Featured The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

pt

Yeah right, answered already !

 

As I have said now, a number of times--it is an outright dismissal; a refusal to answer the post. You state: "It is invalid."
That is unacceptable. If it is invalid then show how. Go through the post point by point instead of giving me a complaint: "it is invalid"...how horrrifyiiinggg!!!! That won't do. We don't need the emotional antics. Just answer the post.

My memory doesn't stretch back that far. I am sure there are other new members on the board that would like to hear of it. Besides that I have helped you along by giving you very specific questions pertaining to your testimony that I would like you to answer. Please do that for us.

You do not read the entire verse for what it says. You omit some very small but important words.

Here is an example of what you do:
The Bible teaches: "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)
It does say that doesn't it?
Of course it does. But you are omitting the first part of the verse:
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

You do the same thing with this passage in 2Cor.4:3,4. That is why I gave you the full passage. In fact I started right from the beginning, right from verse one so you wouldn't miss anything.
But as Tony pointed out you don't state the word IF, a key word, which changes the meaning of the entire verse. By not including the word your interpretation is wrong and even deceitful.

 

The word hid in 2 Cor 4:3 it's in the perfect tense, meaning that it is a finished completed act once and for all in the past with results in the present, so the Gospel is permanently being hid from them the lost here, they have no choice but to be blinded !

 

Also the word hid kalupto :

Veil, hide, conceal, to hinder the knowledge of a thing, so these lost ones will be permanently hindered from being saved and coming into the knowledge of the Gospel Truth as desired here 1 Tim 2:4 ! For the lost that will never happen !

 

Here is the overall context given by People's New Testament Commentary.
Hopefully it will help you understand:

Note that Paul's gospel is never hid, as we have noted before. That is what Paul is saying: "If our gospel is hid, But it is not hid. Why would Paul preach a hidden or veiled gospel? Absurd!!

Concerning the meaning of the word or the tense that it is in you are only partially correct which means you are wrong.
Here is what A.T. Robertson says:

The conclusion is not quite the same as you say.
"Them that are perishing."
As Paul says:
2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
"in them that are perishing."
What do we do about it? We are to be a witness to them that they perish not!! God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

In the words of Adam Clarke:

 

That may be true in Calvinism but in the actual Bible Christ came to "Seek and save the lost" Luke 19:10 - almost everyone here (even some Calvinists) are hard pressed to oppose that Text.

What is worse is that in the extreme position you are taking - you make a solution to the following texts - impossible for Calvinism.


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

You have claimed that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome and he cannot save the lost. He must first make them saved because in your own doctrine only the already saved saints - accept the gospel as if they were lost and needed it.

=====================

Through extreme inference and a form of eisegesis you end up in a position where the only solution is to ignore the point of these texts altogether.

Better to simply switch to the Arminian view promoted in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I understand what you're saying: the lost are lost, period. No amount of preaching the gospel to them will change that fact. Only the elect will have any benefit from the preaching -- but based on your past postings, they don't need the preaching, because even if they've never heard the gospel, they were made righteous while yet sinners.

So why are we commanded to preach the gospel? Because ultimately, it's of no benefit to the saved or the lost....

 

All that is not necessary, found in the context of 2 Cor 4 is the truth of 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

You are just attempting to evade the truth with a rabbit trail !

 

your inference carries the text to an extreme not in the text and in conflict with many others.

there is NO debate between Calvinists and Arminians such that one side argues that there is no such thing as a lost person that does not listen to Christ.

Christ does not merely "Want" all to be save - he also actively "Gave Himself as a ransom for ALL" that same "all"

1Tim 2:1-7
1I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

 

Some of the lost will not accept the gospel - no question about it - and both Calvinists and Arminians admit to that.

2Tim 4
4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The very sequence you object to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.

 

Those Christ came to seek and to save are saved by His obedience alone unto death for them, so they are not lost, but saved by Him, and to them the Gospel is not hid, but it's the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13 but to them that are lost and are perishing, the Gospel is permanently hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 ! That is not going to change !

 

Bob Ryan, do you believe that Christ is 100 % successful in His venture to seek and to save all that are lost as stated in Lk 19:10 ? Yes or No ?

 

Then throw out the rest of the book!

 

If that is what you want to do. It is apparent that you don't believe a portion of the book !

 

You have demonstrated to all that reads this board how you dismiss scripture and the context in which particular is found--just as you are doing now.

My response to 2Cor.4:3-4 has been here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2180081&postcount=191

You dismiss it; won't answer it; keep saying that it is irrelevant.
It is time to man up and answer it. Answer the full context in which the verses are found.
Did Paul preach a "hidden gospel"?
Did Paul preach to the lost or the saved?
Were you at one time lost?
Did Jesus come to seek and to save that which is lost (or saved)? which one?

 

I found the scripture that you don't believe in the context of scripture !

 

My response to 2Cor.4:3-4 has been here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=191

You dismiss it; won't answer it; keep saying that it is irrelevant.
It is time to man up and answer it. Answer the full context in which the verses are found.
Did Paul preach a "hidden gospel"?
Did Paul preach to the lost or the saved?
Were you at one time lost?
Did Jesus come to seek and to save that which is lost (or saved)? which one?

 

Were they ever lost?

Did they "believe in with the heart" resulting in righteousness??

Did they "confess with their mouth" resulting in "salvation"

If not - then who did that? were these people the "unsaved" - "not righteous" saved? In that form of Calvinism that you believe?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yeah they were lost, but Christ death saved them ! You believe that people Christ came to seek and to save are still lost ? And answer my question about Lk 19:10 since you brought it up ! You scared ?

 

no because He himself states that He is not willing for any to perish - and he himself expresses lament over the results --- the very texts that you have no answer for --

consider this easy one in Matt 23.



[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]


=======================================


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================================

Here is a question for you since you won't respond to these texts.

IF you had read these texts BEFORE choosing to be Calvinist - would you really have decided then to ignore the Bible and be a Calvinist anyway?

really??

I don't think so.

I think Calvinists become so - not because of these texts -- but in spite of them.

in Christ,

Bob