Featured Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

No...God is not mocked. If someone ridicules the truth they are probably not going to be given more anytime soon. In Acts 7 stephen says there are some who resist right into second death.
The effectual call is not ultimately resisted. Several give testimony to having resisted God for a long time, but he over-rules.

 

This guy definitely gets it. :thumbs: Faith is most definitely a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29).

 

I did not say two types of "saving faith".

 

Sorry to inform you brother, you are not God, and you are not an apostle either.

 

Well just so you know, they don't respond back to me after I tell them I'm a 5 pointer and Amil.

 

Id like to see some examples of the spirit being resisted, I contend that it is not resisted....if you are a child of God His will out.

 

Yes....if you are a true believer and honest. I was this to one pastor who told me it didn't make a difference but then he tried to sway me to free will and Dispys beliefs. That was dishonest. Another told me he doesn't want me in his church...get it, "his church "....at least he was honest about it.

But yes, it is a big deal to me so yes I'm going to mention it....and what's more I ain't changing to accommodate them.....so I'm not invited.

 

I believe the Spirit can be resisted, otherwise Paul would not have instructed the Thessalonian church to avoid "quenching" the Spirit. I think what happens is often we find a disconnect and a miscommunication between Cals and non-Cals when discussing "Irresistible Grace." Some folks, Cal and non-Cal alike seem to think the Spirit of God is always and at all times Irresistible, but that is not a truth born in the Bible. If it were, then Paul was wrong in writing what he wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5.

 

Let me begin by saying I love you, Brother Icon...but this is an arrogant worldview concerning theology. There is a "read-between-the-lines" undertone here that basically says if you don't hold to Calvinism then you are not really a true believer. It's not as broad-brushing as SBM's comment a few months ago that anyone who doesn't hold to TULIP as the gospel is not saved, but it's a pretty wide brush nonetheless.

I'm quite ardent in my belief of free will, but I would never paint someone who disagreed with my theological interpretation as somehow less educated (as you intentionally or unintentionally do later in your post) or as not truly in belief.

So "free will," Arminianism, and any other Christian-based non-Calvinist form of teaching is NOT God's truth?

How can the sheep be disobedient if they are irresistibly elected unto salvation? Seems it would take free will on the part of the sheep in order to be disobedient to the commandments of God.

Just out of curiosity, what scripture are you referring to when you say this? The only one jumping to mind based on what you've written is in 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul is detailing the solemnity and somberness of the Lord's Supper, and how a man ought to examine himself before partaking, saying that some have not done so and "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Cor 11:30).

And this is one of the things I respect most about you, even though I rather ardently disagree with you on many things. You will at least, more often than not, offer up scripture as supporting evidence of your position.

The Truth of God will be taught by the Spirit, regardless of how we feel about it, or how we understand it. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. From what I have read and studied, and from what I earnestly believe the Spirit has shown me through prayer and meditation on the Word, Jesus did not teach TULIP. This is not to say that the entirety of TULIP is a lie, because it is not. I'm merely pointing out that I do not see TULIP in the teaching of Christ. According to you, Brother Icon, that means I'm not one of His sheep.

This is, in many ways, a far more hurtful statement than the idea that someone who does not hold to TULIP is simply not well-educated concerning theology. This is a roundabout questioning of the salvation of every non-Cal / non-TULIP BB member. I hope that was not your intention.

Back to what I wrote at the beginning, this is a fairly arrogant statement, Brother Icon. There seems to exist a mindset among certain Calvinists that, if you don't agree with their stance, or if you don't buy in to TULIP, then you simply don't understand it well enough. This might be a well-intentioned statement on your part, with no ill-will meant, but it comes off as a way of saying "I know more about theology than you do. If you were smarter, you would agree with me." Again, I don't know that you meant it that way, but that's definitely how I read it.

Yes, the work of Christ on the cross was perfect, otherwise the statement "It is finished" is in error. However, you are using this to set up what amounts to a trick question. It's a common Calvinist question, as I will try to explain.

Here's where the set-up comes into play. As SBM used to do, this is basically a "yes or no" question that attempts to force the one questioned to answer in only the way the questioner wants them the answer. If we say "yes" then you get the answer you want. If we say "no" then you can accuse us of preaching a false gospel. If we say "conditionally," then you can still accuse us of a false gospel. The set up is in the Calvinist often acting as though allowing man to have free will somehow negates or weakens the work of Christ on the cross, or weakens the blood of Jesus.

Yes, without shedding of blood their is no remission. That was how we came to salvation; all who are saved.

No...we can bicker about salvation in the Old Testament and pre-Cross, but per the Word the atonement came through the blood.

Again, we are right back to the worn-out Calvinist position of "I am right, and you are wrong. I am smarter, you are not. I have been revelated by God, you can continue to seek his revelation." After all, if you don't believe in predestination and Calvinistic election, then you obviously don't believe the Bible (merely the inverse of your comment above).

 

As much as I dont get along with Iconoclast, I have to say I agree with him in most things theologically, but he isnt saying that if your not a Calvinist then your not saved.....and I dont know what his reasoning is but he just feels you are in error about salvation doctrine.

My own explanation, after much dialog with you guys is simply that your priori presupposition does not include a sovereign God. In that, I can only come to one conclusion -- you all are yet in rebellion against holy God.

Now if Icon feels that way, he might be assertive with you.... me, I could care less. If the Lord chose you then eventually you will see the truth......I just consider you a work in progress. Now Id never go to one of your churches....LOL

 

I will 3rd that:smilewinkgrin:

 

I understand your point. I can only speak for myself, but when I pray for someone to be saved, I do ask that God move in the person's life; to allow them to hear the gospel preached; and to convict them in the heart so that they repent and are saved. See, I believe God has to move on the person first, but unlike Calvinists, I believe God still allows us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

I feel like you do, but only about Calvinists/Predestinationists instead of Synergists.

 

PreachTony

I do not believe it is arrogant at all.I believe it is quite accurate.

I say what I mean Pt.....no need to "read Between the lines".
My statement was clear. All believers are Cals...different levels of growth, and understanding.

Do not hide behind SBM. He stands alone.

No one stops you from holding to this unbiblical carnal philosophy.
You are welcome to it. Scripture teaches no such thing however. Because men can choose does not address the condition of the will.
I do not say you are arrogant or ignorant....but you and others are clearly mistaken. Holding to this error will hinder you from seeing truth.
This false presupposition allows you to set aside clear verses for your "feelings" instead.

I would ask you to read what I said more carefully. I have not said anyone is less educated as Spiritual truth is revealed by the Spirit.
man by wisdom..KNEW NOT GOD.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No..it is not the truth of God. It is in error directly opposed to the truth of God. Every Believer is a CAL in that the truth they do have is only so as it holds to the biblical teaching.

Free will ism and Arminian error obscure the truth and hinder people in the same way Rc error[praying rosary beads, lighting candles, holy water, etc ] are errors that hinder people.
Like barnacles that attach to a boat, or seaweed wrapped around the propeller of a boat are not part of the boat and only hinder it.

It is not like burger king theology...have it your way...No. There is truth and there is error, no mix, no blend...

Many who think they are non cals will transition. There are many Godly men who did not hold to all 5....but they were in substantial agreement with most of the teaching.

Sheep are free to serve and obey God. Sheep are never "free" to sin;
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another

No...as it does not exist...it takes a sinful failure to obey and self will.

2thess1;
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2thess2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

PT...we are always to be about scripture.

Exactly:thumbsup:

I disagree with your assessment 100% He did and it can be easily shown.

This is what I am talking about PT...right here- If you start a fresh thread among those who would claim to be non cal believers and asked them to say which parts of The 5pts they agree with , you would find if they were being honest about it, they would agree with most of it.

I have not said that anywhere. All the sheep are Cals and do not know it yet.

You have wrong ideas, but so do some who say they are cals:laugh:

Everyone is still learning but the truth does not change. You do not see tulip you say, but yet you claim to see some of it.Which part do you see?

You see part of it, another sees a different part of it, and sooner or later the whole teaching is seen

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this post should clarify the concern.

To turn it around a bit....to see people speak against the truth could also be seen as quite arrogant.

If the professed non cal cannot explain the teaching accurately without making massive strawmen arguments[even if they do not hold it as biblical] why should the charge not be made that they do not understand the position?


I can give an accurate presentation of cult theology without holding it as truth.I could give the Presbyterian teaching on baptism without being a padeo.

that would be a starting place.

If I have not clarified it by now... ask more specific questions.

Not a trick question...just smaller parts of the main teaching to see what is agreed upon.

I will not answer for SBM...he stands alone.

 

And here you have a prime example of why discussions on this board go south. This out and out and very intentional misrepresentation of another's view is a disgusting and unChristian post.

 

Earth, Wind & Fire

If we get along, or do not get along we should come here seeking truth and to improve our ability to deal with the unsaved who are perishing.
After awhile everyone sort of knows the people on the other side of the keyboard even if we have not met in person.
We have some friction because we both call it like we see it. You are not the only person from the Northeast. I know what is happening and what you speak of, but I come right at you for what I believe to be wrong attitudes toward the church....such as it is. You come back at me with some return fire..so it is what it is:thumbs:

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It is possible I am not the most tactful person on BB, but I intend to be in or around the scripture on each issue. That is my main concern .

and...there you have it:thumbs: