ALL the terms, pelagianism semi pelagianism arminianism synergism etc... are all basically the same, they are just dressed up in different garb and are all to protect their free will idol.
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Did Christ Atone for ALL humans?
- Thread starter Robert William
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ALL the terms, pelagianism semi pelagianism arminianism synergism etc... are all basically the same, they are just dressed up in different garb and are all to protect their free will idol.
PreachTony
Active Member
This sounds an awful lot like another BB member who ardently claimed that faith was a work of the law that ought to be done. That was a fun discussion.
Not arguing with you, as the Bible says we are saved by Grace through Faith. However, from the human perspective, the best we can do is faith alone. Man cannot impart grace to man. God has to impart grace, which no one would argue with. All any man can do is have faith. So, from my perspective, all I can offer if faith.
Back in post #18 I listed a lot of scriptures that show man having a choice. By the by, I would not lump all non-Cals into the Pelagian camp. Some of us do not hold to Pelagianism. We do believe man has a will and ability to choose, but we also believe man is accountable under the concept of original sin.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
You only continue to demonstrate your appalling ignorance and lack of reasonableness with ridiculous statements such as this. :BangHead:
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Howdy Thomas, First of all, YHWH is under no obligation to save anybody, neither does anybody deserve the love of God.
In the contex of salvation grace is unmerited favor, and the ones who He favors will inherit the Kingdom, and the ones He doesn't favor will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Simple
And it is so predictable how you continue to argue against points I've never made. :BangHead:
How to Study the Atonement
By Dr. Robert Morey
Category: Christian Life, Theology
This article is an excerpt of Studies in the Atonement
I. The doctrine of the atonement is exclusively a subject of special revelation and thus we are entirely dependent upon the Scriptures.
Christianity is unique and singular in its concept of the atonement. We will search history in vain to find another religion which developed the concept of God becoming man to die as the sinner’s substitute. False religion always views man as seeking God and providing for his own salvation while Christianity views God as seeking man and providing salvation for him. The Scriptures view men as guilty rebellious sinners who are running from God as fast as they can (Rom.*1:18).
Thus we cannot look to man’s reason, feelings or experiences to tell us the truth about salvation. We will trust only in the infallible Written Word of God for “all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2*Tim.*3:16). “To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to the word it is because there is no light in them” (Isa.*8:20).
II. Approach the doctrine of the atonement as the solution to your problems and not as the problem itself.
The saving work of Christ is God’s answer to man’s greatest questions. How can a man be just before God? How can sins be forgiven? How can spiritually dead sinners be made alive? How can we escape the just punishment of eternal perdition? Who takes the initiative in salvation? Is salvation all of God or does it involve the works of man? The answers to such questions are found in the Biblical doctrine of the atonement.
Perhaps a word could be said here to theological students. Beware of being “problem-centered.” Too often theological studies are designed to give as many problems to the student as possible. He is taught “the problem of the existence of God,” “the problem of the inspiration and text of the Bible,” “the problem of preaching,” “the problem of evil,” etc. It is apparent that some seminary and Bible college professors are excellent in presenting problems but weak in giving solutions! This results in weak, undecided ministers who can’t say anything dogmatically to their people. The people in turn are not doctrinally strong and are soon “tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” (Eph.*4:14).
Don’t be sold short in your theological education by being problem centered. Seek the Biblical solution to each issue. Study until you are convinced that you know what the Word of God teaches. Then preach and teach it with the boldness of the Holy Spirit. Never rest until you have an answer to your questions.
III. Approach the doctrine of the atonement in an experimental manner.
We must not be content with a mere intellectual grasp of the atonement. If our study of this precious truth of God’s Word does not spiritually profit us in terms of salvation or sanctification, we have missed the underlying purpose of the study. We are dealing with the suffering and death of the Son of God. We should visualize afresh the bleeding sacrifice made on our behalf.
The test of our understanding is to measure our love to Christ. Experimentally we should grow in our devotion and love to Christ as a result of this study.
IV. To see the true nature of sin, look to the cross of Christ.
To see sin as it really is, contemplate what it cost to remove it. If we had fallen into a deep pit, we could tell how deep we had fallen by the length of the rope let down to save us. In the same way, we can only understand the depths of depravity into which sin has brought us by the lengths to which God must go to redeem us.
God Himself had to die a bloody death at the hands of wicked sinners. To see the awful suffering and to hear the awful cry, “My God, my God, why have Thou forsaken Me?” reveals how awful sin must be in the sight of God. Don’t look at sin to see sin’s true nature. Look at what it did to Christ on the cross. Experimentally, we should grow in our hatred of sin as a result of the study.
Ye who think of sin but lightly,
Nor suppose the evil great
Here may view its nature rightly,
Here its guilt may estimate.
Mark the sacrifice appointed
See who bears the awful loss;
Tis the Word, the Lord’s anointed,
Son of Man and Son of God.*
V. Take the simple step of faith with each new understanding of the atonement.
True Biblical faith involves assent and trust as well as knowledge. It is not enough to know about the atonement, you must assent to and trust in the saving work of Christ. A new or deepened understanding of every aspect of the atonement should be followed by the affirmation of the heart, “Lord, I believe.” The doctrine of the atonement should provide much fuel for praise and many arguments to be used in prayer. Seek to appropriate and to use your Biblical knowledge in your life everyday.
By Dr. Robert Morey
Category: Christian Life, Theology
This article is an excerpt of Studies in the Atonement
I. The doctrine of the atonement is exclusively a subject of special revelation and thus we are entirely dependent upon the Scriptures.
Christianity is unique and singular in its concept of the atonement. We will search history in vain to find another religion which developed the concept of God becoming man to die as the sinner’s substitute. False religion always views man as seeking God and providing for his own salvation while Christianity views God as seeking man and providing salvation for him. The Scriptures view men as guilty rebellious sinners who are running from God as fast as they can (Rom.*1:18).
Thus we cannot look to man’s reason, feelings or experiences to tell us the truth about salvation. We will trust only in the infallible Written Word of God for “all Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2*Tim.*3:16). “To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to the word it is because there is no light in them” (Isa.*8:20).
II. Approach the doctrine of the atonement as the solution to your problems and not as the problem itself.
The saving work of Christ is God’s answer to man’s greatest questions. How can a man be just before God? How can sins be forgiven? How can spiritually dead sinners be made alive? How can we escape the just punishment of eternal perdition? Who takes the initiative in salvation? Is salvation all of God or does it involve the works of man? The answers to such questions are found in the Biblical doctrine of the atonement.
Perhaps a word could be said here to theological students. Beware of being “problem-centered.” Too often theological studies are designed to give as many problems to the student as possible. He is taught “the problem of the existence of God,” “the problem of the inspiration and text of the Bible,” “the problem of preaching,” “the problem of evil,” etc. It is apparent that some seminary and Bible college professors are excellent in presenting problems but weak in giving solutions! This results in weak, undecided ministers who can’t say anything dogmatically to their people. The people in turn are not doctrinally strong and are soon “tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” (Eph.*4:14).
Don’t be sold short in your theological education by being problem centered. Seek the Biblical solution to each issue. Study until you are convinced that you know what the Word of God teaches. Then preach and teach it with the boldness of the Holy Spirit. Never rest until you have an answer to your questions.
III. Approach the doctrine of the atonement in an experimental manner.
We must not be content with a mere intellectual grasp of the atonement. If our study of this precious truth of God’s Word does not spiritually profit us in terms of salvation or sanctification, we have missed the underlying purpose of the study. We are dealing with the suffering and death of the Son of God. We should visualize afresh the bleeding sacrifice made on our behalf.
The test of our understanding is to measure our love to Christ. Experimentally we should grow in our devotion and love to Christ as a result of this study.
IV. To see the true nature of sin, look to the cross of Christ.
To see sin as it really is, contemplate what it cost to remove it. If we had fallen into a deep pit, we could tell how deep we had fallen by the length of the rope let down to save us. In the same way, we can only understand the depths of depravity into which sin has brought us by the lengths to which God must go to redeem us.
God Himself had to die a bloody death at the hands of wicked sinners. To see the awful suffering and to hear the awful cry, “My God, my God, why have Thou forsaken Me?” reveals how awful sin must be in the sight of God. Don’t look at sin to see sin’s true nature. Look at what it did to Christ on the cross. Experimentally, we should grow in our hatred of sin as a result of the study.
Ye who think of sin but lightly,
Nor suppose the evil great
Here may view its nature rightly,
Here its guilt may estimate.
Mark the sacrifice appointed
See who bears the awful loss;
Tis the Word, the Lord’s anointed,
Son of Man and Son of God.*
V. Take the simple step of faith with each new understanding of the atonement.
True Biblical faith involves assent and trust as well as knowledge. It is not enough to know about the atonement, you must assent to and trust in the saving work of Christ. A new or deepened understanding of every aspect of the atonement should be followed by the affirmation of the heart, “Lord, I believe.” The doctrine of the atonement should provide much fuel for praise and many arguments to be used in prayer. Seek to appropriate and to use your Biblical knowledge in your life everyday.
1Co 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. :BangHead:
PreachTony
Active Member
And it is so predictable how you continue to argue against points I've never made. :BangHead:Howdy Thomas, First of all, YHWH is under no obligation to save anybody, neither does anybody deserve the love of God.
In the contex(sic) of salvation grace is unmerited favor, and the ones who He favors will inherit the Kingdom, and the ones He doesn't favor will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Simple
RW, your post seems to even discount the effects of sin, basically making salvation nothing more than God picking and choosing which parts of His creation to bless and which parts to send into eternal damnation.
RIGHT! It's called Sovereign election! The reason why you are having difficulty with it, is because you start with a false premise thinking that God is obligated to save anybody, or that man deserves something, or that he deserves the love of God.
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Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Demonstrate that you can speak the truth, and then I'll rejoice. :smilewinkgrin:
convicted1
Guest
I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I'd like to chime in....ding!!
You can read throughout the bible about two 'sets' of people. They're referred to as wheat and tares, sheep and goats, seed of the woman and seed of the devil, &c. Now, it appears some on here one has to do something to be one or t'other. Such as one becomes a sinner after they knowingly sin, thereby becoming a goat after first being a sheep. Then when one chooses Christ they become a sheep. Not so in either case. One is either/or from the foundation of the world and not after they do something...
PreachTony
Active Member
So when the Bible said God is no respecter of persons, what it should have said is "except when He's picking and choosing who to bless and who to damn," right?
I don't believe God is obligated to save anyone. I believe in His mercy and grace He offers salvation to us. The God you are purporting, RW, is not the same one I see revealed in Jesus Christ in the NT. Did Christ refuse to heal someone simply because He chose not to? I don't see that.
convicted1
Guest
This is in regards to their rewards. God gives to every man their rewards according to the deeds done in their bodies.
Salvation is an offer, but a gift. An offer can be refused, but God's callings and gifts are w/o repentance...iow, they can't turn them away...
When scripture teaches us that God is no respecter of persons it means His choice has nothing to do with color or nationality or whether a person is rich or poor or anything.
PreachTony
Active Member
So babies (whom God Himself calls innocent [Jer 19:4], not knowing right from wrong [Deut 1:39]) are either sheep or goats from the foundation? A baby that dies (that God has called innocent, or that God has called My child [Eze 16:21]) is held to the standard of Election from the foundation and thereby, even in a state in which no law can be imputed on them for lack of understanding, can still be damned to Hell and the Lake of Fire?
All those scriptures where Jesus invites man to come, to take freely of the water of life, to open the door, all of those are just flowery, put-on language because man cannot possibly do any of that if he is born as a goat and therefore pre-damned? If this is true then why did Jesus issue the Great Commission? If people are sheep or goats from the foundation of the world and nothing can change that then why bother preaching? Why do preachers put themselves through such stress and grief if God has already decided the eternal destination for all humanity?
convicted1
Guest
PreachTony
Active Member
We could argue this one all day long. Babies are under the curse imposed by the original sin of Adam. We are all under original sin. But, as I noted, God in His word calls them innocent. So which is it?
If God is calling them His children, and innocent, and not knowing right from wrong, then I would side with God on that one.
PreachTony
Active Member
If you believe in Irresistible Grace, then yeah, I can see that. I don't believe in Irresistible Grace (especially in the Cal sense of the term, as you well know). I believe God can be resisted. Otherwise we would not have a warning in the scriptures to quench not the Spirit. If God is irresistible, then why would we be told to try the spirit, to see if it be of God.? If it is of God, then we shouldn't even be able to try it, we should just go with it.
Salvation has nothing to do with works.
A person who's nature or who is born from above is seen by God as pure perfect and Holy, because Christ paid for that persons sins, past present and future.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
PreachTony
Active Member
That definitely sounds like SBM's terminology.
convicted1
Guest
What brought the curse upon us all?
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