is already in a "saved state" (whatever that is) anything can happen.

Being in a saved state is having been made alive by the Spirit, New Birth !

 

[savedbymercy]

so then the Gospel is not for the lost....hmmm you seem to have gone out on quite a limb there.

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost".

"And such WERE some of you" 1Cor 6.

But the Gospel goes out to the lost, unsaved - "For God so LOVED the World that HE gave..." John 3:16

Calvinism stumbles first and foremost at John 3:16.

God says you can believe and receive Christ while lost -- Notice that it is the "Christless" one in Rev 3 that must "open the door".

You say that this is not possible.

We are going to have to go with God on this point.


And on the point of "God's Lament" where Calvinism comes to a dead standstill.

in Christ,

Bob

No the Gospel is not a word of Salvation to the lost, but to the saved ! That's why it is called the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 a lost person does not have Salvation, duh !

 

[PreachTony]

You can't believe in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden and that results in unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4 and in the flesh one cannot please God Rom 8:8 ! So yes, you must be already saved to hear and believe the Gospel, the word of God !

After Paul had witnessed and preached to Agrippa, he said:

For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

The gospel is not hidden. The work of God was not done in a corner, but was instead done in the open, so that all could see.

Your point of view, savedbymercy, frankly seems in opposition to the biblical process laid out to us. In 2 Corinthians 4, Paul writes:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That does not say that the gospel is hidden, it says (at least to me) that if the gospel is hidden, it is to the detriment of them that are lost, because the 'god' of this world, the devil, has blinded them, but the gospel can give them sight.

Of course, if you believe that salvation actually comes before faith and belief, then there's really no common ground to be found.

 

[savedbymercy]

After Paul had witnessed and preached to Agrippa, he said:
The gospel is not hidden. The work of God was not done in a corner, but was instead done in the open, so that all could see.

Your point of view, savedbymercy, frankly seems in opposition to the biblical process laid out to us. In 2 Corinthians 4, Paul writes:

That does not say that the gospel is hidden, it says (at least to me) that if the gospel is hidden, it is to the detriment of them that are lost, because the 'god' of this world, the devil, has blinded them, but the gospel can give them sight.

Of course, if you believe that salvation actually comes before faith and belief, then there's really no common ground to be found.

You can not get around the fact that the Gospel is hid to them that are in a lost state, so they cannot believe, they are blinded by the devil 2 Cor 4:3-4

Those in the flesh, in a lost state, cannot please God Rom 8:8 do you know what cannot means ?

 

[BobRyan]

After Paul had witnessed and preached to Agrippa, he said:
The gospel is not hidden. The work of God was not done in a corner, but was instead done in the open, so that all could see.

Your point of view, savedbymercy, frankly seems in opposition to the biblical process laid out to us. In 2 Corinthians 4, Paul writes:

That does not say that the gospel is hidden, it says (at least to me) that if the gospel is hidden, it is to the detriment of them that are lost, because the 'god' of this world, the devil, has blinded them, but the gospel can give them sight.

Of course, if you believe that salvation actually comes before faith and belief, then there's really no common ground to be found.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" -- it does not mean that no Jews accept Christ as Savior - but it does admit to some group of them rejecting Christ -- and these were not selected by themselves to be "His OWN" rather God selected them sovereignly as "His OWN" and STILL they rejected. But not all rejected.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

No the Gospel is not a word of Salvation to the lost, but to the saved ! That's why it is called the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 a lost person does not have Salvation, duh !

I guess DUH! is a good word.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul is addressing believers in Christ, and their purpose in this world--to be to the praise of his glory. That is the result of first trusting Christ.
Those results continue in verse 13. "...AFTER you heard word of truth, AFTER (you heard) the gospel of your salvation, ...AFTER you believed,...you WERE sealed ....
These are all a result of verse 12--who first trusted in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--The gospel is not to the "elect only," but to the lost, to them that perish.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
--He preaches to all. The gospel will be a stumbling block to some; foolishness to others. But only to some will Christ be revealed as the power of God unto salvation. Yet the gospel is for all.

Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
--Paul had a debt to pay. That debt was to both the Greeks and to the barbarians (foreigners); to those that were wise and to those that were foolish--to all that were in Rome (elect or not), to preach the gospel. That is the debt he owed. The gospel is for all.

Again in verse 15--he is ready to preach the gospel to all that were in Rome.
The gospel is for all. Only some will be saved; but the gospel is for all.
As you say: Duh!

 

[PreachTony]

You can not get around the fact that the Gospel is hid to them that are in a lost state, so they cannot believe, they are blinded by the devil 2 Cor 4:3-4

Those in the flesh, in a lost state, cannot please God Rom 8:8 do you know what cannot means ?

I'm not arguing what does and does not please God. A person lost in sin cannot please God, even though God can still use that person to accomplish His good will.

I am, however, willing to argue you on this idea that the gospel is only understood by someone already saved.

The gospel is preached by those who are sent, per Romans 10. Who does the sending? From my perspective, as a preacher, I've always felt that it was God who sends, as I feel His guidance in the scripture and in prayer when a message comes to me. It is then impressed upon me to go and preach. If I don't, then I am guilty of hiding the gospel from someone who needs to hear it, again per Romans 10.

If I'm reading you correctly, the gospel is hidden, ostensibly by God, from the lost, and only when God saves someone are they even able to hear the gospel. That, my friend, is not a biblical stance.

 

[savedbymercy]

I guess DUH! is a good word.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Paul is addressing believers in Christ, and their purpose in this world--to be to the praise of his glory. That is the result of first trusting Christ.
Those results continue in verse 13. "...AFTER you heard word of truth, AFTER (you heard) the gospel of your salvation, ...AFTER you believed,...you WERE sealed ....
These are all a result of verse 12--who first trusted in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--The gospel is not to the "elect only," but to the lost, to them that perish.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
--He preaches to all. The gospel will be a stumbling block to some; foolishness to others. But only to some will Christ be revealed as the power of God unto salvation. Yet the gospel is for all.

Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
--Paul had a debt to pay. That debt was to both the Greeks and to the barbarians (foreigners); to those that were wise and to those that were foolish--to all that were in Rome (elect or not), to preach the gospel. That is the debt he owed. The gospel is for all.

Again in verse 15--he is ready to preach the gospel to all that were in Rome.
The gospel is for all. Only some will be saved; but the gospel is for all.
As you say: Duh!

I know who Paul addressed in Ephesians ! They heard the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 and believed and Trusted ! They had to be of God to Hear God's Words John 8:47 and they had to be in the Spirit to believe, because they who are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

 

[DHK]

I know who Paul addressed in Ephesians ! They heard the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 and believed and Trusted ! They had to be of God to Hear God's Words John 8:47 and they had to be in the Spirit to believe, because they who are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

You are not addressing the Scripture I gave you, but simply pitting one part of the Bible against another. Does God lie? Answer the post?

 

[PreachTony]

I know who Paul addressed in Ephesians ! They heard the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 and believed and Trusted ! They had to be of God to Hear God's Words John 8:47 and they had to be in the Spirit to believe, because they who are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

So a person that does not know God has to be in God to believe God?

 

[savedbymercy]

You are not addressing the Scripture I gave you, but simply pitting one part of the Bible against another. Does God lie? Answer the post?

There is no need, because you are evading my points. A person cannot hear or believe God's Words in a Lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4 ; Jn 8:47 ; Rom 8:8

You made mention that Paul was ready to preach to all in Rome Rom 1:15

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Yes, the Gospel can be preached to everyone in sight, however its only designed in the purpose of God to be a word of Salvation to the saved !

When a sower goes out to sow the word of God, the word lands upon different types of soils, but only one soil does it bear fruit upon, the good soil Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Now many hear it but dont understand it, because its not received into good ground, which I believe stands for a new heart !

So you can get all the scripture you want, not one of them will affirm that a Lost person can hear, understand and believe the Gospel !

 

[savedbymercy]

So a person that does not know God has to be in God to believe God?

What does the scripture say that I just showed you ? Those who are not of God, cannot hear God's Word Spiritually Jn 8:47. Those in the flesh, not born of God, Cannot please God Rom 8:8 so how can they believe or have Faith ? Doesnt Faith please God according to Heb 11:6 ?

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

I'm not arguing what does and does not please God.

Lol, thats part of your problem, you are ignoring a vital truth that could give you a bit more understanding ! A person in the flesh [not born of God] cannot please God.

Believing in Christ does please God , its pleasing in His sight as indicated 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[PreachTony]

What does the scripture say that I just showed you ? Those who are not of God, cannot hear God's Word Spiritually Jn 8:47. Those in the flesh, not born of God, Cannot please God Rom 8:8 so how can they believe or have Faith ? Doesnt Faith please God according to Heb 11:6 ?

To paraphrase DHK, you're not really doing anything but setting one set of scripture against another. You are also making tenuous connections that ought not be made. Heb 11:6 says "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." According to your logic, there is none that can seek God, because the lost cannot understand His word. And we are all, at one time or another, lost. Unless you believe that some are saved from the beginning, in which case the preaching of the gospel is meaningless, Paul was incorrect in his writing, and pretty much every church would have to close down.

Time after time the Bible states that salvation comes AFTER believing, AFTER hearing the gospel preached. You have actually said the gospel is not for the lost. Paul said the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto salvation. That means, unless I am incredibly mistaken, that the gospel is the vehicle by which man is convicted of sin and drawn unto repentance. From what I've gathered from you, you seem to think Paul should've written that the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto the already saved.