Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?

[robustheologian]

If Christ atoned for the sins of every man, then He reconciled them back to Himself.

Right. There's really only two choices from that point. Universalism (which is unbiblical) and Calvinism (which is biblical).

 

[convicted1]

Right. There's really only two choices from that point. Universalism (which is unbiblical) and Calvinism (which is biblical).

 

[Robert William]

The people who believe in Predestination theology do not know or often forget that there are several things which Almighty God cannot do.

God cannot coerce the people to believe, because that is against His Attributes. That's why He didn't prevent the Fall of Adam and Eve.
God didn't create the human beings as puppet or robots but is in the process of creating us as gods ( Joh 10:35)

God cannot forgive any man without punishing the sins of the person.

That's why He had to impute human sins to Jesus Christ, and Jesus was punished for our sins. His Blood atoned for All human race.

Whose sins were left unatoned at the Cross?

Abraham believed God, then God regarded his faith as his righteousness. ( Romans 4:3, 9), which I terms as his credit.

Was Adolf Hitler predestined to kill the Jews by you God?

Then your God is wicked!


My God didn't predestine Hitler to kill the Jews but to believe in Jesus and do good to the Jews. He just foreknew Hitler would do so, then prepared the Hell for such people.

Almighty God have some things that He cannot do, not because of his capacity but because they contradict His attributes.
Calvinists ignore this truth.

Did God predestine 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus and then ask the people to believe in Jesus, then punish them to go to the Hell since He predestined them not to believe in Jesus, though He could predestine them all to believe in Jesus only if He wanted to?


According to them, human effort to preach the Gospel to the people who were not predestined to believe in Him is against His Will and rebellion to God.

Calvinsits must study hard to find out the lists of the people who have been predestined to believe in Jesus before they preach the Gospel.


Predestination Theory is a blasphemy to God as John Wesley said, I believe.


Eliyahu

How about this one, God caused two bears to slaughter 42 little children for calling His prophet baldy. Did those little children choose that?

2Ki 2:22 So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2Ki 2:25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

And what about the thousands of babies God burned alive with sulfur???? Do you think it's ok for humans to burn babies to death? YHWH does what He wants.

And what about the thousands of babies God drowned in the flood???? Do you think it's ok for humans to drown babies to death? YHWH does what He wants.

Are you starting to get the picture? God is not like us, He does what He wants and is not to be questioned.

 

[Robert William]

The people who believe in Predestination theology do not know or often forget that there are several things which Almighty God cannot do.

God cannot coerce the people to believe, because that is against His Attributes. That's why He didn't prevent the Fall of Adam and Eve.
God didn't create the human beings as puppet or robots but is in the process of creating us as gods ( Joh 10:35)

God cannot forgive any man without punishing the sins of the person.

That's why He had to impute human sins to Jesus Christ, and Jesus was punished for our sins. His Blood atoned for All human race.

Whose sins were left unatoned at the Cross?

Abraham believed God, then God regarded his faith as his righteousness. ( Romans 4:3, 9), which I terms as his credit.

Was Adolf Hitler predestined to kill the Jews by you God?

Then your God is wicked!


My God didn't predestine Hitler to kill the Jews but to believe in Jesus and do good to the Jews. He just foreknew Hitler would do so, then prepared the Hell for such people.

Almighty God have some things that He cannot do, not because of his capacity but because they contradict His attributes.
Calvinists ignore this truth.

Did God predestine 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus and then ask the people to believe in Jesus, then punish them to go to the Hell since He predestined them not to believe in Jesus, though He could predestine them all to believe in Jesus only if He wanted to?


According to them, human effort to preach the Gospel to the people who were not predestined to believe in Him is against His Will and rebellion to God.

Calvinsits must study hard to find out the lists of the people who have been predestined to believe in Jesus before they preach the Gospel.


Predestination Theory is a blasphemy to God as John Wesley said, I believe.


Eliyahu

If God does not coerce or go against a dead mans nature or his so called free will, it's over, he is cooked.

All that writing and you did not answer brother Joseph's questions. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2205118&postcount=279

 

[Eliyahu]

Hitler killed the Jews in accordance to God's plan of redemption, imo. Read throughout the OT how God caused affliction to come upon the Jews due to their continual rebellion. They rejected Christ then and still are and judgements have come upon them for it.

If Christ atoned for the sins of every man, then He reconciled them back to Himself. That makes for a very weak atonement/reconciliation, seeing that many go to hell. Additionally, you have a cruel God who punished His Son, and then punished the unbelievers in hell, making it a double payment for their sins.


That's a blasphemous doctrine....

According to your theory, Hitler obeyed the will of God.

Then why should he go to the Hell?

He must receive the Crown of Obedience.

Don't misunderstand the Foreknowledge of God as the indefinite human will.

God foreknew about the human wills, human disasters, etc. then He react acording to the reaction of the human beings.

In that, eventually God-man cooperate each other as they react each other.

God didn't cause the cruelty to His Son, but He knew that human race would do the cruelty to the Righteous, then He placed His Son right there in order to save the whole race of Adams.

Then all the sins of the world were atoned at the Cross.

No single sin was left unatoned at the Cross.

God is not cruel in sending the billions of unbelievers because they have chosen the rejection of the Truth that Jesus died for their sins atoning their sins at the Cross. They go to the Hell not because they committed a lot of sins but because they didn't believe ( John 16:9).


Eliyahu

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
the Bible statements on Atonement - includes the "Day of Atonement" that God describes in Lev 16 - where we find the work of CHRIST - both in the "Lamb of God" (The "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16) and also the work of Christ as High Priest (also affirmed by Paul in Heb 8:1).

BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.

So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV

Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.

But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.

Think man think, how could a person end up in Hell if all of his sins have been atoned for????:BangHead:

I would never argue that anyone in hell has received atonement for sins.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

Pharoah's heart was not hardened in terms of if he had faith to believe the gospel, but rather on his decision on if he should listen to Aaron and Moses to free the Israelites. Scripture says, "13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. (Exodus 7:13-14)

If however you adhere to gospel regeneration, and take the view that this scripture is dealing believing the gospel, and also believe Pharaohs' heart was hardened by God himself (as the scripture states), you then encounter a problem of God preventing an unbeliever from believing the gospel by hardening his heart directly! This scripture teaches us of the sovereignty of God in all things, but there is nothing in the context that indicates to the reader that the subject is the new birth or an unregenerate having the ability to have faith to believe the gospel or being spiritually alive prior to regeneration, thus your implication that Pharaoh was not spiritually dead is not proven.

Finally, if you do not believe unregenerated souls are dead in sin prior to being born again, what state do you believe scripture teaches they are in prior to becoming born again and what changes at the moment of becoming born again?

My point is that even the wicked are not dead - and their hearts can be hardened. You cannot harden the heart of a dead man.

My point is not that Pharaoh was a saved saint that hardened his heart against the Will of God - rather he was a lost person that hardened his heart showing that the bogus argument that the dead cannot do anything is misapplied to the lost - they can harden their hearts against God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

How about this one, God caused two bears to slaughter 42 little children for calling His prophet baldy. Did those little children choose that?

2Ki 2:22 So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
2Ki 2:25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

And what about the thousands of babies God burned alive with sulfur???? Do you think it's ok for humans to burn babies to death? YHWH does what He wants.

And what about the thousands of babies God drowned in the flood???? Do you think it's ok for humans to drown babies to death? YHWH does what He wants.

Are you starting to get the picture? God is not like us, He does what He wants and is not to be questioned.

You don't consider that there is a certain Limit to what God can do, because of His Own Attributes, not by others.

God cannot cheat, God cannot contradict Himself, God cannot coerce the people because they are not robots. God cannot forgive sinners without punishing their sins.

God could foresee the human disasters, but didn't help or rescue them, because there might have been certain reasons which we do not know.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that God doesn't do anything, the Will of God works too in reaction to the human behaviors or environment.

If the children didn't mock Elisha the Man of God, they wouldn't have been killed.

Here is the providence of God.

God-Man cooperate or conflict each other.

Eliyahu

 

[BobRyan]

the Bible statements on Atonement - includes the "Day of Atonement" that God describes in Lev 16 - where we find the work of CHRIST - both in the "Lamb of God" (The "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16) and also the work of Christ as High Priest (also affirmed by Paul in Heb 8:1).

BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.

So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV

Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.

But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.

The words "whole world" in scripture do not always mean every human being who ever lived as you infer above. Paul wrote in Romans 1:18, "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.", Do you honestly believe that the faith of the believers at the church of Rome in Christ was known at Paul's time by every single person who ever lived in history?

The words "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means there will be born again believers in every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue (thus it can be said the "whole world"). Revelation 7:9 states, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;". This definition of "whole world" is more in line with what scripture actually teaches, rather than the belief that "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every single human being in history.

"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.
Not "The savior throughout the world".

"HE is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins (Christians) and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

NOT "For sins in different places throughout the world"

Calvinism requires more scripture "bending" than Arminians are willing to swallow.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

<<<Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?>>>

If He did and scarcely any or just many get saved, his atonement was a complete failure or He saves some regardless its effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness.

 

[Eliyahu]

Whose sins were not atoned at the Cross?

Has anyone answered on this?

Eliyahu

 

[Robert William]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
the Bible statements on Atonement - includes the "Day of Atonement" that God describes in Lev 16 - where we find the work of CHRIST - both in the "Lamb of God" (The "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16) and also the work of Christ as High Priest (also affirmed by Paul in Heb 8:1).

BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.

So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV

Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.

But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.




I would never argue that anyone in hell has received atonement for sins.

in Christ,

Bob

Make up your mind, now you are saying Christ did not atone for all humans!!!!

 

[Robert William]

Whose sins were not atoned at the Cross?

Has anyone answered on this?

Eliyahu

All the goats, only the predestined sheep were atoned for. Think man, if Jesus atoned for all humans why would He say "I don't pray for the world"?

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[DHK]

Please start another thread if you so desire.
This one has exceeded its limit.