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Featured Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Feb 4, 2015.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Isn't the word "saved" the parenthetical explanation of "quickened" in verse 5 simply repeated again in verse 8 and thus refers to that past tense aspect of salvation contextually defined as quickening?

    Is not this a periphrastic construction or a double verb (perfect tense with present tense) thus showing a perfected action in the past with emphasis upon the continuing state of that perfect state? Would not that demand that "by faith" must be concurrent with the perfected state or that completed action in the past - quickening?

    Just a friendly gentle nudge
     
    #41 The Biblicist, Feb 7, 2015
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I believe Young's translation will bring out the nuance's of the verbs you are referring to:

    Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

    And then follows this description:
    Eph 2:6 and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
    Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

    And then he says:
    Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
    Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;

    The key is that little word in verse 8, "For."
    It is a conjunction being used as a particle and joining the thoughts of the previous verse together. What it does is, it expects an answer, a reason, an explanation from what has already been said. It is almost as if Paul is saying "Therefore," or "In conclusion..." He is wrapping up what he has just said. He repeats the same verb tense. Notice that young makes it very clear that faith is NOT the gift.

    Greek scholar A.T. Robertson adds:
     
    #42 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The power cord on my laptop burned out.....I bought another one....I will answer you in FULL shortly
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Not really. You deny Scripture when it "guts" pre-trib-dispensationalism!

    I did! And look what came up!

    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Now tell me DHK are you really Scripture alone.
     
    #44 OldRegular, Feb 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2015
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What are you trying to say? Are you sure you are in the right forum?
    You are not making much sense OR.
     
    #45 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are working that compute too hard!
     
    #46 OldRegular, Feb 7, 2015
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I am simply showing you are not Sola Scriptura since you deny John 5:28, 29.
     
    #47 OldRegular, Feb 7, 2015
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    lol...yes..refuting DHK's attacks,:laugh::laugh::wavey: I am just starting my real responses to DHK and in fact I was going to thank you and blessed wife 318 for reading correctly and speaking against his odd posting...I will have to do it in several parts as I plan to refute the error and slander first, then get the thread back on track:laugh:
     
    #48 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Hezekiah 3:21 might be more applicable to you, but I won't tell you what it says.

    Let me say this:
    John 5:28,29 is not a panacea for ever problem of yours and for every doctrinal situation. For more than the last half dozen posts or so, they have centered around Eph.2:8,9, and then you get on your pre-trib tirade and quote John 5:28,29 (in your usual dark red, bold, and very large letters), thinking that is going to solve everything. It's not.
    Try reading and answering the posts instead.
     
    #49 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK

    My laptop is up and running DHK...so now I will begin to expose more of your foolish posting, errors, accusations. You thought you were making headway but we will now see it is just sad posting on your part because you cannot into the fine subject matter being discussed.:laugh:

    Yes DHK several means .You act shocked or surprised as if you have no idea what I am speaking about. And in fact you really do not. I would not ridicule you if in the judgement of charity you questioned me or others. Do you ask for clarification? No...you do not:wavey:

    Let's see what you do instead-
    I have thousands of posts on here. You will not find one where I suggest salvation by works....NOT ONE. So for you to start to construct this strawman is almost bizarre and I believe motivated by your irrational fear and dislike of Cals and the biblical teaching that quite frankly you are clueless on.:thumbsup:

    Because I could not respond in full on my phone I just watched as you erected your strawman and gloated as you thought I had no response.:laugh: Wrong again my friend!

    In post 21 O.R. spotted your foul plan and said this;
    Thank you O.R.!-
    then Blessed wife 318 said this;

    Inaddition to the fine list BW 318 offered, Here are some more Divine means that God uses to enable a sinner to to what he cannot by himself-

    God has promised to give a new heart-

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols,
    will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you,
    and a new spirit will I put within you:
    and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
    and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you,
    and cause you to walk in my statutes,
    and ye shall keep my judgments,
    and do them.

    Notice DHK.... God does it all......here in case you missed it-
    God does a Divine heart transplant. Unlike your "testimony" [where you did everything}
    1]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you

    2]from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    3]A new heart also will I give you,

    4]and a new spirit will I put within you

    5]and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

    6]and I will give you an heart of flesh

    7]And I will put my spirit within you

    8]and cause you to walk in my statutes

    No fairytale here DHK.....No this is the unseen work of the Spirit that you speak of as magical , mystical , yoga meditation and whatever other "tongue in cheek" mocking you offered instead.

    end of pt 1---

    You have Divine open heart transplant in the unseen realm.
    You have the law of God written upon the heart
    You have the testimony of the heavens declaring God's glory
    You have the testimony of a God given conscience
    You have the word of God inscripturated
    You have the word preached and taught .
    You have the fellowship of other believers
    You have God given teachers given as gifts to the church
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This is a twisted view of what we have ever taught. Every Cal has given testimony of God' grace in there life.

    This thread isi in the general theology section and is not about Cal testimonies. Stay on topic a stop hiding behind SBM.

    Everyone of us can and has explained it....It is not mystical...but it is of God.




    Even OR has a hard time describing "when he was saved." Notice how he avoids when "he believed in Christ." Even though that is the command we are given (as in Acts 16:31), The Calvinists' paradigm is that regeneration must precede faith which then enables salvation.

    Over and over this has been explained to you....it all happens at the same time.

    Saving repentance and faith are granted By God to the sinner as He saves Him.


    You have no ability to describe it
    This thread is not about testimonies

    God does not appear to each Christian like this.
    Quote:
    To you it is a mystery
    Saying I do not use scripture is bearing false witness...you lie here. You say out of Context because of your dispy notions

    I have several times....you lie again. Stay on the OP.

    Truth is God given....unless allowed by God...you will never come to truth.
    I said
    You responded;
    You prove my point here.
    The teaching of truth is not given to proud spirited boasters. God resists the proud.

    All of this teaching was given by Jesus. The truth is not given to everyone. Unless God allows a person to welcome it they never will.


    You are wrong
     
    #51 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK


    Sure you do. You do because you do not know the truth on these things.We all know that The Spirit works in the unseen spiritual realm...you look to the flesh, like Nicodemus you ask...how can these things be?

    No....my computer was down, so now...don't you feel quite foolish that you were critical of me when you had no idea of what I was speaking about:wavey:

    off topic, more garbage...where have I quoted calvin?
    Wrong Again.....faith is the instrumentality.


    These verses teach that Jesus saves.....

    I read the testimony of what you did as you wrote it. Most of us give testimony of what God has done in our lives.

    These are descriptions of your posts saying I do not use scripture, and teach a works salvation and heresy
    Your mental state is not the subject of the OP.:thumbs:

    .

    None of us are...we follow Jesus. I do not like you bearing false witness as that violates the ninth commandment.
    I respond to what you posted. If you do not like it ,stop bearing false witness.

    false witness...no one says I deny any such thing....I am not the subject of the OP

    In your next post you say:


    The only false assumptions are by you. I did not say I was speaking about you.
    Your anti Cal agenda has you on the defensive.[/quote]
    I do not care for what you or Steaver infer DHK....I will speak about what I actually post, not the strawman in your mind.:thumbs:
    .
    not part of this thread, and false witness again

    You said it 4 x times in several posts...it is true.
    ."

    yes sadly that is what you posted.


    no..that is what you said about Jn 3


    You posted it 4x not me.
    false, not part of this thread.
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    #53 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I believe Scripture states that Salvation is by Grace alone.

    Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Ephesians 2:5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    2 Timothy 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    DHK, You tell the story about being saved at a Bible study, I believe, but I don't recall exactly. I believe you said you were raised Roman Catholic so what brought you to that particular event. Was it the work of God or simply "luck"?
     
    #54 OldRegular, Feb 7, 2015
  15. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbs::applause::applause::thumbs:




    Oooooh, oooooh, I know! Peanut butter?
     
    #55 convicted1, Feb 7, 2015
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK

    This thread is about God illuminating truth to sinners, not works salvation that you are going on and on about.
    here are the verses being spoken of in this thread....address them;
    Jn3;

    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



    Mt11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,

    because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

    and hast revealed them unto babes.

    26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


    MT13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


    Mt16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


    Then Biblicists post;

    sure it did, they got it. You did not....ask them they will tell you.

    sure it does.....you have not spoken to the real issue yet.:thumbs:


    blessed wife 318 got it and posted, I added a few...read it again....
    we are speaking about why someone can understand truth...EZK 36...and eph 1 and eph 4....Did you read the thread at all?

    read before you entered and tried to derail the thread...then you might get it.

    Nothing to do with the OP
    Okay
    This is off topic ...no Cal believes anything like you say. The topic is why one person can welcome truth and another cannot.
    because you cannot welcome it, does not mean that I cannot describe it.
    Did you notice no one else says I cannot describe it.??? take the hint:wavey:
    .

    Not really DHK. God's Covenant salvation is quite awesome and it is clearly revealed to His people:thumbs:

    No one else says that...everyone else likes the discussion in the thread.Do you not see that??? Ask them.....they will tell you.

    I have not heard anyone say that. If they were not given a new heart , they were not saved at that time, I do not care what they say.

    I hold what has been believed in the historic church;


    there it is...right there:wavey:
     
    #56 Iconoclast, Feb 7, 2015
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No they haven't. SBM has been challenged many times and he never has.
    It proves a point.
    Really. Not in this thread, (and several others I have been reading).
    The gospel is really very simple. The Cals make it very complicated. You demonstrated that in your last post.
    First, the repetition of error doesn't turn it into truth.
    Second, God doesn't give "faith" to an unregenerated person. Demonstrate that from the Scriptures. You never have. Faith was a spiritual gift in the first century listed among the gifts in 1Cor.12, and is one of the fruits of the Spirit in Gal.5. God does not give the fruit of the Spirit of the gifts of the Spirit to the unregenerate/unsaved. That is a totally unbiblical concept, and you have never been able to prove otherwise.
    You are simply parroting Calvinism. Why not look into the Word instead.
    This above statement is your reply to me when I said:

    It is an illogical and false premise to start with and therefore all the confusion, and the reluctance to give any clear-cut testimony.

    However, I have given my testimony many times, and in detail. So do away with the disparaging language.
    This thread is about salvation. Salvation has a testimony. If one can't testify of their own salvation I doubt that such a person is saved.
    Paul believed and was saved.
    The eunuch believed and was saved.
    The jailer believed and was saved.
    Lydia believed and was saved.

    How is that different than other Christians?
    The gospel is not a mystery. Paul never said it was a mystery.
    However, as I said, and to which you are responding here:

    The work of the Spirit called a fairy tale?
    It might as well be the way some of you describe it.
    --The way some of the Cals describe salvation it is much of a mystical fairy tale isn't it? You can use Biblical language so allegorically but you can't explain what it means.
    "God does an operation in an unseen world; takes out a stony heart and puts in him a heart of flesh, a new heart. He sprinkles him with clean and pure water. "

    These are your words. Is this what you teach to your children or grandchildren? How then can they be saved? Just because it is scripture does not make it meaningful.
    Much of what you say is out of context. Even if I expound an entire chapter for you, you will reject it because of bias.
    Stop with the derogatory and inflammatory language. I am adhering to the OP but it something you want to avoid.
    This is the height of arrogance. You say you have the truth. God revealed the truth to you. All others that differ from you do not have the truth, an inference that we are all unsaved and that you are the only one that is.

    Look carefully at what you said:
    Unless God allows it, DHK will never come to the truth.
    Is that really what you think?

    You need to re-read some of these things and prayerfully reconsider some of the things you have said.
     
    #57 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
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  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I purposed in my heart to visit a friend who was living in the dormitory of a university. While I was there, the Lord led him to witness to me of the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. He explained the gospel to me. I responded, and accepted God's free gift of salvation. Yes it was the work of God.
     
    #58 DHK, Feb 7, 2015
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Just happened to pick up on the above statement by you DHK. You are misrepresenting what I said. I did not avoid anything. I laid my struggle out on this BB for all to read. Have you done as much? All I saw was you were saved in a prayer meeting or Bible study. That really tells nothing about your experience of Grace.

    I would remind you what Jesus Christ says about the New Birth. I know you pick and choose which Scripture to believe but!!!!!!!!

    John 3:3-8
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Jesus Christ is speaking of Regeneration which precedes Conversion. Insofar as I know there is nothing in Scripture that makes Regeneration and Conversion a simultaneous act. I believe that Saul had experienced Regeneration before his Damascus road experience. That was the reason for the following exchange: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.{Acts 9:5}

    Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] I prayed for Forgiveness and Faith. God granted both.
     
    #59 OldRegular, Feb 8, 2015
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Demonstrate this so-called doctrine through the Scriptures.
    This is Calvinism. It is not what the Bible teaches.
     
    #60 DHK, Feb 8, 2015
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