Divine Illumination/ Divine Enablement

[The Biblicist]

Yep, I have diagrammed this sentence more than once.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

First thing to note: "it is" is in italics in the KJV meaning it isn't in the original Greek.

But more importantly:
The verse centers around these 3 words Ye are saved, subject and verb.
--through grace is a prepositional phrase modifying the verb; how one is saved.
--by faith, another prepositional phrase modifying the verb, the means by which we are saved.
We are saved through grace by faith.
Hence the topic is salvation.

--and that not of yourselves: Salvation is not of yourselves.
--(it is) the gift of God: Salvation is the gift of God.

--Salvation is not of works.
----Salvation is not of works because one would be boasting about it.

The entire two verses center around "ye are saved," or "salvation."

As verses 8 and 9 speak of salvation, verse 10 speaks of the result of salvation. It tells us why the believer is created, what he should be doing.

Isn't the word "saved" the parenthetical explanation of "quickened" in verse 5 simply repeated again in verse 8 and thus refers to that past tense aspect of salvation contextually defined as quickening?

Is not this a periphrastic construction or a double verb (perfect tense with present tense) thus showing a perfected action in the past with emphasis upon the continuing state of that perfect state? Would not that demand that "by faith" must be concurrent with the perfected state or that completed action in the past - quickening?

Just a friendly gentle nudge

 

[DHK]

Isn't the word "saved" the parenthetical explanation of "quickened" in verse 5 simply repeated again in verse 8 and thus refers to that past tense aspect of salvation contextually defined as quickening?

Is not this a periphrastic construction or a double verb (perfect tense with present tense) thus showing a perfected action in the past with emphasis upon the continuing state of that perfect state? Would not that demand that "by faith" must be concurrent with the perfected state or that completed action in the past - quickening?

Just a friendly gentle nudge

I believe Young's translation will bring out the nuance's of the verbs you are referring to:

Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

And then follows this description:
Eph 2:6 and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

And then he says:
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;

The key is that little word in verse 8, "For."
It is a conjunction being used as a particle and joining the thoughts of the previous verse together. What it does is, it expects an answer, a reason, an explanation from what has already been said. It is almost as if Paul is saying "Therefore," or "In conclusion..." He is wrapping up what he has just said. He repeats the same verb tense. Notice that young makes it very clear that faith is NOT the gift.

Greek scholar A.T. Robertson adds:

For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

 

[Iconoclast]

I never told any lies. Don't falsely accuse. If the so-called "means" are the "ways" in which Blessedwife described, then why didn't you say so. You could have cleared that up a long time ago.

But the statement:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."

doesn't sound like those things like blessedwife has listed.
In the Calvinist's thinking, did God ordain from eternity past "handing out tracts"? That just doesn't fit the context in which you originally used the statement.
The statement has been quoted several times and you have never clarified it. The onus has been on you. Take responsibility!

The power cord on my laptop burned out.....I bought another one....I will answer you in FULL shortly

 

[OldRegular]

You can show me that in the Institutes of Calvin and the Westminster Confession of Faith. But you can't show me that in the Bible.
God chooses on the basis of man's faith in him.

For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You believe in sola Calvina; I believe in sola scriptura.

Not really. You deny Scripture when it "guts" pre-trib-dispensationalism!

Why not use the Bible instead.

I did! And look what came up!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now tell me DHK are you really Scripture alone.

 

[DHK]

Not really. You deny Scripture when it "guts" pre-trib-dispensationalism!

I did! And look what came up!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What are you trying to say? Are you sure you are in the right forum?
You are not making much sense OR.

 

[OldRegular]

The power cord on my laptop burned out.....I bought another one....I will answer you in FULL shortly

You are working that compute too hard!

 

[OldRegular]

What are you trying to say? Are you sure you are in the right forum?
You are not making much sense OR.

I am simply showing you are not Sola Scriptura since you deny John 5:28, 29.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are working that compute too hard!

lol...yes..refuting DHK's attacks,:laugh::laugh::wavey: I am just starting my real responses to DHK and in fact I was going to thank you and blessed wife 318 for reading correctly and speaking against his odd posting...I will have to do it in several parts as I plan to refute the error and slander first, then get the thread back on track:laugh:

 

[DHK]

I am simply showing you are not Sola Scriptura since you deny John 5:28, 29.

Hezekiah 3:21 might be more applicable to you, but I won't tell you what it says.

Let me say this:
John 5:28,29 is not a panacea for ever problem of yours and for every doctrinal situation. For more than the last half dozen posts or so, they have centered around Eph.2:8,9, and then you get on your pre-trib tirade and quote John 5:28,29 (in your usual dark red, bold, and very large letters), thinking that is going to solve everything. It's not.
Try reading and answering the posts instead.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

My laptop is up and running DHK...so now I will begin to expose more of your foolish posting, errors, accusations. You thought you were making headway but we will now see it is just sad posting on your part because you cannot into the fine subject matter being discussed.:laugh:

Using "several means"?

Yes DHK several means .You act shocked or surprised as if you have no idea what I am speaking about. And in fact you really do not. I would not ridicule you if in the judgement of charity you questioned me or others. Do you ask for clarification? No...you do not:wavey:

Let's see what you do instead-

So salvation is by works?

I have thousands of posts on here. You will not find one where I suggest salvation by works....NOT ONE. So for you to start to construct this strawman is almost bizarre and I believe motivated by your irrational fear and dislike of Cals and the biblical teaching that quite frankly you are clueless on.:thumbsup:

How many means?

Because I could not respond in full on my phone I just watched as you erected your strawman and gloated as you thought I had no response.:laugh: Wrong again my friend!

In post 21 O.R. spotted your foul plan and said this;

That is pathetic DHK, Icon said nothing about works. In fact he says God uses several means that HE has ordained. I posted the following

Thank you O.R.!-
then Blessed wife 318 said this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwife318 View Post
I think you are reading way to much into the use of 'several means". When I read that I took it at face value that God uses different means for people to hear the Gospel and be saved.
Just some examples off the top of my head,
hearing a preacher in church
hearing someones testimony,
reading the Bible
being handed a track,
one on one evangelism.
Those are all different means in which the Gospel can be delivered to someone.

Exactly correct.! You see through the silly posting and falsehoods DHK inflicts on everyone.He is blind to it.
He cannot make a case so he fabricates what he "infers" I might have said or thought...lol...4 it must be the pressure....lol

Inaddition to the fine list BW 318 offered, Here are some more Divine means that God uses to enable a sinner to to what he cannot by himself-

God has promised to give a new heart-

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.

Notice DHK.... God does it all......here in case you missed it-
God does a Divine heart transplant. Unlike your "testimony" [where you did everything}
1]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you

2]from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

3]A new heart also will I give you,

4]and a new spirit will I put within you

5]and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

6]and I will give you an heart of flesh

7]And I will put my spirit within you

8]and cause you to walk in my statutes

No fairytale here DHK.....No this is the unseen work of the Spirit that you speak of as magical , mystical , yoga meditation and whatever other "tongue in cheek" mocking you offered instead.

end of pt 1---

You have Divine open heart transplant in the unseen realm.
You have the law of God written upon the heart
You have the testimony of the heavens declaring God's glory
You have the testimony of a God given conscience
You have the word of God inscripturated
You have the word preached and taught .
You have the fellowship of other believers
You have God given teachers given as gifts to the church

 

[Iconoclast]

PT2

And here is the quote:

"The new birth (as described by some here) is a mystical, mysterious, metaphysical (even superstitious) experience whereupon a man goes into his yogic position and while doing nothing, having read nothing, having ever heard anything about Christ; suddenly and mysteriously the Holy Spirit comes strangely and mystically upon him and transforms him from within giving him a new heart."
It is a tongue-in-cheek description of the total inability of the Calvinist to give his testimony of salvation. He can't.

This is a twisted view of what we have ever taught. Every Cal has given testimony of God' grace in there life.

Most Calvinists are in the same boat.

This thread isi in the general theology section and is not about Cal testimonies. Stay on topic a stop hiding behind SBM.

It boils down to this mysterious mystical event that they can't describe.

Everyone of us can and has explained it....It is not mystical...but it is of God.




Even OR has a hard time describing "when he was saved." Notice how he avoids when "he believed in Christ." Even though that is the command we are given (as in Acts 16:31), The Calvinists' paradigm is that regeneration must precede faith which then enables salvation.

Over and over this has been explained to you....it all happens at the same time.

Saving repentance and faith are granted By God to the sinner as He saves Him.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. It is an illogical and false premise to start with and therefore all the confusion, and the reluctance to give any clear-cut testimony.

You have no ability to describe it

Of all of you here, OR is the only one that attempted to give his or her testimony. I wonder why it so difficult to testify of Christ for a Calvinist. When and where were you born again? How did it come about? The Apostle Paul used his testimony quite effectively as he witnessed to others.

This thread is not about testimonies

On the road to Damascus there was a point in time when he believed that Christ was Lord. Admitting that he was Lord, God did a work of grace in his heart and he immediately submitted to him from that point onward. There was no process there. There was nothing mystical and mysterious and undefinable.

God does not appear to each Christian like this.
Quote:

The work of the Spirit called a fairy tale?

It might as well be the way some of you describe it.

To you it is a mystery

You don't use scripture and when you do it is used out of context.

Saying I do not use scripture is bearing false witness...you lie here. You say out of Context because of your dispy notions

You can't give your own testimony.

I have several times....you lie again. Stay on the OP.

One poster ridicules the idea that for a Christian to come to truth the Spirit must accompany his or her study to allow truth to enter in.

Every Christian has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. In fact all Christians have "the fullness of the Godhead bodily." What more do we need?
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Are you suggesting that some are inspired of God?

Truth is God given....unless allowed by God...you will never come to truth.
I said

One poster believes that for a person to welcome the doctrines of grace does not need God to open the truth to him.

You responded;

Of course not. The DoG, as we understand it (Calvinism) is in error, false teaching.

You prove my point here.

God is not going to reveal the false teaching of Calvin to one who already knows the truth. Think of it that way.

The teaching of truth is not given to proud spirited boasters. God resists the proud.

To think of it another way, even if you accept it as truth, accept it as a "system of theology," man's system, not inspired of God. It is a matter of soul liberty. It is not a matter of "God showing me."

All of this teaching was given by Jesus. The truth is not given to everyone. Unless God allows a person to welcome it they never will.

Quote:
Do you think the natural man can welcome the things of God?

Yes, I think you do not understand that verse.

You are wrong

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You were the one that said:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
--I believe that is heresy.

Sure you do. You do because you do not know the truth on these things.We all know that The Spirit works in the unseen spiritual realm...you look to the flesh, like Nicodemus you ask...how can these things be?

That is akin to Catholicism. The Catholic Church has several means to attain salvation; they are called "sacraments." You never defined what your "several means" were.

No....my computer was down, so now...don't you feel quite foolish that you were critical of me when you had no idea of what I was speaking about:wavey:

But both Calvin and Luther were also sacramental bringing that baggage over from the RCC. You are the one that follows Calvin and is the ardent defender of his faith.

off topic, more garbage...where have I quoted calvin?

However, the Bible teaches that there is but one means, one and only one means to attain salvation.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is the means.

Wrong Again.....faith is the instrumentality.

It is the only means whereby salvation is attained. Now that is what the Bible teaches over and over again: Acts 16:31; 10:43; Eph.2:8,9; Rom.5:1; John 5:23; 3:16-18; 1Cor.15:1-4; etc. Salvation is by faith.

These verses teach that Jesus saves.....

I have said quite clearly that salvation is all of God. It is a gift that must be received--God's gift; His gift of salvation. Yes, it is all of God. When have I ever said any differently? Why are you trying to accuse me of believing what I don't believe.

I read the testimony of what you did as you wrote it. Most of us give testimony of what God has done in our lives.

And to add to that: Who is the one using derogatory language here?
["becoming unglued...no grasp...are loosing it..."]

These are descriptions of your posts saying I do not use scripture, and teach a works salvation and heresy

No thank you, Icon. I am still quite sane;

Your mental state is not the subject of the OP.:thumbs:

I know what I believe. I am not a follower of Calvin and you don't like that

.

None of us are...we follow Jesus. I do not like you bearing false witness as that violates the ninth commandment.

Well, the answer is not to call me names. Read my post. You unjustly accused me of calling you names when I didn't.

I respond to what you posted. If you do not like it ,stop bearing false witness.

Typical "Icon response." Very condescending words. I am not in error Icon.
Salvation is by grace through faith. You seem to be denying this very basic truth.

false witness...no one says I deny any such thing....I am not the subject of the OP

In your next post you say:


The only false assumptions are by you. I did not say I was speaking about you.
Your anti Cal agenda has you on the defensive.[/quote]

This answer is basically a "non-answer." You have no defense. You previously answered my post with this response.

"You did not notice it because I did not walk the aisle.....or raise my hand with every eye closed....no.....God sought me in my sin and rebellion and regenerated me granting repentance and faith."

Don't accuse me of false assumptions. I am quoting you almost word for word. You infer that because you are Calvinist, that all non-Cals must walk the aisle and raise their hands, etc. That is your position. Otherwise you would have no reason to post what you just did here.

I do not care for what you or Steaver infer DHK....I will speak about what I actually post, not the strawman in your mind.:thumbs:

The sad thing is that most of you (Calvinists in general) are unable to give a personal testimony of your salvation. That truly is sad

.
not part of this thread, and false witness again

You misunderstand. I didn't say that at all. In fact that is an outright lie.

You said it 4 x times in several posts...it is true.

You started this thread with a quote of mine. That quote ended with "I don't believe in fairy tales

."

yes sadly that is what you posted.

Did the quote describe "the new birth"? Is that what you believe the new birth is?

no..that is what you said about Jn 3

Is that what you believe the bible teaches--what that quote says? Really? If you do, then yes it is a fairy tale. That is what was labeled a fairy tale. So be honest. Don't put words in my mouth. At least be honest Icon.

You posted it 4x not me.

I can clearly explain salvation to you and back it up with the Word of God.
It seems that not only you, but all your Cal friends can't even give a testimony of salvation--when, where, how were you saved?

false, not part of this thread.

 

[DHK]

DHK

you cannot into the fine subject matter being discussed.:laugh:
Whaaaaa??? Keep laughing.

Yes DHK several means .You act shocked or surprised as if you have no idea what I am speaking about. And in fact you really do not. I would not ridicule you if in the judgement of charity you questioned me or others. Do you ask for clarification?

Yes I did. You haven't given it yet. But you had many opportunities. You do know this is a debate forum, don't you?

I have thousands of posts on here. You will not find one where I suggest salvation by works....NOT ONE. So for you to start to construct this strawman is almost bizarre and I believe motivated by your irrational fear and dislike of Cals and the biblical teaching that quite frankly you are clueless on.:thumbsup:

It is odd that you would put a "thumpsup" right next to a name-calling disparaging remark, "you are clueless.."

I keep quoting your statement for you:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
Salvation is by faith alone. Faith is the only means to salvation. If there is more than that one "means" then salvation is by works, isn't it?
No need to call me names, just refute what I have said, or clarify what you have said.

Because I could not respond in full on my phone I just watched as you erected your strawman and gloated as you thought I had no response.:laugh: Wrong again my friend!

In post 21 O.R. spotted your foul plan and said this;

Thank you O.R.!-
then Blessed wife 318 said this;

Nothing they said helped your case any.

Here are some more Divine means that God uses to enable a sinner to to what he cannot by himself

God has promised to give a new heart-

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.

Notice DHK.... God does it all......here in case you missed it-
God does a Divine heart transplant. Unlike your "testimony" [where you did everything}
1]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you

2]from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

3]A new heart also will I give you,

4]and a new spirit will I put within you

5]and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,

6]and I will give you an heart of flesh

7]And I will put my spirit within you

8]and cause you to walk in my statutes

Nothing contradicts my position. Nothing contradicts anything that I have said. There is still only one means to salvation. And that is faith. What are the other means, Icon? Quoting scripture is simply being evasive.
BTW, are all the above conditions for salvation?

No fairytale here DHK.....No this is the unseen work of the Spirit that you speak of as magical , mystical , yoga meditation and whatever other "tongue in cheek" mocking you offered instead.

You are right. There is no fairy tale in the new birth, in God's regeneration of the unregenerate. I never said there was. What I described (or my quote that you posted in the OP) is a fairy tale description of what many Calvinists seem to believe. That is the reason that they can't give a clear-cut testimony of their salvation--the unseen, mysterious, mystical, magical work of the Spirit.
It is so mystical you can't even describe what he does properly. It is all a mystery to you. You need to speak in such allegorical terms that you can't explain what you are saying.

end of pt 1---

You have Divine open heart transplant in the unseen realm.
You have the law of God written upon the heart
You have the testimony of the heavens declaring God's glory
You have the testimony of a God given conscience
You have the word of God inscripturated
You have the word preached and taught .
You have the fellowship of other believers
You have God given teachers given as gifts to the church

There are some on this board that will testify that they were regenerated and saved as early as four to six years of age.
Now tell them how they had a "heart transplant in the unseen realm" at that age.

You have a very mystic belief told in allegorical language that not even you can understand.

 

[OldRegular]

I keep quoting your statement for you:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
Salvation is by faith alone. Faith is the only means to salvation.

I believe Scripture states that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ephesians 2:5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

DHK, You tell the story about being saved at a Bible study, I believe, but I don't recall exactly. I believe you said you were raised Roman Catholic so what brought you to that particular event. Was it the work of God or simply "luck"?

 

[convicted1]

I believe Scripture states that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ephesians 2:5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

:thumbs::applause::applause::thumbs:

DHK, You tell the story about being saved at a Bible study, I believe, but I don't recall exactly. I believe you said you were raised Roman Catholic so what brought you to that particular event. Was it the work of God or simply "luck"?

Oooooh, oooooh, I know! Peanut butter?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I keep quoting your statement for you:
"God uses several means that HE has ordained."
Salvation is by faith alone. Faith is the only means to salvation. If there is more than that one "means" then salvation is by works, isn't it?
No need to call me names, just refute what I have said, or clarify what you have said.

This thread is about God illuminating truth to sinners, not works salvation that you are going on and on about.
here are the verses being spoken of in this thread....address them;
Jn3;

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



Mt11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,

because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


MT13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


Mt16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


Then Biblicists post;

I have come to cherish 2 Corinthians 4:6 as a definitive verse for the internal work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

1. It is purposely and directly associated with the effectual call of light out of darkness in Genesis 1:2-3 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness." This is indisputably the effectual call of God.

2. It is then directly applied to the INWARD darkened STATE of the heart "hath shined IN our hearts" thus dispelling the DARKENED condition of that heart effectually. This is not an external work of God but the INTERNAL work of God directly compared to the effectual work of God in Genesis 1:2-3. When God called light into existence it dispelled, replaced, removed the darkened state of the earth.

3. This effectual call whereby the darkened state of the heart is CHANGED to a STATE OF LIGHT (thus transformed or called out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light) is defined as an effectual REVELATION of the "knowledge of the glory of God". This "knowledge" is directly created or called into existence within the heart by God just as God called light into existence in Genesis 1;2-3 by a creative act. This is a CREATIVE REVELATORY act of God that transforms the heart from a state of darkness to a state of light.

4. This heart transformational "knowledge" is then explicitly defined to be "the glory of God." It is divine revelation of the glory of God that transforms the heart from a state of darkness (dominion of sin) into the state of light (righteousness/holiness). Sin is coming short of the glory of God, therefore the glory of God is God's RIGHTEOUSNESS and HOLINESS. Paul says our new man is CREATED in "righteousness and true holiness" after the "image of God" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). This is an internal effectual creative act of God that transforms the sinful state of the unregenerate heart into the righteous and holy state - thus producing a NEW heart.

5. This "light of knowledge" is further defined as "IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST." When you look into someone's face you can SEE them for who they are. Paul is saying the heart is transformed by a creative act of God that effectually changes the heart from a state of Darkness or IGNORANCE of Christ or a state which is BLIND and cannot SEE who Christ really is, unto a state of LIGHT that REVEALS Christ or a heart that is looking into "THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST as Christ is declared in the gospel (vv. 2-5,7). Thus God creates a SEEING heart that knows Jesus Christ - that is the creation of saving faith!

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In contrast to the transformed heart that sees Jesus Christ is the unregenerated heart which is in darkness, unrighteousness and blind and alienated from the life of God:

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Nothing they said helped your case any.

sure it did, they got it. You did not....ask them they will tell you.

Nothing contradicts my position. Nothing contradicts anything that I have said.

sure it does.....you have not spoken to the real issue yet.:thumbs:

There is still only one means to salvation. And that is faith. What are the other means, Icon? Quoting scripture is simply being evasive.

blessed wife 318 got it and posted, I added a few...read it again....
we are speaking about why someone can understand truth...EZK 36...and eph 1 and eph 4....Did you read the thread at all?

read before you entered and tried to derail the thread...then you might get it.

BTW, are all the above conditions for salvation?

Nothing to do with the OP

You are right. There is no fairy tale in the new birth, in God's regeneration of the unregenerate.

Okay

I never said there was. What I described (or my quote that you posted in the OP) is a fairy tale description of what many Calvinists seem to believe. That is the reason that they can't give a clear-cut testimony of their salvation--the unseen, mysterious, mystical, magical work of the Spirit.

This is off topic ...no Cal believes anything like you say. The topic is why one person can welcome truth and another cannot.

It is so mystical you can't even describe what he does properly.

because you cannot welcome it, does not mean that I cannot describe it.
Did you notice no one else says I cannot describe it.??? take the hint:wavey:

It is all a mystery to you

.

Not really DHK. God's Covenant salvation is quite awesome and it is clearly revealed to His people:thumbs:

You need to speak in such allegorical terms that you can't explain what you are saying.

No one else says that...everyone else likes the discussion in the thread.Do you not see that??? Ask them.....they will tell you.

There are some on this board that will testify that they were regenerated and saved as early as four to six years of age.
Now tell them how they had a "heart transplant in the unseen realm" at that age.

I have not heard anyone say that. If they were not given a new heart , they were not saved at that time, I do not care what they say.

You have a very mystic belief told in allegorical language that not even you can understand.

I hold what has been believed in the historic church;

Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith

1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )

there it is...right there:wavey:

 

[DHK]

PT2
This is a twisted view of what we have ever taught. Every Cal has given testimony of God' grace in there life.

No they haven't. SBM has been challenged many times and he never has.

This thread isi in the general theology section and is not about Cal testimonies. Stay on topic a stop hiding behind SBM.

It proves a point.

Everyone of us can and has explained it....It is not mystical...but it is of God.

Really. Not in this thread, (and several others I have been reading).
The gospel is really very simple. The Cals make it very complicated. You demonstrated that in your last post.

Even OR has a hard time describing "when he was saved." Notice how he avoids when "he believed in Christ." Even though that is the command we are given (as in Acts 16:31), The Calvinists' paradigm is that regeneration must precede faith which then enables salvation.

Over and over this has been explained to you....it all happens at the same time.

Saving repentance and faith are granted By God to the sinner as He saves Him.

First, the repetition of error doesn't turn it into truth.
Second, God doesn't give "faith" to an unregenerated person. Demonstrate that from the Scriptures. You never have. Faith was a spiritual gift in the first century listed among the gifts in 1Cor.12, and is one of the fruits of the Spirit in Gal.5. God does not give the fruit of the Spirit of the gifts of the Spirit to the unregenerate/unsaved. That is a totally unbiblical concept, and you have never been able to prove otherwise.
You are simply parroting Calvinism. Why not look into the Word instead.

You have no ability to describe it

This above statement is your reply to me when I said:

It is an illogical and false premise to start with and therefore all the confusion, and the reluctance to give any clear-cut testimony.

However, I have given my testimony many times, and in detail. So do away with the disparaging language.

This thread is not about testimonies

This thread is about salvation. Salvation has a testimony. If one can't testify of their own salvation I doubt that such a person is saved.

God does not appear to each Christian like this.

Paul believed and was saved.
The eunuch believed and was saved.
The jailer believed and was saved.
Lydia believed and was saved.

How is that different than other Christians?

To you it is a mystery

The gospel is not a mystery. Paul never said it was a mystery.
However, as I said, and to which you are responding here:

The work of the Spirit called a fairy tale?
It might as well be the way some of you describe it.
--The way some of the Cals describe salvation it is much of a mystical fairy tale isn't it? You can use Biblical language so allegorically but you can't explain what it means.
"God does an operation in an unseen world; takes out a stony heart and puts in him a heart of flesh, a new heart. He sprinkles him with clean and pure water. "

These are your words. Is this what you teach to your children or grandchildren? How then can they be saved? Just because it is scripture does not make it meaningful.

Saying I do not use scripture is bearing false witness...you lie here. You say out of Context because of your dispy notions

Much of what you say is out of context. Even if I expound an entire chapter for you, you will reject it because of bias.

I have several times....you lie again. Stay on the OP.

Stop with the derogatory and inflammatory language. I am adhering to the OP but it something you want to avoid.

Truth is God given....unless allowed by God...you will never come to truth.

This is the height of arrogance. You say you have the truth. God revealed the truth to you. All others that differ from you do not have the truth, an inference that we are all unsaved and that you are the only one that is.

Look carefully at what you said:
Unless God allows it, DHK will never come to the truth.
Is that really what you think?

I said

You responded;

You prove my point here.

The teaching of truth is not given to proud spirited boasters. God resists the proud.

All of this teaching was given by Jesus. The truth is not given to everyone. Unless God allows a person to welcome it they never will.

You are wrong

You need to re-read some of these things and prayerfully reconsider some of the things you have said.

 

[DHK]

DHK, You tell the story about being saved at a Bible study, I believe, but I don't recall exactly. I believe you said you were raised Roman Catholic so what brought you to that particular event. Was it the work of God or simply "luck"?

I purposed in my heart to visit a friend who was living in the dormitory of a university. While I was there, the Lord led him to witness to me of the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. He explained the gospel to me. I responded, and accepted God's free gift of salvation. Yes it was the work of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Even OR has a hard time describing "when he was saved." Notice how he avoids when "he believed in Christ."

Just happened to pick up on the above statement by you DHK. You are misrepresenting what I said. I did not avoid anything. I laid my struggle out on this BB for all to read. Have you done as much? All I saw was you were saved in a prayer meeting or Bible study. That really tells nothing about your experience of Grace.

I would remind you what Jesus Christ says about the New Birth. I know you pick and choose which Scripture to believe but!!!!!!!!

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus Christ is speaking of Regeneration which precedes Conversion. Insofar as I know there is nothing in Scripture that makes Regeneration and Conversion a simultaneous act. I believe that Saul had experienced Regeneration before his Damascus road experience. That was the reason for the following exchange: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.{Acts 9:5}

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] I prayed for Forgiveness and Faith. God granted both.

 

[DHK]

Jesus Christ is speaking of Regeneration which precedes Conversion. Insofar as I know there is nothing in Scripture that makes Regeneration and Conversion a simultaneous act. I believe that Saul had experienced Regeneration before his Damascus road experience. That was the reason for the following exchange: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.{Acts 9:5}

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] I prayed for Forgiveness and Faith. God granted both.

Demonstrate this so-called doctrine through the Scriptures.
This is Calvinism. It is not what the Bible teaches.