Featured Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

Notice that on this thread #1 IT was pointed out that in Dan 7 we find this --

The judgment in Dan 7 completes and THEN the saints are freed from persecution and the 2nd coming occurs.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Your name-calling is still at high volume - but Bible study on that point in your post is lacking.

I think this thread #1 makes the Bible case you are avoiding.

Anyone can resort to name calling.

I think the signature line below illustrates that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Interesting. Not sure I would consider the first to be conclusive of God's involvement and the second cannot be said to be fulfilled. Just because there are ecumenical movements that does mean the rift between Catholics and Protestants has been repaired. Can't even get Protestants to agree, lol.

I meant a more doctrinal perspective. Something generally debated as unbiblical.

Sorry to see HP gone. Enjoyed debating with him. Thought you two were tight and he may have confided in you his disappearance. Pretty sure he wasn't raptured.



God bless.

 

Here is what I said regarding the SDA post that was made:

Who did I call names. I didn't mention anyone. I declared that was written was heresy, and it is.
You are the one making false accusations here.
Held up against the truth of the Word of God, the post I quoted is full of heresy. I stand by that. There is no name-calling involved. In light of that, if you wish to discuss the heresy of the post I am more than willing to.

 

Same reason you are a pre-trib-dispensationalist I guess!

 

What would a Catholic know about it? Just curious.


God bless.

 

What you have written is heresy -- and it is.

see? that was pretty easy to "say".


You are the one making false accusations here.
Held up against the truth of the Word of God, the post I quoted from you is full of heresy. I stand by that. There is no name-calling involved. In light of that, if you wish to discuss the heresy of the post I am more than willing to.

I prefer actual facts -- name calling, flame posting, et al is far too easy ... anyone can do it.

Let's have "substance instead".

in Christ,

bob

 

Then why dismiss the doctrinal option I gave. Pick one from the 28 or pick one from my list below - then we will find a statement from Ellen White to test. Recall that the Bible does not say that a prophet must have infinite knowledge - rather the test is that when they claim that something is from God - well then that "something" cannot be doctrinal error. We will find a place where Ellen White makes some statement about the doctrine that you pick - as having been commented on in some affirming way by Christ in vision or an Angel in a dream or vision given to her. Then we can look at it to see if what has been claimed as a statement from God on that subject contradicts the Bible.


The 28 Fundamental Beliefs are online http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

. I think the "distinctive" ones are ...

1. Investigative Judgment, Sanctuary in Heaven etc.
2. Premill-post-trib rapture where the saints are taken to heaven.

A little less distinctive but still pretty well associated with SDAs would be.

1. Mortal man -- not immortal man. No praying to the dead
2. Sabbath - 7th day not the first day - still part of moral law of God
3. Continuatioin of Spiritual Gifts - including the gift of prophecy.
4. Keeping to the Bible definition of clean vs unclean food in Lev 11.

To a much less degree of uniqueness

1. Arminian - so no OSAS.
2. Entire Bible is the Word of God and to be used for doctrine - not just 27 books, or downsized to 23 books et.
3. Creation week - literal 7 days, about 6000 years ago.

 

I guess you meant the links. If I wanted to research SDA doctrine no need to ask you, right?

If you would rather not present prophecies that are doctrinal, okay.

What you list here cannot be attributed to a latter day prophetess, they are issues embraced and debated prior to any prophecies she may be credited with.

Perhaps I was not clear in my request, so I'll change the question: are there prophecies declared heretical that are normally objected to. For example, I am pretty by lagoonal and I could point out the objection that is commonly raised, that this doctrine was never held before the 18th century.

That was the request.


God bless.

 

Darby claimed "new revelation". Is that Christian?

 

And only you seem to be interested in Darby's claims.

Doesn't change the fact Paul taught the catching away in the First Century.

Will you study my doctrine as faithfully as you do Darby's if I claim that I have new revelation? I do. New to you my friend, but still first century teaching.

:thumbsup:


God bless.

 

Here is what I posted from your original post:

The SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment is absolute heresy. It negates the atonement of Christ, that Christ already satisfied God the Father making a propitiation for the sins of the world (1John 2:2), but states the atonement is going on even now in Heaven. Ergo--heresy.

"the dead who are asleep in Christ" is a reference to the SDA doctrine of soul sleep, correct? That is another heresy that the SDA promotes.

"keeping the commandments of Jesus" teaches a works salvation or at the very least a denial of eternal security. One has to maintain their salvation through works. Heresy.

"This judgment" There is no such judgment. It is fictitious. It is not supported in scripture. It is a Ellen G. White invention. Heresy.

"The completion of this ministry" What ministry? The made-ministry of Ellen G. White. You have provided nothing but the imagination of Ellen G. White.

 

This is a hateful hypocritical lie.
Prove it.

 

Interesting. I didn't know SDA embraced soul sleep.

Bob, do you have prophecy related to that?

(Hope you don't mind me leapfrogging your post DHK)

God bless.

 

Hello brother DHK, perhaps I may interject with some historical Baptist, materials?

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England. As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] http://books.google.com/books?id=EIEPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658), Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - http://books.google.com/books?id=W2NlnJippEkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Others, who historically taught what the Reformation [and Scripture] taught:

Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's neo-platonic teleological paganistic teachings:

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_immortality
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_death
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep

 

Quotations:

“William Tyndale (1484-1536),, English Bible translator and Martyr

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - http://books.google.com/books?id=TOLOU6-00yUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180 ​

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [Thomas More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118 ​

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118 ​

John Frith (1503-33), associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester ​

Martin Luther (1493-1546); German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344 ​

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.​

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288 ​

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760 ​

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_state​

“As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism​

George Wishart (1500-1546), Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.​

 

John Milton (1608-1674), "Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - http://books.google.com/books?id=WwZbAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.
2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.
3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.
4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.
5. It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.
6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.
7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.
8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.
9. It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.
10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.
11. It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.
12. It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm​

And many, many more...

 

The investigative judgment is something invented by Ellen White to rescue the Adventist movement from the failed predictions of William Miller. I hate to sound harsh because I like Bob, but what I said is a fact.