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Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?
- Thread starter Robert William
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Thank you:thumbsup:
Wait for it..the we aren't really dead arguement:tonofbricks:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. The "old what"??
2. Nicodemus comes to Christ - before the cross not after it.
3. Gal 6:-9 there has only been ONE Gospel and that Gospel "Was preached to Abraham".
In both OT and NT - the Gospel works the same way - saved by grace through faith.
4. No doubt the Arminian position freely admits to the Rom 3:9-11 state of the sinful nature - but God "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32 - supernaturally - and even Calvinists admit that the DRAWING of God ENABLES all the "choice" that depravity disables.
Still you are straying from the Atonement question.
I point to it directly in my post above.
In Christ,
Bob
Think man, if as you say all humans sins have been Atoned for, then how could anybody end up in Hell? Your teaching is illogical.:BangHead:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You can't harden the heart of a dead man.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
that is true - so your definition is not the Bible definition for Atonement.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
the Bible statements on Atonement - includes the "Day of Atonement" that God describes in Lev 16 - where we find the work of CHRIST - both in the "Lamb of God" (The "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16) and also the work of Christ as High Priest (also affirmed by Paul in Heb 8:1).
BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.
So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV
Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.
But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.
BOTH of Christ's works for us -- as sin offering AND as High Priest - are included in the Bible concept of Atonement.
So that as the NIV said in 1John 2:2 - on the cross Christ completed the "Atoning Sacrifice" the blood sacrifice - that provides payment for sin "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - 1John 2:2 NIV
Which is the Arminian POV affirmed in the Bible.
But the WHOLE WORLD is not saved because each person must personally embrace Christ and benefit from His work as our High Priest as we find in Heb 8, 9 and 10 - or they do not benefit from that completed "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross.
No, Calvinism teaches that the drawing is ONLY for the predestined elect.
How do you define "dead"?
God said to Adam:
"In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely DIE."
Adam ate, and Adam died. Then he died again, physically, 930 years later.
So how did Adam die. He continued to carry on a conversation with God (even audibly) for some time after that. How does a dead man carry on a conversation with God?
Think man think, how could a person end up in Hell if all of his sins have been atoned for????:BangHead:
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Bob,
Pharoah's heart was not hardened in terms of if he had faith to believe the gospel, but rather on his decision on if he should listen to Aaron and Moses to free the Israelites. Scripture says, "13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. (Exodus 7:13-14)
If however you adhere to gospel regeneration, and take the view that this scripture is dealing believing the gospel, and also believe Pharaohs' heart was hardened by God himself (as the scripture states), you then encounter a problem of God preventing an unbeliever from believing the gospel by hardening his heart directly! This scripture teaches us of the sovereignty of God in all things, but there is nothing in the context that indicates to the reader that the subject is the new birth or an unregenerate having the ability to have faith to believe the gospel or being spiritually alive prior to regeneration, thus your implication that Pharaoh was not spiritually dead is not proven.
Finally, if you do not believe unregenerated souls are dead in sin prior to being born again, what state do you believe scripture teaches they are in prior to becoming born again and what changes at the moment of becoming born again?
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BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
The words "whole world" in scripture do not always mean every human being who ever lived as you infer above. Paul wrote in Romans 1:18, "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.", Do you honestly believe that the faith of the believers at the church of Rome in Christ was known at Paul's time by every single person who ever lived in history?
The words "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means there will be born again believers in every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue (thus it can be said the "whole world"). Revelation 7:9 states, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;". This definition of "whole world" is more in line with what scripture actually teaches, rather than the belief that "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every single human being in history.
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Satan speaks with God.
God caused Balaam to open his mouth. We know that to be a supernatural miracle, a miracle that doesn't happen today.
But Cain was spiritually dead, and remained so. At no time in his life was he ever "regenerated" if one were to use that word, or "saved." And yet God spoke to this dead man, even as he spoke to Adam when he was "dead."
According to Calvinism this is impossible. This cannot take place. This defeats Calvinism, especially the example that you brought up concerning Cain for he remained in his unregenerate state.
The people who believe in Predestination theology do not know or often forget that there are several things which Almighty God cannot do.
God cannot coerce the people to believe, because that is against His Attributes. That's why He didn't prevent the Fall of Adam and Eve.
God didn't create the human beings as puppet or robots but is in the process of creating us as gods ( Joh 10:35)
God cannot forgive any man without punishing the sins of the person.
That's why He had to impute human sins to Jesus Christ, and Jesus was punished for our sins. His Blood atoned for All human race.
Whose sins were left unatoned at the Cross?
Abraham believed God, then God regarded his faith as his righteousness. ( Romans 4:3, 9), which I terms as his credit.
Was Adolf Hitler predestined to kill the Jews by you God?
Then your God is wicked!
My God didn't predestine Hitler to kill the Jews but to believe in Jesus and do good to the Jews. He just foreknew Hitler would do so, then prepared the Hell for such people.
Almighty God have some things that He cannot do, not because of his capacity but because they contradict His attributes.
Calvinists ignore this truth.
Did God predestine 99% of the people not to believe in Jesus and then ask the people to believe in Jesus, then punish them to go to the Hell since He predestined them not to believe in Jesus, though He could predestine them all to believe in Jesus only if He wanted to?
According to them, human effort to preach the Gospel to the people who were not predestined to believe in Him is against His Will and rebellion to God.
Calvinsits must study hard to find out the lists of the people who have been predestined to believe in Jesus before they preach the Gospel.
Predestination Theory is a blasphemy to God as John Wesley said, I believe.
Eliyahu
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convicted1
Guest
Not because their sins were not atoned, but because they rejected the truth that even their own sins were atoned already at the Cross!
If the unbelievers sins were not atoned at the Cross, can God charge them about the sins of unbelief?
They couldn't believe in Jesus because their sins were not atoned at the Cross. Is this truth?
Nevertheless, can God still ask their sins of unbelief?
Whose sins were left unatoned at the Cross?
None!
My Lord Jesus left no sin unatoned at the Cross!
Eliyahu
convicted1
Guest
Hitler killed the Jews in accordance to God's plan of redemption, imo. Read throughout the OT how God caused affliction to come upon the Jews due to their continual rebellion. They rejected Christ then and still are and judgements have come upon them for it.
If Christ atoned for the sins of every man, then He reconciled them back to Himself. That makes for a very weak atonement/reconciliation, seeing that many go to hell. Additionally, you have a cruel God who punished His Son, and then punished the unbelievers in hell, making it a double payment for their sins.
That's a blasphemous doctrine....
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