The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality

[The Biblicist]

Darrel,

Your intepretative model demands that until the cross there could be no redemptive benefits obtained by the cross that could be administered previous to the cross.

However, the scripture clearly contradicts that interpretative model.

For example,

Abraham is set forth as the pattern for "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" - Rom. 4:11; 16; Gal. 3:6-8 as believers in the gospel.

Second, Paul says that remission of sins and righteousness were both imputed to Abraham by faith, not merely prior to the cross, but prior to the act circumcision and I quote:

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Notice verse 10 does NOT say "when he lived before the cross or only after the cross."

Your whole system of interpretation directly contradicts this fact of Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again this is in reference to bodily resurrection (which occurs after one dies physically (which is all they knew at that time, they had not had the Mystery of the Rapture revealed to them)), not to regeneration, which takes place while one is alive.

Granted, it is in a context of resurrection and dealing with sadducees who believed man ceased to exist at the point of physical death. Grant all of that.

However, the term "living" is not synonymous with existence as "life" and "death" are both forms of existence in regard to the immaterial part of man. The immaterial part of the wicked after death is NEVER described as "liveth" because it is "dead" (separated spiritually from God). Jesus said in reference to Lazerus, who like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in the grave and the bodies were "dead" but in regard to their souls he said, "he that liveth and beleiveth in me shall never die." The body does dies, and it is the STATE OF LIFE in the soul that denies it shall "ever die". The soul is in a QUICKENED state rather than in a SEPARATED (dead) state of existence - both are in existence but only the QUICKENED soul can be said to be in a state of LIFE never the immaterial soul of the wicked.

So it is impossible for the soul to be in the state of LIFE apart from quickening or otherwise, it too is in a state of DEATH (separation from God). Remember, in regard to the immaterial part of man death and life are not to be understood as existence and cessation but TWO DIFFERENT FORMS of existence.

God is not the God of "THE DEAD" soul or body. But he is the God of the "LIVING" while in the body and out of the body - the quickened soul.

 

[The Biblicist]

Nor is it a dogmatic denial that being born again would take place at a future date.

Who is denying that the new birth takes place after Pentecost? But if you are suggesting that the intent of Christ was not present but future than he sure was a poor grammarian. He used the future tense whenever he pleased and it fit what he was saying. He did not use the future tense here and so it is you not I that is attempting to read in to the text what it clearly does not say.

According to your theory he should not even known of it until after Pentecost but Christ rebukes him for being ignornant of it there and then.

Ezekiel knew about the new birth (Ezek. 44:7 "uncircumcised in heart AND uncircumcised in the flesh) prior to Pentecost. The circumcised heart is a synonym of the new birth before and after Pentecost (Col. 2:11-12).

Your view READS INTO the text what is not there (eisgesis) but my view READS OUT OF the text what is there (aorist tense verbs).

 

[Yeshua1]

Agreed, and the "source" here is...Isaac.

Which is referring to the lineage in the flesh and is not a contrast between being born of the Spirit and being born of the flesh.

Note that in view are the "children of promise:" the primary mistake those who believe men were born again before Pentecost make is they impose fulfillment of the promise prior to it's being bestowed.

While the Spirit of God certainly ministered to, in, and through men prior to Pentecost, what we can say for certain is that the Ministry of the Spirit of God in the capacity of Comforter can be seen to begin at Pentecost, at which time the eternal indwelling of God began. It is a certainty that not one of the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Ghost until after Christ ascended:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


It is also a certainty that being born again requires faith in Christ, which while many (including the disciples of Christ Himself who ministered under the power of the Holy Spirit) believed in Christ in His earthly Ministry, did not understand Christ as Savior. Peter stood in direct opposition to the Gospel as seen here:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


We see Peter's fleshly mid at work when Peter takes up the sword in the Garden...in an attempt to thwart the very thing that Christ came to do.

If that is not enough, we see Peter, when the Lord is taken, deny that he even knew Christ.

Born again believer?

Not even close.

Again, the promise cannot be imposed into an Old Testament economy.


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John will again refer to the New Birth and how it is accomplished:


1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Prior to Pentecost no man had entered into the New Covenant. No man was Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It was not until the Spirit of God began taking up permanent residence in believers, who specifically believe on Christ, that the promise and promises of God were fulfilled. One member mentioned that the Old Testament Saints were not perfected until after their deaths, and we see that here:


Hebrews 12:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Again we consider the children of promise through Isaac and those born of the flesh, the premise of this entire treatment of the New Birth and it's imposition into an Old Testament Economy:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Now let's look at the Lord's statement again:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Where is the teaching He refers to found?


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Shall we, as did King David...plead with God not to take away His Spirit from us? Do we not understand that the indwelling of God in salvation in Christ is eternal?

The promise of the Spirit of God is just that, a promise...until it is bestoed and becomes a reality:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Christ reiterates this promise and John 14 and 16 inform us greatly about this coming fulfillment, which took place after the Cross and after Pentecost. One cannot be considered born again apart from the indwelling of God, and we can certainly make a distinction between the promised ministry of the Holy Spirit after Christ's Ascension and before. Shall we view the disciples' temporal expectation...


Acts 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


...as indicative of born again believers who understand Christ's death, burial, and resurrection?

Not at all.

The promise of the Spirit in the New Covenant fulfillment came when the New Covenant was established. Gentile Inclusion was a mystery prior to New Testament teaching following Pentecost, but that is precisely what took place when Christ began building His Church. Not one Old Testament Saint can be said to have received the promise or promises, for they were not made perfect (complete), which could only occur after Christ had paid the penalty for sin for those that would believe specifically on Him for salvation, thus overcoming the world through Christ.


God bless.

That is why the Bible states to us that we NOW are under a surer/better Covenant, as while the Lord remitted/held not the sins commited by his people against them due to the coming messiah, he actual gave to us now the Holy Spirit and new life in christ, as we are part of the church/Body of christ, the NT saints now are such...

The Holy spirit simple could not come to indwel ALL beleivers in jesus until Jesus had been born/died/raised again for our justification, and he came to seal and be with all of us...

Christ is us, the hope of Glory, that is what the OT did not have, but was looking towards!

 

[HankD]

The Lord counters the error of the Sadducee who believed that when men died they ceased to exist, whereas the Lord points out that they had not ceased to exist, but their spirits lived on. In view is the Resurrection of the Dead, regeneration is not relevant. The former takes place after physical death, the latter takes place while one is still alive. The glorification of the Church in the Rapture was, like the Gospel of Christ, a mystery until later revealed. The division between those that embraced the resurrection of the dead and those that did not is put to rest in the Lord's address of the Sadducees' error.


God bless.

On the surface that answer seems to bear some merit, however, the very language and verb tenses, of this passage speaks against your answer Darrell.

If the patriarchs had not been regenerated then they were dead in trespasses and sins, yet in the flesh and separated/alienated from God.

If what you say is true then it would seem that there is a different definition of saving faith for the OT saints resulting in a "salvation" without regeneration.


HankD

 

[HankD]

That is why the Bible states to us that we NOW are under a surer/better Covenant, as while the Lord remitted/held not the sins commited by his people against them due to the coming messiah, he actual gave to us now the Holy Spirit and new life in christ, as we are part of the church/Body of christ, the NT saints now are such...

The Holy spirit simple could not come to indwel ALL beleivers in jesus until Jesus had been born/died/raised again for our justification, and he came to seal and be with all of us...

Christ is us, the hope of Glory, that is what the OT did not have, but was looking towards!

The prophets did:

Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Again, why did Jesus expect Nicodemus a master in Israel to know of the new birth?

Some (well at least one) says that it was a future event however the grammar and syntax of John 3 do not IMO give credence to that concept.


HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

The prophets did:

Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Again, why did Jesus expect Nicodemus a master in Israel to know of the new birth?

Some (well at least one) says that it was a future event however the grammar and syntax of John 3 do not IMO give credence to that concept.


HankD

The OT prophets knew of his coming, of Him bringing to earth the promised new covenant, but they did not have all of it "nailed down", as they did have full understanding of all the coming events and timing of them...

And jesus remarks to him would be a gentle rebuke to how could he fail to see that in him was the promise of the messiah who was to come, and to be the one to bring in the new covenant for isreal foretold by OT prophets?

 

[The Biblicist]

You agree but I don't believe you are not comprehending what you are agreeing with. Adam was SPIRITUALLY separated from God the instant he sinned.

1. God IS spiritual light - separation from God is separation from spiritual light
2. God IS spiritual life - separation from God is separation from spiritual life
3. God IS holy - separation from God is separation fro righteousness

So the unregenerated state is a condition of spiritual separation from life, light and holiness = the fallen nature of man. For example Paul described the unregenerated state as follows:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1. Separation from Light - "darkened"
2. Separation from Life - "alienated from the life of God"
3. Separation from Holiness - "all uncleanness"

This is fallen man BEFORE and AFTER the cross.

Your problem is to explain how anyone existing before the cross in this universal fallen condition could exhibit the exact opposite characteristics without having these characteristics actually reversed? What would be the reversal?

1. Separation from light - union with light
2. Separation from life - union with life
3. Separation from holiness - union with holiness

The new birth/quickened/regeneration is nothing more or less than brought back into spiritual "union" with God as light, life and holiness.

The separation was SPIRITUAL and thus the reunion is SPIRITUAL.

Your problem is that Abel, Joseph, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, etc., etc. characterized the fruit of the Spirit (love, faith, joy, etc.) which are not works of the flesh or the fallen nature.

Moreover, spiritual "union' IS indwelling as it is impossible for the human spirit to be in union with the Holy Spirit without the HOly Spirit indwelling that person because his spirit dwells inside his body. Therefore, to be in "union" with man's spirit inside the body IS to indwell.

That is why Paul classifies only two possible conditions among human beings

1. Those "in the flesh" - Rom. 8:8-9a
2. Those "in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:9

If you are "in the flesh' you are "NONE OF HIS" and yet God claimed all those listed in Hebrew 11 who WALKED BY FAITH (a fruit of the Spirit).

In other words, spiritual union with God is the only possible explanation for any fallen human being at any time on earth to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as the fallen man is SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God who is life, light, holness and such things cannot be produced by the "works of the flesh."

There are only two possible kind of human beings on earth at any given time - those SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from life, light, holiness (God) and those IN SPIRITUAL UNION with life, light, holiness (God) as no other natural son of Adam is possible.

So how do you explain people prior to the cross exhibiting all the characteristics of LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS (regeneate state) if they continued in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION (unregenerate state) from the source of light/life/holiness??????

Gentleman again, no one has responded to this post. Your interpretative system is flawed. Every single text that has been used to deny regeneration prior to the cross has been dealt with many times over and when properly interpreted it does not support your system.

 

[Yeshua1]

Gentleman again, no one has responded to this post. Your interpretative system is flawed. Every single text that has been used to deny regeneration prior to the cross has been dealt with many times over and when properly interpreted it does not support your system.

we are not denying that God saved those in the Old testament, just that he had decided to remit, not hold their sins against them, but they were not exactly indwelt/filled with the Holy Spirit as we are now under the New covenant relationship with God...

Not every person saved by God in the scriptures under the Old Way was said to possess the Spirit, as that seemed reserved for Prophets/priests/Kings/Judges, those with special duties for the lord to perform...

And again, Paul in romans state it so well that while the law is perfect, the people in OT times were merely flesh, and could not keep the law, so God in the new covenant would write law on their hearts, and have Christ in us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit Himself!

And it seems many reformed/calvinists held this view that while the OT believers were 'saved/regenerated", did NOT experience Holy Spirit same fashion we do today...

 

[The Biblicist]

we are not denying that God saved those in the Old testament, just that he had decided to remit, not hold their sins against them, but they were not exactly indwelt/filled with the Holy Spirit as we are now under the New covenant relationship with God...

I know exactly what you believe and why you believe, and I am saying it is wrong! They were saved EXACTLY as we are - no difference, not one iota and the proof is that you nor Darrel can respond to my last post.

And again, Paul in romans state it so well that while the law is perfect, the people in OT times were merely flesh, and could not keep the law, so God in the new covenant would write law on their hearts, and have Christ in us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit Himself!

You have got to be jokin! That is not what God said about Abraham (Rom. 4:5-11) and he is the pattern for "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH". The law was NEVER given to save anyone at any time.

 

[The Biblicist]

You agree but I don't believe you are not comprehending what you are agreeing with. Adam was SPIRITUALLY separated from God the instant he sinned.

1. God IS spiritual light - separation from God is separation from spiritual light
2. God IS spiritual life - separation from God is separation from spiritual life
3. God IS holy - separation from God is separation fro righteousness

So the unregenerated state is a condition of spiritual separation from life, light and holiness = the fallen nature of man. For example Paul described the unregenerated state as follows:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1. Separation from Light - "darkened"
2. Separation from Life - "alienated from the life of God"
3. Separation from Holiness - "all uncleanness"

This is fallen man BEFORE and AFTER the cross.

Your problem is to explain how anyone existing before the cross in this universal fallen condition could exhibit the exact opposite characteristics without having these characteristics actually reversed? What would be the reversal?

1. Separation from light - union with light
2. Separation from life - union with life
3. Separation from holiness - union with holiness

The new birth/quickened/regeneration is nothing more or less than brought back into spiritual "union" with God as light, life and holiness.

The separation was SPIRITUAL and thus the reunion is SPIRITUAL.

Your problem is that Abel, Joseph, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, etc., etc. characterized the fruit of the Spirit (love, faith, joy, etc.) which are not works of the flesh or the fallen nature.

Moreover, spiritual "union' IS indwelling as it is impossible for the human spirit to be in union with the Holy Spirit without the HOly Spirit indwelling that person because his spirit dwells inside his body. Therefore, to be in "union" with man's spirit inside the body IS to indwell.

That is why Paul classifies only two possible conditions among human beings

1. Those "in the flesh" - Rom. 8:8-9a
2. Those "in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:9

If you are "in the flesh' you are "NONE OF HIS" and yet God claimed all those listed in Hebrew 11 who WALKED BY FAITH (a fruit of the Spirit).

In other words, spiritual union with God is the only possible explanation for any fallen human being at any time on earth to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as the fallen man is SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God who is life, light, holness and such things cannot be produced by the "works of the flesh."

There are only two possible kind of human beings on earth at any given time - those SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from life, light, holiness (God) and those IN SPIRITUAL UNION with life, light, holiness (God) as no other natural son of Adam is possible.

So how do you explain people prior to the cross exhibiting all the characteristics of LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS (regeneate state) if they continued in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION (unregenerate state) from the source of light/life/holiness??????

Gentleman, try something new for a change - TRY RESPONDING TO THE ABOVE POST if you can?

 

[HankD]

The OT prophets knew of his coming, of Him bringing to earth the promised new covenant, but they did not have all of it "nailed down", as they did have full understanding of all the coming events and timing of them...

And jesus remarks to him would be a gentle rebuke to how could he fail to see that in him was the promise of the messiah who was to come, and to be the one to bring in the new covenant for isreal foretold by OT prophets?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Christ is not speaking of a future event.

"born of the Spirit" is a perfect participle structure which indicates a condition which has occurred in the past with abiding results.

Young's Literal:
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

It does not say: every one who shall be born of the Spirit.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

You agree but I don't believe you are not comprehending what you are agreeing with.

It's not difficult friend...Adam died spiritually and this was through loss of intimate relationship with God.

Adam was SPIRITUALLY separated from God the instant he sinned.

That has already been established. As I said, until you address what has been said we will simply go in circles.

1. God IS spiritual light - separation from God is separation from spiritual light
2. God IS spiritual life - separation from God is separation from spiritual life
3. God IS holy - separation from God is separation fro righteousness

Your entire premise, like the OP...is based on assumption that is in error.

You paint the natural man as though there is no possibility of righteousness with him, but let me introduce you to a man who was not regenerate, who was not Baptized with the Holy Spirit...that was held in esteem by the Lord:


Acts 10

King James Version (KJV)

10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.


21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



This is Cornelius before being Born Again.

Now let's look at his salvation experience:


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Cornelius was an Old Testament Saint from among the Gentiles.

He was capable, just the other Gentiles Paul spoke about (under the Law):


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


The natural man is not totally void of the capacity for righteous works or for having fear of God. That does not mean, however...they are born again.

So the unregenerated state is a condition of spiritual separation from life, light and holiness = the fallen nature of man.

Agreed.

For example Paul described the unregenerated state as follows:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1. Separation from Light - "darkened"
2. Separation from Life - "alienated from the life of God"
3. Separation from Holiness - "all uncleanness"

This is fallen man BEFORE and AFTER the cross.

No, these are they that rebel against God.

Not all Gentiles could be described like this, this is simply a general description of those that are lawless.

So we correct this and say "This is man before regeneration."

Your problem is to explain how anyone existing before the cross in this universal fallen condition could exhibit the exact opposite characteristics without having these characteristics actually reversed?

You are seeing regeneration in a very limited light, as though those that are regenerated never sin, combined with the equally erroneous view that those that are unregenerate cannot accomplish righteous works.

This neglects the fact that salvation is a process accomplished through God's effort alone, in which our standing before God, even being regenerate, does not dismiss the flesh we remain in, whereby when we do sin again, and we will, the determination of God yet stands.

What I mean by that is that our righteousness which we accomplish in the flesh is not a result of something that is good in us, because we are righteous and holy and accomplish those things, but is due to first, God's declaration of the imputation of righteousness on our part (possible through Christ's Work), secondly, God's conforming us to the image of His Son, and probably the most important (practically speaking)...the indwelling of God. Love, Joy, Peace, et cetera, is fruit of...the Spirit.

Not us.

Again, God said "I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep my judgments." Now using the same reasoning you and others use to try to prove regeneration prior to Pentecost, we can say that if God had not placed His Spirit within Israel that they might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, but that this was a promise for a future time, then it is settled...they did not have the indwelling that He promised at that time.

Right?

What would be the reversal?

1. Separation from light - union with light
2. Separation from life - union with life
3. Separation from holiness - union with holiness

The new birth/quickened/regeneration is nothing more or less than brought back into spiritual "union" with God as light, life and holiness.

And that is the problem with those that impose the New Birth into the Old Testament Economies...they diminish the true magnitude of what God has done through Christ.

"Nothing more...nothing less."

The fact is that the Work of Christ is an awesome effort of redemption which has been foretold yet only revealed in these times. I have shown you numerous Scriptures which show this was a mystery, truth hidden from man and revealed specifically through the Holy Spirit in His capacity as Comforter, which Christ Himself distinguished as not being with, but in.

I am not surprised you refuse to respond to the Word presented.

The separation was SPIRITUAL and thus the reunion is SPIRITUAL.

This is true of Adam only, for all who descend from him were never in union with God, but are born without life.

We don't ascribe spiritual status to something that is not present.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Gentleman, try something new for a change - TRY RESPONDING TO THE ABOVE POST if you can?

It's funny you should demand this when you have addressed so little in the posts I have given in response to your view.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Your problem is that Abel, Joseph, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, etc., etc. characterized the fruit of the Spirit (love, faith, joy, etc.) which are not works of the flesh or the fallen nature.

And this is the key to understanding the Old Testament ministry of the Spirit of God: it was He that enabled men to perform that which corresponds to righteousness, whether that righteousness was for the purpose of Prophet, Priest, King, or worshipper.

Here is another distinction Christ makes between the economies of the Old and the New:


John 4:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


We know the Lord Himself kept the Law, so we do not suppose here He is saying that the worship offered according to the Law was faulty, but that there was coming a change which would not just affect the Samaritans, but the Jews as well.

That change was the coming of the New Covenant, through which the promises of God would be fulfilled, and the single-most important aspect of the New Covenant in regards to man's relationship with God is the Spirit of Promise. It is the indwelling on an eternal basis that differed from the relationships men held with God prior to that day. Israel was certainly in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law, but, He promised a relationship through Covenant that would be greater and contain a more complete nature than that of the Covenant of Law.

Even those outside of the Law, that is, Gentiles...could be in relationship with God by being obedient to the three witnesses of God Paul mentions: internal witness, Creation itself, and the Word of God.



Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

31What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



God has from the beginning revealed Himself to man through these three primary ways, and those found in obedience are regarded by God, and those who rebel are not.

Moreover, spiritual "union' IS indwelling as it is impossible for the human spirit to be in union with the Holy Spirit without the HOly Spirit indwelling that person because his spirit dwells inside his body. Therefore, to be in "union" with man's spirit inside the body IS to indwell.

No-one is arguing anything different.

In view is when this began according to New Covenant promise and standard.

If we suppose that natural man is completely ignored by God, then we might be able to embrace a view that man must be regenerate in order to do anything that hints of obedience to God. But the fact is clearly seen in the Gospels that the disciples preached, cast out demons, and healed, all under the power of the Holy Spirit, yet not one of them had a clue concerning Who Christ was in regards to Eternal Redemption.

And there is no evidence that Judas did not also preach, heal, and cast out demons.

The view that regeneration must precede any righteousness on a temporal level or that men cannot understand and believe without being regenerate can only lead to one conclusion: salvation can be lost. Because we see here...


2 Peter 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


...that there are men who willingly and knowingly reject the Ministry of the Comforter. They know the way of righteousness...and turn from it.

You really do not understand just how much conflict your view creates, and how much of that conflict that my view reconciles. All men, in this Age, are ministered to by the Holy Spirit in His Ministry as Comforter. That Ministry did not begin until after Christ ascended. And we see clearly that the Comforter ministers to...unbelievers:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

That is why Paul classifies only two possible conditions among human beings

1. Those "in the flesh" - Rom. 8:8-9a
2. Those "in the Spirit" - Rom. 8:9

And I agree with Paul. Those are the only two conditions man can be in.

However, Paul is speaking Post-Pentecost and Demonstrating New Covenant standard.

Paul was not a minister of the Law...


2 Corinthians 3:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


You can see the link and see that in view is the New Covenant, not the New Testament (Word of God).

If you are "in the flesh' you are "NONE OF HIS" and yet God claimed all those listed in Hebrew 11 who WALKED BY FAITH (a fruit of the Spirit).

And they received not the promises.

Now let's go back to your proof-text:


Romans 9

King James Version (KJV)


3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Again, the premise of the OP destroys the meaning of Paul's statement, trying to proof-text a view that is not even in the text. Ultimately the Seed is Christ, yet you have created a salvation by heritage theology.


Paul makes this clear:


Romans 9:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.


In view is not regeneration contrasted with natural or fleshly (as used in Chapter 8), but physical birth contrasting the efforts and will of man (Sarai and Abraham) and the efforts and will of God.

In other words, spiritual union with God is the only possible explanation for any fallen human being at any time on earth to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as the fallen man is SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God who is life, light, holness and such things cannot be produced by the "works of the flesh."

Wasn't the case concerning Cornelius.

Do you negate that which is recognized by God? Why do you think God brought about this event?

There are only two possible kind of human beings on earth at any given time - those SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from life, light, holiness (God) and those IN SPIRITUAL UNION with life, light, holiness (God) as no other natural son of Adam is possible.

Let me introduce you to a third: a born again believer walking in the flesh.

You have created a false dichotomy of wholly evil natural man and wholly holy regenerate. It doesn't work like that, my friend. We all that are regenerate go through a growth process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. As we strive to be obedient through the Spirit of God and gaining knowledge through Scripture which we can now understand...we learn to live holy, because He is Holy.

Our instantaneous transformation to sons of God does not preclude the flesh we remain in that yet remains unredeemed. Eternally speaking we are righteous, yet temporally and practically speaking the man that says he is sinless lies to himself.

Even Peter played the hypocrite in denying the Gentiles the same salvation the Jews received, in withdrawing from them when that certain came. Paul rebuked him to his face. And Peter had at this point probably accomplished more in evangelical efforts than probably any of us will accomplish in our entire lifetimes.

So how do you explain people prior to the cross exhibiting all the characteristics of LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS (regeneate state) if they continued in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION (unregenerate state) from the source of light/life/holiness??????

Because I do not view natural man as having become an animal.

Let me explain that:


James 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.


God, in His mercy, did not abandon man, though he fell. We did not become like the animals, but we are still the crowning creation of God, and the very reason why He created this universe to begin with. Keep in mind that this...


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


...does not speak of only the Elect, nor of only the saved, but means what it says: God so loved the world.

God has made provision for every man and woman ever born or will ever born, and this because of His love for the world. We are not saved because we love God, or attain to a certain righteousness, but the exact opposite: we are saved because we have to be, because there is nothing within our nature that can remove the penalty for sin or bring us into a righteous standing with God. That is entirely imputed on every aspect within our salvation, and it begins before we are ministered to by the Spirit of God:


1 John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


1 John 4:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.



Now, you tell me you think Cornelius, a man of good report, was born again before the event described in Acts 10.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Christ is not speaking of a future event.

"born of the Spirit" is a perfect participle structure which indicates a condition which has occurred in the past with abiding results.

Young's Literal:
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

It does not say: every one who shall be born of the Spirit.

HankD

So men can be born again without being Baptized with the Spirit?

The Baptism with the Spirit is not being empowered, but is the indwelling of God:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Here the disciples had not been Baptized with the Spirit. Why? Because the Lord made it clear that the Comforter could not come until He had returned to Heaven.


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The empowering of the Spirit of God, which is something He has performed from the beginning, follows the coming of the Comforter.

Even as Christ stated...


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


The ministry of the Spirit of God prior to Pentecost (which is the Day most will acknowledge the Comforter came) was external and was not, as the Lord states here...eternal (v.16).

He dwelt with them, but not in them (in the eternal sense).

Now, we expand on that to show the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, by which we know we are indwelt by God in His unity:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel,

Your intepretative model demands that until the cross there could be no redemptive benefits obtained by the cross that could be administered previous to the cross.

What is in view is redemption in it's progressive and final result.

Study Hebrews, this will clear it up.

As mentioned before, prior to the Cross and Pentecost we have a limited bestowal of God's intentions in regards to man's condition. In regards to atonement for sin...it did not take away sins. What that means is that, as I have said several times now, the people of faith under Old Testament Economies...died not having the penalty for their sin removed.

Only the Death of Christ could make atonement so that the sins of the sinner be satisfied, thus allowing reconciliation. Sin separates man from God, and until the penalty for sin had been offered, all that man had was the provision granted by God.

And under Old Testament standard, that was the death of animals as a temporary covering of sin, that men not be put to death for their own sin.

Under New Covenant standard the provision of atonement in completion is through faith in Christ.

You can try to rationalize the limited understanding of the Old Testament Saint as being satisfactory for reconciliation with God and the removal of the penalty of sin...but you're not going to support it from Scripture. The only means of attaining a righteous standard before God is to have the righteousness of the risen Christ imputed, by which it is His righteousness which stands without fault, allowing God to restore relationship which was hindered by the sin which separated us.

The limited understanding of the Old Testament Saint, perfectly exampled in Peter...was not the faith in Christ, and His death, which Christ Himself stated was the only means of attaining to eternal life, which He contrasts with the faith of the fathers in the Wilderness. As I said, "the fathers" very much include Moses, and Joshua, yet the Lord states "they are dead." The reason is that the provision was temporary, temporal, and physical. Manna sustained physical life, not spiritual. You have completely ignored the post dealing with this contrast concerning John 6, in which we see that it is at Christ's coming that the True Bread comes from Heaven (contrasted with manna in the Wilderness) and it is at that point that Eternal Life becomes available to man.

Not before.

It is necessary that a person believe on Christ in His capacity as Savior, and the disciples did not. As shown before...they were in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are diminishing the Cross of Christ by equating the salvation attained to in the Old Testament (which placed the faithful "on hold" in regards to the payment of the penalty for their sin, though they were declared just) to the salvation wrought by Jesus Christ. You do not see this at this time, but I can assure you, the Work of Christ by far eclipses the benefits of relationship with God attained to by the Old Testament Saint.

However, the scripture clearly contradicts that interpretative model.

For example,

Abraham is set forth as the pattern for "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" - Rom. 4:11; 16; Gal. 3:6-8 as believers in the gospel.

Second, Paul says that remission of sins and righteousness were both imputed to Abraham by faith, not merely prior to the cross, but prior to the act circumcision and I quote:

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Notice verse 10 does NOT say "when he lived before the cross or only after the cross."

Your whole system of interpretation directly contradicts this fact of Scripture.

On the contrary, there is nothing in Scripture to equate having faith with believing on the Name of the Risen Christ. Of course men had faith in the Old Testament, however, the focus of their faith is what is important.

That is why the Writer of Hebrews states we are not to lay again what is foundational, but to "go on unto perfection" which contrasts Old Testament Doctrine and practice with New:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


If you consult Chapter 5, you will see that in view is a rebuke for ignorance of the foundational principles of Christ, which those rebuked were in need of being taught again, though for the time they should have been...teachers.

He exhorts to leave the basic principles of the Doctrine of Christ and go on unto completion, which is in fact the Gospel of Christ. The Old Testament did not reveal the Mystery of Christ, nor did Christ Himself in His Ministry. It was spoken of, but show me even one person who understood that Christ would die in the stead of the sinner.

I have asked you to do this several times now and it has been ignored.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's funny you should demand this when you have addressed so little in the posts I have given in response to your view.


God bless.

It is not possible to answer all the texts you place in just one post. The posting space will not allow the room necessary to respond to your whole post. Why not take no more than two texts at a time that our posts can be managable?

 

[The Biblicist]

Your entire premise, like the OP...is based on assumption that is in error.

You paint the natural man as though there is no possibility of righteousness with him, but let me introduce you to a man who was not regenerate, who was not Baptized with the Holy Spirit...that was held in esteem by the Lord:

Here is the point where you depart from both scripture and common sense. If you had agreed at this point your whole system would have evaporated into nothing.

However, you flee to an ambiguous story to deny total depravity as taught plain in Romans 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Ephesians 4:18-19; Romans 3:9-18 and many other similar texts.

I say ambiguous because there are many things in this story that are debated. The order of receiving the Spirit in regard to water baptism. The term "saved" does not necessarily have to be limited to just one aspect of salvation (regeneration). You fled to this ambiguous passage in order to overthrow the fact that the Scripture plainly says and repeatedly says "there is none righteous NO NOT ONE" and yet you are attempting to interpret this ambiguous passage to directly contradict that Biblical axiom.

However, there is nothing ambiguous that God IS light; God IS life and God IS holy and spiritual death is spiritual separation from light, life and holiness as clearly depicted in the description of the unregenerate condition found in Ephesians 4:18-19 as stated in my OP.

So, you have not dealt with that aspect of the OP at all, but merely attempting to distract by fleeing to ambiguous passages to overthrow unambiguous passages. Another tactic of eisegesis.