The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality

[percho]

OK but when did they become alive unto God Jesus talking to the pharisees (around AD 30) put it in the present tense.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

HankD

When God called them and in reality even before they were born.

God called Abram. God elected Isaac before he was conceived. Same with Esau and Jacob.

Acts 15:14-17 says a lot about the salvation of man and here is what verse 18 says, Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's* at his coming. 1 Cor 15:22,23

The OT saints those who had the Holy Spirit died in the faith of the Abraham. The died in the bosom of the Abraham the very same as those who have died since the resurrection of Christ, die in Christ. They are Christ's.

* And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29

V16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[HankD]

When God called them and in reality even before they were born.

God called Abram. God elected Isaac before he was conceived. Same with Esau and Jacob.

Acts 15:14-17 says a lot about the salvation of man and here is what verse 18 says, Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's* at his coming. 1 Cor 15:22,23

The OT saints those who had the Holy Spirit died in the faith of the Abraham. The died in the bosom of the Abraham the very same as those who have died since the resurrection of Christ, die in Christ. They are Christ's.

* And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29

V16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

OK, (I guess).

HankD

 

[Robert William]

When God called them and in reality even before they were born.

God called Abram. God elected Isaac before he was conceived. Same with Esau and Jacob.

Acts 15:14-17 says a lot about the salvation of man and here is what verse 18 says, Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's* at his coming. 1 Cor 15:22,23

The OT saints those who had the Holy Spirit died in the faith of the Abraham. The died in the bosom of the Abraham the very same as those who have died since the resurrection of Christ, die in Christ. They are Christ's.

* And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29

V16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[The Biblicist]

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Robert, this is one of the most important passages of scripture in the Bible. It repudiates sacramentalism of Rome, it repudiates the hyper dispensationalist new post-Pentecost gospel. It repudiates the myth that justification by faith (remission of sins and imputed righteous) is only a Post-Pentecost reality. It repudiates works performed in OUR BODIES as the ultimate basis for justification. However, Romans 4;16-22 defines the very nature of gospel faith to exclude all works of any kind performed in, through or by those who are justified by faith, thus repudiating "faith" is "faithfulness" in regard to justification.

 

[Robert William]

Robert, this is one of the most important passages of scripture in the Bible. It repudiates sacramentalism of Rome, it repudiates the hyper dispensationalist new post-Pentecost gospel. It repudiates the myth that justification by faith (remission of sins and imputed righteous) is only a Post-Pentecost reality. It repudiates works performed in OUR BODIES as the ultimate basis for justification. However, Romans 4;16-22 defines the very nature of gospel faith to exclude all works of any kind performed in, through or by those who are justified by faith, thus repudiating "faith" is "faithfulness" in regard to justification.

:thumbsup: Biblisist, thanks for your help and backup.

 

[Deacon]

The act of being born is not something we do but something that is done to us.

The act of being “born again” is not something we do but something that is done by the Spirit in us.

The answer to this question depends upon one’s answer to the question asked in another thread; Did the Holy Spirit reside in believers of the OT in the same way he does in the NT?

IMO, “born again” is a NT figure of speech for something that was promised but not fully delivered in the OT.

Rob

 

[HankD]

The act of being born is not something we do but something that is done to us.

The act of being “born again” is not something we do but something that is done by the Spirit in us.

The answer to this question depends upon one’s answer to the question asked in another thread; Did the Holy Spirit reside in believers of the OT in the same way he does in the NT?

IMO, “born again” is a NT figure of speech for something that was promised but not fully delivered in the OT.

Rob

Hi Rob, others have said that and everything else being equal Jesus expected Nicodemus to know that even if it were a future event (grammar precludes that IMO).

Anyway Rob do you know where it might be in the OT?

I have not found it myself in the OT under the terms of the "new birth" so it must be there metaphorically.


Thanks
HankD

 

[percho]

The act of being born is not something we do but something that is done to us.

The act of being “born again” is not something we do but something that is done by the Spirit in us.

The answer to this question depends upon one’s answer to the question asked in another thread; Did the Holy Spirit reside in believers of the OT in the same way he does in the NT?

IMO, “born again” is a NT figure of speech for something that was promised but not fully delivered in the OT.

Rob

I agree. They heard about the faith to come that would bring forth the Holy Spirit of promise that would bring about what Romans 8:11 and 2 Cor 4:13,14 state.

that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. Gal 3:14 YLT Also 22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. (Believing, the called Rom 8:29 are the believing ones)

We received the Spirit having heard of the faith that did come. Jesus Anointed. Gal 3:23-26 and are children by Spirit of adoption awaiting the adoption.

Verses from above as to what the Spirit will do. R 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
2 Cor 4:13,14 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be. What?

 

[The Biblicist]

IMO, “born again” is a NT figure of speech for something that was promised but not fully delivered in the OT.

Rob

I think it is a failure to grasp what regeneration is designed to fix. What it is designed to fix, did not occur on Pentecost forward but in the fall of man in the Garden.

Simply stated the fundemental issue it addresses is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God WHO IS LIFE/LIGHT/HOLY. The opposite of spiritual "SEPARATION" is............spiritual UNION.

In the Fall man was SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God who is light, who is life and who is holy. That is the problem. If that problem is not addressed until Pentecost then all human beings prior to Pentecost lived and died in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God, thus spiritually dead, spiritually unholy and in spiritual darkness. To "quicken" means to GIVE LIFE! Not PHYSICAL life as the body still dies physically AFTER Pentecost as much as BEFORE Pentecost.

Furthermore, since what is born of Spirit is "SPIRIT" then regeneration occurs INSIDE of man. Quickening is simply the REUNION of the human spirit with God's Spirit OF LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS. Since the human spirit resides WITHIN man, then any spiritual UNION must also reside inside of man or there is no spiritual UNION. That inside union is called indwelling.

Regeneration is simply the restoration of fallen man to THREE conditions. To LIFE - spiritual. To LIGHT - metaphorical. To HOLINESS.

Just look at the description of the unregenerate state as described in Ephesians 4:18-19 and you will see it is the ABSENCE of these three issues.

1. The understanding is in DARKNESS - metaphorical ignorance VS union with Light
2. "alienated from THE LIFE of God" (thus spiritually dead) VS union with Life
3. "all uncleaness" VS union with Holiness

To deny regeneration/indwelling prior to Pentecost is to deny the must fundemantal aspects of salvation from the most fundamental aspects of the fall. If these fundemental issues are not addressed, there can be no goodness, no joy, no faith, no spiritual relationship to God at all.

Do you really believe there is any kind of salvation at all for anyone at any time OUTSIDE of Christ or in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God????? Do you really think only Post-Pentecost saints were the only ones "chosen IN HIM before the world began"???? Do you really think God has more FIXES for the FALL than ONE??

 

[Deacon]

Sure Biblist, the whole story of the OT is about people reaching for a renewal or restoration of their relationship with God. Ultimately it is God himself that provides the way through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is Jesus' story and is only completed in him.

These all died in faith without receiving the promises, but seeing them from a distance and welcoming them, and admitting that they were strangers and temporary residents on the earth. Hebrews 11:13 (Lexham English Bible)

And although they all were approved through their faith, they did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us. Hebrews 11:39–40 (LEB)

For we also were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, enslaved to various desires and pleasures, spending our lives in wickedness and envy, despicable, hating one another. But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration [rebirth] and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:3–7 (LEB)

Rob

 

[The Biblicist]

Sure Biblist, the whole story of the OT is about people reaching for a renewal or restoration of their relationship with God. Ultimately it is God himself that provides the way through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is Jesus' story and is only completed in him.

These all died in faith without receiving the promises, but seeing them from a distance and welcoming them, and admitting that they were strangers and temporary residents on the earth. Hebrews 11:13 (Lexham English Bible)

And although they all were approved through their faith, they did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us. Hebrews 11:39–40 (LEB)

For we also were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, enslaved to various desires and pleasures, spending our lives in wickedness and envy, despicable, hating one another. But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration [rebirth] and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:3–7 (LEB)

Rob

Rob, the promise that Hebrews 11:39-40 is still something WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR ALONG WITH THEM as neither they are us have yet received. It is the promise of entrance into the New Jerusalem UPON THE NEW EARTH - complete glorification - "made perfect" in body and soul.

You are saying, they lived and died in the state of SPIRITUAL DEATH in spiritual darkness and in complete spiritual unholiness. Totally incapable of pleasing God. Faith is the "fruit of the Spirit." Think about it!

 

[The Biblicist]

Rob, the promise that Hebrews 11:39-40 is still something WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR ALONG WITH THEM as neither they are us have yet received. It is the promise of entrance into the New Jerusalem UPON THE NEW EARTH - complete glorification - "made perfect" in body and soul.

You are saying, they lived and died in the state of SPIRITUAL DEATH in spiritual darkness and in complete spiritual unholiness. Totally incapable of pleasing God. Faith is the "fruit of the Spirit." Think about it!

I think the problem is that most Christians do not understand the basics of regeneration. If they did, they would never deny it as an Old Testament reality.

 

[Deacon]

Rob, the promise that Hebrews 11:39-40 is still something WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR ALONG WITH THEM as neither they are us have yet received. It is the promise of entrance into the New Jerusalem UPON THE NEW EARTH - complete glorification - "made perfect" in body and soul.

You are saying, they lived and died in the state of SPIRITUAL DEATH in spiritual darkness and in complete spiritual unholiness. Totally incapable of pleasing God. Faith is the "fruit of the Spirit." Think about it!

No, I'm saying they died in a state of PROMISE. under God's grace for their belief, they were justified by their faith in a Savior yet to come.

The new birth, or regeneration could not occur until our Savior completed his work on the cross.

Think about it, if new birth (regeneration) occurs prior to the cross, what need is there for his sacrifice?

Rob

 

[Robert William]

No, I'm saying they died in a state of PROMISE. under God's grace for their belief, they were justified by their faith in a Savior yet to come.

The new birth, or regeneration could not occur until our Savior completed his work on the cross.

Think about it, if new birth (regeneration) occurs prior to the cross, what need is there for his sacrifice?

Rob

Rob, if you say faith alone you are preaching another gospel of salvation by works, faith is a verb an action a belief done by man, the unmerited favor (grace) bestowed to him regenerates him, man then and only then believes by faith because he has been made a new creature, faith is NOT a self righteous act of man.:godisgood:

 

[Deacon]

I'm simply reading what the scriptures say, Bob.

For what does the scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness."

"Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited according to grace, but according to his due.

But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness, just as David also speaks about the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed [are they] whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins are covered over."
Romans 4:3-7 Lexham English Bible

Regeneration occurs when the credit is redeemed.

Rob

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I'm saying they died in a state of PROMISE. under God's grace for their belief, they were justified by their faith in a Savior yet to come.

I think the very reverse is what the Bible teaches in Romans 3:26-27. Based upon God's SURE MERCIES or SURE PROMISE of the cross redemption was applied then and there. Hence, the promise of God that Jesus would come is the basis for present application.

The new birth, or regeneration could not occur until our Savior completed his work on the cross.

Then how could any "fruit" of redemption be present and working in their lives????? Joy, faith, longsuffering, etc. which it certainly is present and characteristic of their walk. They WALKED by faith!

How could Abraham BE JUSTIFIED (sins remitted, righteousness imputed) and be the "BLESSED MAN" as Romans 4:5-11 unmistakenly claims he was and BEFORE he was circumcised much less before Christ came?????

Think about it, if new birth (regeneration) occurs prior to the cross, what need is there for his sacrifice?

Rob

The sacrifice made God "just" in applying it previous to the cross as God's promise of the coming Savior to make the provision proved to be true - Rom. 3:24-26.

If you follow out your idea, NO CHARACTERISTIC of redemption could be actually applied to their person and yet we find ALL the redemptive applications CHARACTERIZING their actual lives.

 

[Deacon]

I’m a bit confused and not really sure what your last post is saying. A promise applied is a promise fulfilled and therefore no longer a promise but a reality.

The argument Paul makes in Romans (4?) concerning the gentiles is that by nature even they followed the law of God, because they could exhibit in their own natural being “CHARACTERISTICS” of those who had been given the law, even they were condemned.

The OT alludes to regeneration with circumcision. OT scriptures also mention the softening of hardened hearts (Deut 30:6; Ez 36:26) as well as God working on the heart of a believer (Prov 3:3; 7:3; Jer 31:33). IMO all these are forward looking illustrations. Israel’s history is one of hope rather than fulfillment; of failure and weakness, not new life and regeneration.

Rob

 

[The Biblicist]

I’m a bit confused and not really sure what your last post is saying. A promise applied is a promise fulfilled and therefore no longer a promise but a reality.

I am saying what God promised was not that they shall be justified in the future when Christ died, but he promised that Christ would come so they could be justified RIGHT THEN at the point of faith in the promise that God would send a Savior.

The argument Paul makes in Romans (4?) concerning the gentiles is that by nature even they followed the law of God, because they could exhibit in their own natural being “CHARACTERISTICS” of those who had been given the law, even they were condemned.

He argues the very opposite of that - that "NO FLESH" could follow the law and be justified, that "ALL THE WORLD" was condemned by attempting to follow the law (Rom. 3:18-19) and the only CHARACTERISTICS exhibited by such who tried are those listed in Romans 3:10-17 - works of the flesh.

Again, you are demanding that CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SPIRIT were manifested in SPIRITUALLY DEAD persons (the true people of God) because you deny their condition of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION could be or was reversed by quickening. Think about it?

 

[Deacon]

I worded that whole sentence poorly. Anyway it wasn't Romans 4 but Romans 2:13–16 that I was referring to.

Paul notes there are times when gentiles by their nature, follow CHARACTERISTICS OF THE LAW.
Paul argues that this condemns them (we both agree with him!)



But I think the argument here was a rabbit trail away from the original intent of the intent of the thread.
I hate to bow out here but the thread has gotten so convoluted that I'm not sure what I'm arguing about anymore – my fault for starting in so late.



Regarding the initial issue of "The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality" – there are many different word pictures used in both the Hebrew Scriptures and in the NT – New birth and Regeneration are purely NT era depictions.

The OT does not use the "new birth" picture or a term like "regeneration" but uses terms such as creation, renewal, cleanse, among some others.

Ezekiel's valley of dry bones might conjure up that image.

And Psalm 51, where David cries for renewal "... create in me a clean heart!"
These are about as close as one can get to your original proposition.

Rob

 

[The Biblicist]

I worded that whole sentence poorly. Anyway it wasn't Romans 4 but Romans 2:13–16 that I was referring to.

Paul notes there are times when gentiles by their nature, follow CHARACTERISTICS OF THE LAW.
Paul argues that this condemns them (we both agree with him!)

Look at the immediate preceding and following context of Rom. 2:13-16. It is the final judgement at the END OF THE AGE and the only ones standing before it are lost people. This is a judgement "according to his works" UNDER LAW. Paul is merely addressing the self-righteous man and asserting he will have his day in a fair court according to works.

But I think the argument here was a rabbit trail away from the original intent of the intent of the thread.
I hate to bow out here but the thread has gotten so convoluted that I'm not sure what I'm arguing about anymore – my fault for starting in so late.

Fallen human nature is a CONSTANT before and after Pentecost and there is no other solution for that CONSTANT than a circumcised heart/new birth. Without it, there is NO ACCEPTABLE service before God as the ONLY thing the fallen nature can produce are "the works of the flesh" - -period!

Their state is a spiritually separated state from life, light and holiness and without those items you have no LIFE that can manifest anything but the "works of the flesh."

Regarding the initial issue of "The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality" – there are many different word pictures used in both the Hebrew Scriptures and in the NT – New birth and Regeneration are purely NT era depictions.

Circumcision in heart is a carry over (Ezek. 44:7; Col. 2:11) to mean the very same thing. New terms in the New Testament simply provide explanation of spiritual union with life (new birth) light (translated) righteousness (regeneration). New terms don't deny same experience.