Featured Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?

Nothing could be further from the truth.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."


819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

But, let's not turn this into another thread about baptismal regeneration or Catholicism.

 

People go to hell because they are NOT united to Christ and therefore don't have His perfect righteousness imputed to them, and thus their sins remain unforgiven. Rather, they remain dead in sins and separated from God. As the Scipture states: "He who has the Son has life, and he who does not have the Son does not have life". (1 John 5:12)

One has to actually be IN CHRIST to have his sins forgiven (Ephesians 1:7) and to have the righteousness of Christ (2 Cor 5:21). There is "no condemnation" for those who are IN CHRIST (Romans 8:1). However, OUTSIDE of Christ (or APART from Christ) we're ALL condemned (John 3:18, Romans 5:18) God's wrath abides upon us (John 3:36) and we're indeed by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are saved from wrath through HIM when we are actually justified by His blood (Romans 5:9) and we're justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

What this all means is that the Atonement, though objectively efficacious in God's righteous eyes, must be in some way provisional for sinful people. In other words, it must be subjectively appropiated/applied in order for ANYONE to benefit, and this includes "the elect" (however they are defined). Otherwise the commands for faith/repentance would be superfluous (if not meaningless), as "the elect" (at least) would already be saved (as one notorious poster here ceaselessly advocates) from birth apart from faith and repentance.

But Scripture repeatedly states that faith is a necessary condition for salvation--one is not saved unless he is united to the Saviour by grace through faith (EPH 2:8-9. etc). Likewise, the propitiatory sacrifice, though once offered objectively for our salvation and is eternally efficacious (as it is pleasing to God), must also be appropriated by faith:

"...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS, whom God set forth as a PROPITIATION by HIS BLOOD THROUGH FAITH... Romans 3:24-25.

Keeping all of this in mind, we see that the force of Owen's supposed trilemma evaporates. Although Christ made objective Atonement for our sins 2000 years ago on the Cross, all of us subjectively experience the just punishment for our sins--SPIRITUAL DEATH (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:1) because of our SEPARATION FROM GOD (IS 59:2)--until we are united to Christ through faith. (And, yes, this includes Calvinists :smilewinkgrin: ). HELL, sadly, is the extension of this separation from God and resulting spiritual death into eternity for those who have finally remained impenitent, which state will be confirmed at God's FINAL JUDGMENT.

(Now comes the part where I'm accused of being a 'Pelagian' or 'Semi-Pelagian', and that I believe in "man-centered salvation" and hold to the "free will idol", or that I just don't understand the fine print...er... the finer points of the "doctrines of [monergistic] grace" :thumbs: )

 

All I see in this post is a bunch if potentiality and not surety. Christ never came to potentially save anyone, but to save His people from their sins(Matt. 1:21). In John 10, Jesus stated He was the good Shepherd who would give His life for the sheep(vs. 11). Jesus said that all the Father gave Him will come to Him, and him who comes, He would not cast aside(John 6:37). Then in John 17, who did Jesus pray for? The world or those the Father gave Him, in which He atoned for their sins?

--I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given to me, because Thine they are...(vs. 9)

Now, you may think He is praying for those that were with Him @ that time, but not so...

--And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me[/u]; that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.(vv. 20,21)

Christ will save(not try to save) His people from their sins...

 

Yes, Christ will save those who repent and believe. None of what you wrote here negates this nor anything else I wrote above. Those who are of faith are the true people of God (Romans 4:16), but they are children of wrath (like everyone else) until they are united to Christ.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God intends to save ANYONE apart from faith and repentance. If you believe that, then you might as well throw out most of the Bible.

 

It's NOT? Good Grief! So much for one of the "Five Solas" of the Reformation.

Nonsense--faith is always depicted as the opposite of meritorious works in Scriptures, especially in PAUL'S writings (see Romans 3 and 4 for starters).

Indeed it does.

I agree. Those are the TWO "big questions", actually.

(In fact, rumor has it there's an entire subsection of the Baptistboard which seemingly deals with these questions continuously ^^^^ :smilewinkgrin: )

 

You're accusing me of saying that which I didn't. Nowhere have I said one is saved absent faith and repentance. Now that you laid this out, both faith and repentance are gifts of God. Seeing that the gifts and callings of God are w/o repentance(iow, not able to turn them away), how can everyone possibly be saved? For not everyone has faith(2 Thess. 3:2)...

 

Uhhhh...faith is not a work. We are saved by grace through faith. W/O faith, there's no salvation.

 

Wrong on so many levels. That last sentence doesn't even make any sense, and indeed (again) it is completely the opposite of Paul's argument in Romans.

Properly understood, these two do not conflict.

Interesting observation, and it may be true in some cases, but I doubt 'pelagian' (which seems to be horribly misused by some here) would be the best adjective for all of these folks you describe.

Those who suppose one can first turn to God and initiate their own salvation apart from God's prevenient grace are more accurately labeled "SEMI-Pelagian", and this idea of course was rightfully rejected by the Western Church at the Synod of Orange in AD 529. "Pelagianism", which was rejected over century earlier, was both a denial of original sin and the idea that folks can somehow earn their salvation by their deeds (*though it is doubtful based on his own writings that Pelagius himself would actually affirm this second proposition).

 

That wasn't my intent. If I did so, I apologize.

Good! :thumbs:

I agree. They're gifts in the sense that the natural man would unable to repent or believe apart from the supernatural enabling grace of God, yet these are still conditions for receiving salvation (ie we're SAVED THROUGH FAITH). We're the agents who actually repent and believe, ie God neither 'repents' or 'believes' for us (I suppose you would concur?) although he graciously enables us to do both.

 

I agree 100%--the two big questions (as you mentioned above) is: "who gets the grace?" and "what does it do to the human?"

 

Just wanted to show you what I truly meant. No biggie...

Alleluia, an accord...:thumbsup:

God changes man's will by regenerating them; He regenerates via a new heart. This new heart, new will brings forth faith and repentance. Not everyone will God regenerate, however. Some are left(rightfully) to their own devices...

 

Yeah, really--a rare thing on message boards nowadays it would seem. :godisgood:

And here's where I think the main disagreement lies--whether God's necessary prevenient grace is or is not the same thing as "regeneration" per se. I would suggest that it is not the same (and I'm sure we could have long discussion about this on the "Calvinism/Arminianism" board), but I suspect that here we'll agree to disagree.

My purpose in contributing to this particular thread was merely to point out that there is a distinction between the objective Atonement and the subjective application/appropriate of the same--and this is a distinction that it seems that most Calvinists and Arminians would agree truly exists. Since there is such a distinction set forth in Scripture, then the implication is that the Atonement doesn't automatically (apart from faith and repentance) save anyone, but must be received by the sinner through faith in Christ. If this is acknowledged, then Owen's "trilemma" does not rule out that Christ's sacrifice was objectively made for the sins of all men provisionally, as Calvinists and Arminians would assert that no one is actually saved from their sins until they are IN CHRIST.

(Now of course, folks can then proceed to look at the relevant passages regarding the extent of the atonement, and debate the ordo salutis and whether or not grace is resistible, but there's a whole subforum for that already, and I for one need to go spend some time with the youngins)

 

If somebody characterized Calvinists as such, I bet you'd be offended.