The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality

[HankD]

Time.

That is the issue. But not for God.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Before the beginning of anything including the OT.

We are born spiritually dead.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Both these verbs (passed, sinned) are aorist tense, they happened at the same time. The moment Adam sinned he died spiritually and the death passed (aorist) through us all because we sinned (aorist) in him.

How then does Jesus say
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Before it is claimed that they were born anew?
How can those dead in trespasses and sins be the "friend of God", be "perfect" , be "righteous"?

By their faith? - If we say that then it seems one does not have to be born again to produce a faith good enough that God accepts sufficient in quality to be His friend.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Before it is claimed that they were born anew?
How can those dead in trespasses and sins be the "friend of God", be "perfect" , be "righteous"?

By their faith? - If we say that then it seems one does not have to be born again to produce a faith good enough that God accepts sufficient in quality to be His friend.

HankD

If that were true, WE would not have to be born again either to manifest the fruits of the Spirit, but faith could do it and we could remain spiritually separated from God dead in sin, without righteousness or light. You do have faith don't you? So if faith can do and faith can be all of that - no human needs rebirth. Isn't the "faith" before the cross like the "faith" after the cross?????

You are speaking about "faith" as though it (rather than the person) can be righteous and do righteousness while the person embracing faith is still dead in sins, still spiritually separated from God, still without light, still unholy. You are talking about "faith" as though it is a person as much as the person embracing the faith.

Hank, what you are saying is an impossible fantasy.

 

[HankD]

If that were true, WE would not have to be born again either to manifest the fruits of the Spirit, but faith could do it and we could remain spiritually separated from God dead in sin, without righteousness or light. You do have faith don't you? So if faith can do and faith can be all of that - no human needs rebirth. Isn't the "faith" before the cross like the "faith" after the cross?????

You are speaking about "faith" as though it (rather than the person) can be righteous and do righteousness while the person embracing faith is still dead in sins, still spiritually separated from God, still without light, still unholy. You are talking about "faith" as though it is a person as much as the person embracing the faith.

Hank, what you are saying is an impossible fantasy.

I know that. It was an "Argumentum ad absurdum" (In logic, a method employed to disprove an argument by illustrating how it leads to an absurd consequence).



HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

:thumbs: Ok, so I am slow!

I know that. It was an "Argumentum ad absurdum" (In logic, a method employed to disprove an argument by illustrating how it leads to an absurd consequence).



HankD

 

[HankD]

:thumbs: Ok, so I am slow!

Yes, I understand completely, it gets worse as you age ( I mean mellow).

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

It is the SPIRITUAL CONDITION of the fallen man since Genesis 3 forward that prevents any fallen human from displaying any characteristic of God in their person and through their lives. That fallen condition is in a state of war with God. Hence, no human being between the fall and the first coming of Christ can please God, serve God, or manifest the character of God unless there is a fundamental radical change to their SPIRITUAL CONDITION.

The fact that the Old and New Testament scriptures provide prolific examples of "godly" and "holy" human beings demands such a fundamental radical change to their SPIRITIUAL CONDITION did occur that manifested godliness and righteousness in the Person and life of those living prior to the first advent.

The New Testament Scriptures call that fundamental radical change of their SPIRITUAL CONDITION "circumcision in heart" (Col. 2:11) as does the Old Testament scriptures (Ezek. 44:7) among other things (born of God, children of God, regeneration, quickened;etc.).

The Old Testament promises that such a fundamental radical change would occur to the WHOLE NATION OF ISRAEL and the New Testament points forward to that fulfillment as still yet future (Rom. 11:25-28) as the nation of Israel presently cut off right now is the object of election (Rom. 11:28) still in the future while PRESENTLY the same Israel is said to be "enemies of the gospel for your sakes."

This NATIONAL application of the New Covenant (Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33-34) should not be denied as a PERSONAL application between Genesis and Matthew simply because the NATIONAL application has not yet been applied or fulfilled. That is precisely what dispensationalist do with these new birth descriptions in the Old Testament. They dismiss them because they are yet future in fulfillment and NATIONAL in fulfillment while ignoring the fact they are applicable to the INDIVIDUAL between Genesis and Matthew as fully illustrated in the case of Abraham.