Featured Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

So you and SDA really believe that God really will judge people based on what day of the week they worship Him? To me, that is incredible and against the freedom we have in Jesus Christ.

 

Do you agree that it was formulated, seized upon, "discovered", or however you want to put it, in order to save the Adventist movement?

 

Where we have two other men: Joshua and Zerubbabel.

The two trees are defined:


Zechariah 4

King James Version (KJV)


3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Hardly think we can accuse this of being the Old Testament, but rather God's ministry through Zerubabbel.

Just as His ministry is through the Two Witnesses in Revelation.

I take the view that the Two Olive Trees represent the Offices of King and High Priest, and though Zerubbabel is not a King, he is descended from Kings and of the lineage of Christ.


Consider:


Haggai 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,

2 Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not come, the time that the Lord's house should be built.

3 Then came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying,

4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie waste?


14 And the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of the Lord of hosts, their God,


Haggai 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,

2 Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying,

3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do ye see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?

4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the Lord; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the Lord, and work: for I am with you, saith the Lord of hosts:

5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

6 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.


Hebrews 12:26-28

King James Version (KJV)

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:



You might wonder at the lack of mention of Joshua in ch.4, but back up and see him standing before the Lord:


Zechariah 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


But the primary reason we cannot view the Two Witnesses of Revelation as the "Two Testaments" are the simple reason that (1) there was only One Testament in that day, and (2) the context will not allow it.

I have given a list of several questions somewhere, have you addressed those? Let me know if you have, I have a little busy so may have missed your response.

In Revelation 11 we see a description of two men prophesying for forty two months (which cannot be converted to 1260 years), dying and then being resurrected then raptured.

This is clearly the mid-point of the Tribulation because they die within the Second Woe.

But I think we are covering ground already traveled, aren't we?


Continued...

 

But not in your interpretation, in which you have the Word of God needing to be resurrected after dying.

And Scripture does not indicate that the Word of God is anything but eternal.

Even in the days of Christ the people were told...


Matthew 23:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


And I would point out that in this day there was only one Testament.

Kind of hard to make the Two Olive Trees of Zechariah 4 the Old and New Testaments.

The Offices of High Priest and King, established in the first half of the Tribulation which will end and culminate in the One these two offices will be combined in, Christ our Lord, Both Priest and King.

There are no two Testaments in the Day of Zechariah.

I agree with this part of your post.

No thanks, got the Bible.

I try to stay away from commentary any more, it usually confuses things which the Word of God makes clear.

And this is a traditional Catholic Practice...to paint pictures instead of expounding Scripture, lol.

It is nothing more than spiritualization of the texts involved. Satan is reduced to a force of evil rather than a valid entity who speaks, walks, and wreaks havoc. Can't be real, because he is described as a dragon, and a talking serpent.

And I would say that there are more renowned scholars we can trust in, Paul probably heading the list among men. John running a close second.

Peter, well...I'll move on.

Why quote him at all?

Neither one of you are going to accept any point made with the quote, are you?

How about "Evangelical Protestants?"

What we might see as the "best scholarship" would certainly be up for debate.

I know, and I do.

Catholicism is the root source of quite a few problems in the Body today, Protestants being one of the results of their traditional methods of interpretation.

It isn't?

Can't say about SDA because I don't make it a practice to study Theology Systems. I prefer to go to the source of Christianity only.

In regards to the similarities between Catholics and many Protestants there is no denying those similarities, and when you can show me the Pre-Millennial Catholic I would love to talk to that guy.

God bless.

 

A reasonable point indeed. Remember that this is a prediction about future events based on what the Bible presently says about the significance of God's Commandments. (Also recall that we ourselves were Sunday keeping Adventists -- until this subject was pointed out to us by groups such as the Seventh-day Baptists and we had to sit down and take a hard serious look at whether the Bible Sabbath still mattered at all).

Think about the argument the serpent makes to Eve "do you really think God is going to condemn all of mankind just because you happen to eat fruit from the wrong tree? really? isn't that against the freedom you have as intelligent life forms - free agents? Surely God will not do that"

Think about Christ's words in Ex 20 "love Me and Keep My commandments"

And in John 14:15 "if you Love Me - Keep My Commandments".

And in 1 John 5:1-4 we show we love God when we "Keep His Commandments"

And in Rev 14:15 "The saints Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

And notice Christ's own statement when the Jews (who are Not claiming to be at War against the Ten Commandments nor against the 5th Commandment) merely "edit slightly" the 5th commandment with their "CORBAN" alteration... .Notice what Christ said -

Christ's thinking on the subject of breaking one of God's Commandments by claiming to bend-edit slightly-modify one of them.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

Isn't that a bit drastic in Gen 3 --- just for eating fruit from the wrong tree?

Isn't that a bit drastic in Mark 7 --- just for slight "tweek" of the 5th commandment - not really claiming to make God's commandment void?

What about when the claim IS to make it void???

Hence that other thread -- #1 ---where we explore this point in detail.

And as I ask there - "IF there IS a great solution to this question in favor of Sabbath breaking - why is this not presented in full on Sundays so that all can be informed of it? Why aren't we all the saints told about the affirmation of the Ten Commandments by the "Baptist Confession of Faith" , the "Westminster Confession of Faith" - Matthew Henry , the Protestant Reformers -- and the Bible predicting that "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship " -- and yet it still works out that Sabbath breaking is just fine. Why not give people that full picture of this elephant in the living room?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Regarding the "Investigative Pre-advent Judgment" that we see in Daniel 7

There were 50,000 Millerites in 1844 and of that - 50 took at look at this and start off along the road that the details in Dan 7 point unmistakably to judgment in heaven, before the 2nd coming, based on books being opened, and at the conclusion of which we have the 2nd coming.

Thus they argued that while the timelines were correct the event predicted by the Millerites was wrong.

Some jews argued that the Disciples predicted a certain event on Palm Sunday and that event failed on crucifixion-Friday. How "convenient" for them then to have a doctrine about the resurrection of Christ?

Certainly we can view these "solution" as nothing more than "mere convenience" if there is no actual Bible support for them. I freely admit that fact.

But as pointed out here ---- #1 #47 ----- on its dedicated thread -- there is clear Bible evidence ..

and this other thread #2

======================================================================================

[FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

in Christ,

Bob

 

I point to the Bible being placed on an unrestricted platform when the printing press and Bible societies are put in place making it available to all mankind in the language of the people.

however at the time of the 1260 years of the dark ages - there are both OT and NT and in Romans 4 God says "A father of many nations I HAVE made you" to Abraham while as yet Abraham had no children at all. God is not limited by time in His statements.

The point I am making about the day-for-year 1260 year dark ages with the Catholic church as the persecuting power against the saints - is premillennial and is not promoted by Catholics.

 

the Protestant endorsed Historicist model of prophetic interpretation is very helpful in Dan 7, Rev 11, 12, 13 in pointing us to the 1260 year dark ages persecution of the saints -- 50 to 100 million Christians are killed then and this is not "insignificant".

So also in Rev 11 the city where they are killed is spiritually "Sodom and Egypt" France at that time had the moral depravity of Sodom and the atheist 'who is God that I should serve him" mindset of pharaoh in Egypt.

The voice of the nation - the nation speaks through its government - and the government of France declared itself to be atheist - no other government in Christendom had done that. God 'noticed".

America is about to declare some of the abominations of Lev 18 to be promoted approved and harshly enforced in some instances -- through its elected, governmental agency.

The Jews in the form of their governing body declared that Christ was not their Messiah - not their King. God "noticed".

in Christ,

Bob

 

I think the point of the thread is not to demonstrate improved name-calling and ranting skills - rather facts are that which is valued.

I even point this out by way of reminder in my sig.

When reason vacates in regard to a given subject, the only weapons of argument left are in the hands of emotion. The simplest emotional weapons to wield are name-calling ,disparaging remarks, vitriol and acrimony for those deemed adversaries. All such ad hominem tactics provide nothing of persuasive substance, except to those whose reason has also been vacated on that same subject.

More than one or two people have offered actual substance in their posts when finding objections to the prophecies/teaching of Ellen White. Though I think they are wrong in their suggestions - I think they are right to make their tests 'sola scriptura'.

Since you started this thread you may correct me and insist that empty-fluff-rant is the only real content you wanted in this thread. Then we can all go to another one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Stand on your own, why hide in the skirts of Protestants which you are not?

It is the Bible (NT and OT) that was killed and resurrected 3.5 days later, and taken to heaven. So after that we have a bibleless earth.

How comes we have a bible yet it was taken up to heaven?

Been waiting for National Sunday Law for 150 years

How comes we have the bible yet it was taken to heaven?

 

Whereas Revelation 11 speaks of death, physical death, in which the Two involved are resurrected then raptured (caught up).

As far as the Word of God being "resurrected" with the invention of the printing press, it has withstood the test of time long before the printing press was invented.

Didn't Darby invent it in the 19th century?

That is a good point, one I will not argue, because it is true we could impose a future reference of the New Testament in many passages.

However, and you knew that was coming, lol, that is not the only indication that the Two Witnesses of Revelation are human, not a spiritualized reference to the Testaments.

In Zechariah 4 we see a clear reference to Zerubbabel in the answer given, and it does speak of the Word and will of God, but, it also includes who His will is effected through.

Furthermore, we see in Christ, the Branch, the combining of the two Offices of High Priest and King.


Zechariah 3:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.



Zechariah 6:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.



While I would agree that the Two Testaments represent the Will and Word of God, that does not nullify the context of Revelation 11 where it is a stretch to make these two something besides men.

I would also add that presenting the will and Word of God as dying, even if it is just symbolically or figuratively presented, is contrary to every definitive statement in Scripture in regards to the Word of God.

For example (and I won't belabor the point (and don't say Too Late! lol)):


Matthew 5:17-18

King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


This stands in direct contradiction to the word of God "dying," and is just one more reason to reject a spiritualized interpretation of the Two Witnesses.

There were many great Catholics, Bob. Jerome, for example, was a great scholar who I personally believe was a sincere believer.

And among Catholics through those dark ages I think we would do God an injustice to assume that there were no born again believers who, like many today...have issues with the denomination or faith they are part of. Who maintained Christ as the Central Figure of Scripture, despite the absconding of power and authority sought by some.

It is when the denomination or faith becomes the center of attention that we see abuses. It is when it becomes more important to defend or advocate a particular sect or faith that we have to question what the motivation for the priority is.

As far as the formula od conversion, I posted how it does not, in my view, maintain a consistency with Scriptural figuratives. What is meant is recorded, and we do not confuse Daniel's "weeks" with days or months, but see them as periods of years. Peter did not create a conversion formula in stating "a thousand years is as a day," but simply meant to say that time is relevant to mankind, not God, Who is Eternal.

God bless.

 

So then - I will have to go with the Bible on this one - and so apparently did the Protestant Reformers choose the Bible when it comes to Historicist method of prophetic interpretation.

I am fine with you being at war with the bible and the Protestant Reformation.

To each his own. You have free will.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The apocalyptic symbols of Rev 11 include the city "spiritually Sodom" AND also "Egypt".

The day-for-year Historicist principle in Rev 11, 12, 13 just as it is in Dan 7, 8, 9 when it comes to apocalyptic prophecy.

in Dan 9 having had that method proven beyond all doubt with the 490 days - 70 weeks - that translate to the 490 years pointing to the first coming of Christ from the time of restoring Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity was to end.

It revives in France after 3.5 years of the official state rule being atheism - they relented on that point after 3.5 years.

It is taken out of the reach of human intervention - so that unlike the 1260 years where it was kept out of reach -- it became available to all similar to the first century access.

And as God points out in Zech 4 that WORD is symbolized as the "two olive trees" and the "two lampstands".

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible and the oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Protestant Reformation is long before the 19th century - and all historians admit that the Historicist model was used as the Protestant Reformer's mode for 300.

Darby shows up late to that party.

The bible burning and torture infallibly (supposedly) commanded in the dark ages by the RCC - is pretty hard to ignore. Even their own Benedict admits that 25 million are on record as slaughtered under that system and as much as 2/3's of the records are missing.

As sad as that it - the LATERAN IV command to "EXTERMINATE heretics" is still demanded - maintained as an "Infallible" command by the RCC because it is an ecumenical council that is doing this and adding it to their own canon law.

having admitted to those sad facts of actual history that cannot be swept under a rug for the sake of PC style and popularity - still I never claim that every Catholic in the dark ages was lost. Not sure where you got that.

The 70 weeks of Dan 9 cannot be made into 490 years unless you take each day in those weeks and make it a solar year. Again - just a fact that is accepted by all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

What is hard to ignore is,
You have no figure for explaining the resurrection of the two witnesses and their subsequent rapture into heaven

 

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 ""And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.''[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 These are the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two olive trees[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two lampstands[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that stand before the Lord of the earth.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The two witnesses are the two lampstands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Two lampstands are the Word of God (OT and the NT[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

 

Apocalyptic writing -- uses symbols where the city is called "Sodom AND Egypt".

Sodom is a city - never to return. Burned by eternal fire Jude 7

Egypt is a nation.

Symbolism for the moral depravity of Sodom and the "Who is God that I should serve him" view of Egypt at the time of Moses.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are told the names are SYMBOLIC in the text itself to leave no doubt. So you are wasting time expounding what the Holy Spirit did in 96AD:tongue3:

Isn't it hypocritical to believe the people who rejoice over the deaths of the two witnesses and denied their bodies burial are ACTUAL people but the two are not despite their being overpowered, killed, resurrected and raptured?

What you should do with Revelation is assume everything is literal UNLESS there is reason to deviate. Otherwise you will end up saying God DID NOT say and mean what He clearly appears to say and mean.Briefly give reasons why the two witnesses can't possibly be two men.

Start by explaining this
Revelation 11:12-13 (KJV)
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
1. The great voice -was it literal or symbolic? If symbolic what does it represent
2. Ascending to heaven in a cloud- again was it literal or symbolic. How did the NT and OT ascend to heaven in a cloud, the same place a voice came from
3. They had enemies- were they literal or symbolic?
4. Their enemies beheld them ascending- literal/symbolic? If symbolic, what does it represent?
5. The tenth of the city- is it literal/symbolic?
6. The earthquake- literal/symbolic?
7. The 7,000 men slain? We're the men literal/symbolic? What about their deaths?
8. The remnant- they were affrighted, gave glory to God. Was any of this literal (fear and glory)?