Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

[Reformed]

So you believe there are two separate types of faiths going on here. One, the faith that God gives to believe on Jesus Christ (saving faith) and two, the faith which comes from an individuals own self will.

No. There is only one type of saving faith and it is given by God (c.f. Eph. 2:8-9). Individuals do not possess this type of faith unless it is given by God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Self will can hinder the Holy Spirit? Interesting. Kinda sounds like the Spirit can be resisted.

No...God is not mocked. If someone ridicules the truth they are probably not going to be given more anytime soon. In Acts 7 stephen says there are some who resist right into second death.
The effectual call is not ultimately resisted. Several give testimony to having resisted God for a long time, but he over-rules.

 

[robustheologian]

Well, faith is a gift from God. Sinners do not possess saving faith in and of themselves. The very faith they need to exercise in order to believe is given by God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Grace, faith, and salvation are all part of the gift of God. That said, yes, the sinner must exercise faith; he must believe. No Monergist denies that. If they do they are wrong.

This guy definitely gets it. :thumbs: Faith is most definitely a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29).

 

[steaver]

No. There is only one type of saving faith and it is given by God (c.f. Eph. 2:8-9). Individuals do not possess this type of faith unless it is given by God.

I did not say two types of "saving faith".

 

[Reformed]

I did not say two types of "saving faith".

Same thing, Take "saving" out of it if you like. Faith is faith. It is typically referred to as "saving faith" when the subject is salvation.

 

[steaver]

No...God is not mocked. If someone ridicules the truth they are probably not going to be given more anytime soon. In Acts 7 stephen says there are some who resist right into second death.
The effectual call is not ultimately resisted. Several give testimony to having resisted God for a long time, but he over-rules.

Sorry to inform you brother, you are not God, and you are not an apostle either.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not if I had a choice. If I was providentially hindered from going to a like-minded church, I would seek an alternative. Not all Synergist pastors are rabid-Synergists. I used to attend a Baptist church in New Jersey back in the early 80's. The pastor at that time (who is a very dear friend of mine) was not a Monergist, and still is not. But in his preaching and teaching, Synergism vs. Monergism was never mentioned. When he called on sinners to repent and believe, he did a very good job of presenting the Gospel. If I was forced to attend a church like that, I would. Because of my doctrinal distinctives I may not be able to join that church, but I would faithfully attend.

Well just so you know, they don't respond back to me after I tell them I'm a 5 pointer and Amil.

 

[Reformed]

Well just so you know, they don't respond back to me after I tell them I'm a 5 pointer and Amil.

Is it necessary to make an issue out of it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Self will can hinder the Holy Spirit? Interesting. Kinda sounds like the Spirit can be resisted.

Id like to see some examples of the spirit being resisted, I contend that it is not resisted....if you are a child of God His will out.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is it necessary to make an issue out of it?

Yes....if you are a true believer and honest. I was this to one pastor who told me it didn't make a difference but then he tried to sway me to free will and Dispys beliefs. That was dishonest. Another told me he doesn't want me in his church...get it, "his church "....at least he was honest about it.

But yes, it is a big deal to me so yes I'm going to mention it....and what's more I ain't changing to accommodate them.....so I'm not invited.

 

[PreachTony]

Self will can hinder the Holy Spirit? Interesting. Kinda sounds like the Spirit can be resisted.

No...God is not mocked. If someone ridicules the truth they are probably not going to be given more anytime soon. In Acts 7 stephen says there are some who resist right into second death.
The effectual call is not ultimately resisted. Several give testimony to having resisted God for a long time, but he over-rules.

I believe the Spirit can be resisted, otherwise Paul would not have instructed the Thessalonian church to avoid "quenching" the Spirit. I think what happens is often we find a disconnect and a miscommunication between Cals and non-Cals when discussing "Irresistible Grace." Some folks, Cal and non-Cal alike seem to think the Spirit of God is always and at all times Irresistible, but that is not a truth born in the Bible. If it were, then Paul was wrong in writing what he wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5.

 

[PreachTony]

All true believers are Calvinists even if they do not realize it yet. They realize it when they pray and asks God to save a person.

Let me begin by saying I love you, Brother Icon...but this is an arrogant worldview concerning theology. There is a "read-between-the-lines" undertone here that basically says if you don't hold to Calvinism then you are not really a true believer. It's not as broad-brushing as SBM's comment a few months ago that anyone who doesn't hold to TULIP as the gospel is not saved, but it's a pretty wide brush nonetheless.

I'm quite ardent in my belief of free will, but I would never paint someone who disagreed with my theological interpretation as somehow less educated (as you intentionally or unintentionally do later in your post) or as not truly in belief.

The first group of quotes showed that God reveals His truth to His sheep.

Calvinism is the teaching of God's truth. God saves His sheep, God instructs His sheep.

So "free will," Arminianism, and any other Christian-based non-Calvinist form of teaching is NOT God's truth?

Disobedience on the part of the sheep, a proud spirit, self will can hinder the reception of the truth in the same way a husband who does not dwell with his wife according to knowledge has his prayers hindered

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered

How can the sheep be disobedient if they are irresistibly elected unto salvation? Seems it would take free will on the part of the sheep in order to be disobedient to the commandments of God.

If someone does not believe in the truth they will not be saved...If God is the one who reveals truth to His sheep, He will give them what they need.
The scripture speaks of many who perish because they do not receive a love of the truth.

Just out of curiosity, what scripture are you referring to when you say this? The only one jumping to mind based on what you've written is in 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul is detailing the solemnity and somberness of the Lord's Supper, and how a man ought to examine himself before partaking, saying that some have not done so and "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Cor 11:30).

Not everyone holds or believes as I do...some are firmer, some are more soft. Others might agree in general but not be comfortable defending what I say. I will defend what i say.

And this is one of the things I respect most about you, even though I rather ardently disagree with you on many things. You will at least, more often than not, offer up scripture as supporting evidence of your position.

So then this dispute is about what is the content of the TRUTH...not about whether or not a person must be illuminated by the Spirit.

I understand it as the truth of God so of course He will teach it.

The Truth of God will be taught by the Spirit, regardless of how we feel about it, or how we understand it. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. From what I have read and studied, and from what I earnestly believe the Spirit has shown me through prayer and meditation on the Word, Jesus did not teach TULIP. This is not to say that the entirety of TULIP is a lie, because it is not. I'm merely pointing out that I do not see TULIP in the teaching of Christ. According to you, Brother Icon, that means I'm not one of His sheep.

This is, in many ways, a far more hurtful statement than the idea that someone who does not hold to TULIP is simply not well-educated concerning theology. This is a roundabout questioning of the salvation of every non-Cal / non-TULIP BB member. I hope that was not your intention.

I think you say this because you do not have a firm grasp on it yet. Depending on how things are asked and explained makes a difference.

Back to what I wrote at the beginning, this is a fairly arrogant statement, Brother Icon. There seems to exist a mindset among certain Calvinists that, if you don't agree with their stance, or if you don't buy in to TULIP, then you simply don't understand it well enough. This might be a well-intentioned statement on your part, with no ill-will meant, but it comes off as a way of saying "I know more about theology than you do. If you were smarter, you would agree with me." Again, I don't know that you meant it that way, but that's definitely how I read it.

I could ask you questions on the L in a way that you would respond to the questions with a yes answer on most all of them....so in effect you would agree to the truth without actually realizing it.

Was the work of Jesus on the cross perfect?

Yes, the work of Christ on the cross was perfect, otherwise the statement "It is finished" is in error. However, you are using this to set up what amounts to a trick question. It's a common Calvinist question, as I will try to explain.

Does the blood of Jesus save everyone who is covered by it?

Here's where the set-up comes into play. As SBM used to do, this is basically a "yes or no" question that attempts to force the one questioned to answer in only the way the questioner wants them the answer. If we say "yes" then you get the answer you want. If we say "no" then you can accuse us of preaching a false gospel. If we say "conditionally," then you can still accuse us of a false gospel. The set up is in the Calvinist often acting as though allowing man to have free will somehow negates or weakens the work of Christ on the cross, or weakens the blood of Jesus.

Is everyone who is saved , saved by the blood of Jesus?

Yes, without shedding of blood their is no remission. That was how we came to salvation; all who are saved.

Can anyone be saved by any other way?

No...we can bicker about salvation in the Old Testament and pre-Cross, but per the Word the atonement came through the blood.

If they believe the bible they must believe in the verses on election and predestination. They might have been given the wrong information about it, but in time they will see it.

The teaching of Calvinism= the truth of God. Jesus and the Apostles taught these things. Theologians have seen these truths in the word of God.

Again, we are right back to the worn-out Calvinist position of "I am right, and you are wrong. I am smarter, you are not. I have been revelated by God, you can continue to seek his revelation." After all, if you don't believe in predestination and Calvinistic election, then you obviously don't believe the Bible (merely the inverse of your comment above).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As much as I dont get along with Iconoclast, I have to say I agree with him in most things theologically, but he isnt saying that if your not a Calvinist then your not saved.....and I dont know what his reasoning is but he just feels you are in error about salvation doctrine.

My own explanation, after much dialog with you guys is simply that your priori presupposition does not include a sovereign God. In that, I can only come to one conclusion -- you all are yet in rebellion against holy God.

Now if Icon feels that way, he might be assertive with you.... me, I could care less. If the Lord chose you then eventually you will see the truth......I just consider you a work in progress. Now Id never go to one of your churches....LOL

 

[Reformed]

Let me begin by saying I love you, Brother Icon...but this is an arrogant worldview concerning theology. There is a "read-between-the-lines" undertone here that basically says if you don't hold to Calvinism then you are not really a true believer. It's not as broad-brushing as SBM's comment a few months ago that anyone who doesn't hold to TULIP as the gospel is not saved, but it's a pretty wide brush nonetheless.

I will not speak for Icon. He is a grown man and can speak for himself. However, he does bring up a good point about Synergist prayers.

If you, a Synergist, pray for someone to be saved, what are you really asking God to do? If you are praying, consistent with your theology, then you really cannot ask God to save anyone. After all, man has free will and can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation. According to Synergist theology God will not violate man's free will. So then, how can you, or any other Synergist, ask God to save someone? If you were to pray, consistent with your theology, you would ask God to allow the sinner to at least hear the Gospel; something like, "Father, I ask you to let my cousin Bob hear the Gospel." That is it. You cannot pray, "Father, I pray that you save my cousin Bob."

As for me, I do not believe just because someone is a Synergist that they are not a Christian. I believe they are in error, but if they have truly placed their faith in Christ, then they are a child of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will 3rd that:smilewinkgrin:

 

[PreachTony]

I will not speak for Icon. He is a grown man and can speak for himself. However, he does bring up a good point about Synergist prayers.

If you, a Synergist, pray for someone to be saved, what are you really asking God to do? If you are praying, consistent with your theology, then you really cannot ask God to save anyone. After all, man has free will and can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation. According to Synergist theology God will not violate man's free will. So then, how can you, or any other Synergist, ask God to save someone? If you were to pray, consistent with your theology, you would ask God to allow the sinner to at least hear the Gospel; something like, "Father, I ask you to let my cousin Bob hear the Gospel." That is it. You cannot pray, "Father, I pray that you save my cousin Bob."

As for me, I do not believe just because someone is a Synergist that they are not a Christian. I believe they are in error, but if they have truly placed their faith in Christ, then they are a child of God.

I understand your point. I can only speak for myself, but when I pray for someone to be saved, I do ask that God move in the person's life; to allow them to hear the gospel preached; and to convict them in the heart so that they repent and are saved. See, I believe God has to move on the person first, but unlike Calvinists, I believe God still allows us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

I feel like you do, but only about Calvinists/Predestinationists instead of Synergists.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Let me begin by saying I love you, Brother Icon...but this is an arrogant worldview concerning theology.

I do not believe it is arrogant at all.I believe it is quite accurate.

There is a "read-between-the-lines" undertone here that basically says if you don't hold to Calvinism then you are not really a true believer.

I say what I mean Pt.....no need to "read Between the lines".
My statement was clear. All believers are Cals...different levels of growth, and understanding.

It's not as broad-brushing as SBM's comment a few months ago that anyone who doesn't hold to TULIP as the gospel is not saved, but it's a pretty wide brush nonetheless.

Do not hide behind SBM. He stands alone.

I'm quite ardent in my belief of free will,

No one stops you from holding to this unbiblical carnal philosophy.
You are welcome to it. Scripture teaches no such thing however. Because men can choose does not address the condition of the will.
I do not say you are arrogant or ignorant....but you and others are clearly mistaken. Holding to this error will hinder you from seeing truth.
This false presupposition allows you to set aside clear verses for your "feelings" instead.

but I would never paint someone who disagreed with my theological interpretation as somehow less educated (as you intentionally or unintentionally do later in your post) or as not truly in belief.

I would ask you to read what I said more carefully. I have not said anyone is less educated as Spiritual truth is revealed by the Spirit.
man by wisdom..KNEW NOT GOD.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So "free will," Arminianism, and any other Christian-based non-Calvinist form of teaching is NOT God's truth?

No..it is not the truth of God. It is in error directly opposed to the truth of God. Every Believer is a CAL in that the truth they do have is only so as it holds to the biblical teaching.

Free will ism and Arminian error obscure the truth and hinder people in the same way Rc error[praying rosary beads, lighting candles, holy water, etc ] are errors that hinder people.
Like barnacles that attach to a boat, or seaweed wrapped around the propeller of a boat are not part of the boat and only hinder it.

It is not like burger king theology...have it your way...No. There is truth and there is error, no mix, no blend...

Many who think they are non cals will transition. There are many Godly men who did not hold to all 5....but they were in substantial agreement with most of the teaching.

How can the sheep be disobedient if they are irresistibly elected unto salvation?

Sheep are free to serve and obey God. Sheep are never "free" to sin;
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another

Seems it would take free will on the part of the sheep in order to be disobedient to the commandments of God.

No...as it does not exist...it takes a sinful failure to obey and self will.

Just out of curiosity, what scripture are you referring to when you say this?

2thess1;
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2thess2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And this is one of the things I respect most about you, even though I rather ardently disagree with you on many things. You will at least, more often than not, offer up scripture as supporting evidence of your position.

PT...we are always to be about scripture.

The Truth of God will be taught by the Spirit, regardless of how we feel about it, or how we understand it. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Exactly:thumbsup:

From what I have read and studied, and from what I earnestly believe the Spirit has shown me through prayer and meditation on the Word, Jesus did not teach TULIP.

I disagree with your assessment 100% He did and it can be easily shown.

This is not to say that the entirety of TULIP is a lie, because it is not.

This is what I am talking about PT...right here- If you start a fresh thread among those who would claim to be non cal believers and asked them to say which parts of The 5pts they agree with , you would find if they were being honest about it, they would agree with most of it.

I'm merely pointing out that I do not see TULIP in the teaching of Christ. According to you, Brother Icon, that means I'm not one of His sheep.

I have not said that anywhere. All the sheep are Cals and do not know it yet.

You have wrong ideas, but so do some who say they are cals:laugh:

Everyone is still learning but the truth does not change. You do not see tulip you say, but yet you claim to see some of it.Which part do you see?

You see part of it, another sees a different part of it, and sooner or later the whole teaching is seen

This is, in many ways, a far more hurtful statement than the idea that someone who does not hold to TULIP is simply not well-educated concerning theology. This is a roundabout questioning of the salvation of every non-Cal / non-TULIP BB member. I hope that was not your intention

.


this post should clarify the concern.

Back to what I wrote at the beginning, this is a fairly arrogant statement, Brother Icon.

To turn it around a bit....to see people speak against the truth could also be seen as quite arrogant.

There seems to exist a mindset among certain Calvinists that, if you don't agree with their stance, or if you don't buy in to TULIP, then you simply don't understand it well enough.

If the professed non cal cannot explain the teaching accurately without making massive strawmen arguments[even if they do not hold it as biblical] why should the charge not be made that they do not understand the position?


I can give an accurate presentation of cult theology without holding it as truth.I could give the Presbyterian teaching on baptism without being a padeo.

that would be a starting place.

This might be a well-intentioned statement on your part, with no ill-will meant, but it comes off as a way of saying "I know more about theology than you do. If you were smarter, you would agree with me." Again, I don't know that you meant it that way, but that's definitely how I read it.

If I have not clarified it by now... ask more specific questions.

Yes, the work of Christ on the cross was perfect, otherwise the statement "It is finished" is in error. However, you are using this to set up what amounts to a trick question. It's a common Calvinist question, as I will try to explain.

Not a trick question...just smaller parts of the main teaching to see what is agreed upon.

I will not answer for SBM...he stands alone.

Again, we are right back to the worn-out Calvinist position of "I am right, and you are wrong.[/QUOTE

What if it is exactly that PT? are you okay with it?

I am smarter, you are not.

I have been revelated by God, you can continue to seek his revelation." After all, if you don't believe in predestination and Calvinistic election, then you obviously don't believe the Bible (merely the inverse of your comment above).

A person can have questions about election and predestination, but if they rebel and deny it how can they be sheep?

 

[Revmitchell]

If you, a Synergist, pray for someone to be saved, what are you really asking God to do? If you are praying, consistent with your theology, then you really cannot ask God to save anyone. After all, man has free will and can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

And here you have a prime example of why discussions on this board go south. This out and out and very intentional misrepresentation of another's view is a disgusting and unChristian post.

 

[Reformed]

I understand your point. I can only speak for myself, but when I pray for someone to be saved, I do ask that God move in the person's life; to allow them to hear the gospel preached; and to convict them in the heart so that they repent and are saved. See, I believe God has to move on the person first, but unlike Calvinists, I believe God still allows us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

I feel like you do, but only about Calvinists/Predestinationists instead of Synergists.

Well, then, you seem your prayers seem to be consistent with you theology. I also appreciate your honesty. Thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Earth, Wind & Fire

As much as I dont get along with Iconoclast,

If we get along, or do not get along we should come here seeking truth and to improve our ability to deal with the unsaved who are perishing.
After awhile everyone sort of knows the people on the other side of the keyboard even if we have not met in person.
We have some friction because we both call it like we see it. You are not the only person from the Northeast. I know what is happening and what you speak of, but I come right at you for what I believe to be wrong attitudes toward the church....such as it is. You come back at me with some return fire..so it is what it is:thumbs:

I have to say I agree with him in most things theologically, but he isnt saying that if your not a Calvinist then your not saved.....and I dont know what his reasoning is but he just feels you are in error about salvation doctrine

.

It is possible I am not the most tactful person on BB, but I intend to be in or around the scripture on each issue. That is my main concern .

My own explanation, after much dialog with you guys is simply that your priori presupposition does not include a sovereign God. In that, I can only come to one conclusion -- you all are yet in rebellion against holy God.

Now if Icon feels that way, he might be assertive with you.... me, I could care less. If the Lord chose you then eventually you will see the truth......I just consider you a work in progress. Now Id never go to one of your churches....LOL

and...there you have it:thumbs: