Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

[vooks]

The book of John was written after the book of Revelation.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says no more prophecy.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "prophecy has ceased".

Eph 4 says prophecy continues until the 2nd coming.

Think about it. - Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes,
The gifts are alive and for the last 1900 years and amidst billions of Christians dead and alive, ONLY Ellen White has demonstrated the gift of prophecy and NOBODY else ever will till Christ comes back.

That same mad woman said the Lord was against blacks marrying whites, called it confusion probably because she actively believed they were closer to animals than other races

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't this the part where you tell everyone how glad you are that the Southern Baptists formed over the determination to hold slaves in south and so also Methodist and Presbyterian southern divisions - and how wrong Ellen White was to insist that all races are equal in the sight of God??

Tell everyone how you "condemn" this --

[FONT=&quot]"God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in his hands. He will punish the South for the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]... At the Roosevelt conference, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting and prayer, Sabbath, Aug. 3, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision, and shown the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]."[/FONT] -Review and Herald, Aug. 27, 1861


[FONT=&quot]God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in His hands. He will punish the South for the sin of slavery, and the North for so long suffering its overreaching and overbearing influence.{1T 264.1}[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At the Conference at Roosevelt, New York, August 3, 1861, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting, and prayer, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision and shown the sin of slavery, which has so long been a curse to this nation. The fugitive slave law was calculated to crush out of man every noble, generous feeling of sympathy that should arise in his heart for the oppressed and suffering slave. It was in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ. God’s scourge is now upon the North, because they have so long submitted to the advances of the slave power. The sin of Northern proslavery men is great. They have strengthened the South in their sin by sanctioning the extension of slavery; they have acted a prominent part in bringing the nation into its present distressed condition.{1T 264.2}[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"Christ came to this earth with a message of mercy and forgiveness. He laid the foundation for a religion by which Jew and Gentile, black and white, free and bond, are linked together in one common brotherhood, recognized as equal in the sight of God."
1 Testimonies, vol. 7. P. 225[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"'You have never looked upon slavery in the right light, and your views of this matter have thrown you on the side of the Rebellion, which was stirred up by Satan and his host. Your views of slavery cannot harmonize with the sacred, important truths for this time. You must yield your views or the truth. Both cannot be cherished in the same heart, for they are at war with each other. . . . Unless you undo what you have done, it will be the duty of God's people to publicly withdraw their sympathy and fellowship from you, in order to save the impression which must go out in regard to us as a people. We must let it be known that we have no such ones in our fellowship, that we will not walk with them in church capacity.'"[Ref 5] Testimonies, vol. 7. , pp. 359, 360

[FONT=&quot]============================== then

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]then remind us all how you pra[FONT=&quot]is[FONT=&quot]e this --

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.baptisthistory.org/sbaptistbeginnings.htm[/FONT]

The meetings of the three Baptist national societies in the 1840s brought angry debates between Northerners and Southerners. These debates concerned the interpretation of the constitutions of the societies on slavery, the right of Southerners to receive missionary appointments, the authority of a denominational society to discipline church members, and the neglect of the South in the appointment of missionaries. The stage was set for separation.
In 1844, Georgia Baptists asked the Home Mission Society to appoint a slaveholder to be a missionary in Georgia. After much discussion, the appointment was declined. A few months later, the Alabama Baptist Convention asked the Foreign Mission Society if they would appoint a slaveholder as a missionary. When the society said no, Virginia Baptists called for Baptists of the South to meet at Augusta, Georgia, in early May, 1845, for the purpose of consulting "on the best means of promoting the Foreign Mission cause, and other interests of the Baptist denomination in the South."
Thus, on May 8, 1845, about 293 Baptist leaders of the South gathered at the First Baptist Church, Augusta, Georgia, representing over 365,000 Baptists. They concluded, with expressions of regret from their own leaders and from distinguished northern Baptist leaders, that more could be accomplished in Christian work by the organization in the South of a separate Baptist body for missionary work. The Methodists in the South had already separated over the issue of slavery, and southern Presbyterians would do so later.

 

[vooks]

Isn't this the part where you tell everyone how glad you are that the Southern Baptists formed over the determination to hold slaves in south and so also Methodist and Presbyterian southern divisions - and how wrong Ellen White was to insist that all races are equal in the sight of God??

Tell everyone how you "condemn" this --

[FONT=&quot]"God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in his hands. He will punish the South for the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]... At the Roosevelt conference, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting and prayer, Sabbath, Aug. 3, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision, and shown the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]."[/FONT] -Review and Herald, Aug. 27, 1861


[FONT=&quot]God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in His hands. He will punish the South for the sin of slavery, and the North for so long suffering its overreaching and overbearing influence.{1T 264.1}[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At the Conference at Roosevelt, New York, August 3, 1861, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting, and prayer, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision and shown the sin of slavery, which has so long been a curse to this nation. The fugitive slave law was calculated to crush out of man every noble, generous feeling of sympathy that should arise in his heart for the oppressed and suffering slave. It was in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ. God’s scourge is now upon the North, because they have so long submitted to the advances of the slave power. The sin of Northern proslavery men is great. They have strengthened the South in their sin by sanctioning the extension of slavery; they have acted a prominent part in bringing the nation into its present distressed condition.{1T 264.2}[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"Christ came to this earth with a message of mercy and forgiveness. He laid the foundation for a religion by which Jew and Gentile, black and white, free and bond, are linked together in one common brotherhood, recognized as equal in the sight of God."
1 Testimonies, vol. 7. P. 225[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"'You have never looked upon slavery in the right light, and your views of this matter have thrown you on the side of the Rebellion, which was stirred up by Satan and his host. Your views of slavery cannot harmonize with the sacred, important truths for this time. You must yield your views or the truth. Both cannot be cherished in the same heart, for they are at war with each other. . . . Unless you undo what you have done, it will be the duty of God's people to publicly withdraw their sympathy and fellowship from you, in order to save the impression which must go out in regard to us as a people. We must let it be known that we have no such ones in our fellowship, that we will not walk with them in church capacity.'"[Ref 5] Testimonies, vol. 7. , pp. 359, 360

[FONT=&quot]============================== then

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]then remind us all how you pra[FONT=&quot]is[FONT=&quot]e this --

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.baptisthistory.org/sbaptistbeginnings.htm[/FONT]

The meetings of the three Baptist national societies in the 1840s brought angry debates between Northerners and Southerners. These debates concerned the interpretation of the constitutions of the societies on slavery, the right of Southerners to receive missionary appointments, the authority of a denominational society to discipline church members, and the neglect of the South in the appointment of missionaries. The stage was set for separation.
In 1844, Georgia Baptists asked the Home Mission Society to appoint a slaveholder to be a missionary in Georgia. After much discussion, the appointment was declined. A few months later, the Alabama Baptist Convention asked the Foreign Mission Society if they would appoint a slaveholder as a missionary. When the society said no, Virginia Baptists called for Baptists of the South to meet at Augusta, Georgia, in early May, 1845, for the purpose of consulting "on the best means of promoting the Foreign Mission cause, and other interests of the Baptist denomination in the South."
Thus, on May 8, 1845, about 293 Baptist leaders of the South gathered at the First Baptist Church, Augusta, Georgia, representing over 365,000 Baptists. They concluded, with expressions of regret from their own leaders and from distinguished northern Baptist leaders, that more could be accomplished in Christian work by the organization in the South of a separate Baptist body for missionary work. The Methodists in the South had already separated over the issue of slavery, and southern Presbyterians would do so later.

What's the big deal with a Negro marrying a white? What god/spirit forbade that?

 

[BobRyan]

The answer to your childish prank - is in the post that you are not reading.

read.

Become informed.

=========================================

Smith and others argued falsely that Ellen White had been shown Jupiter in a vision/dream - though she never claimed any such thing. The fact that you cannot sustain your false accusations from what Ellen White actually said "is instructive".

I have never claimed that Uriah Smith had inspired messaged from God - nor has any other SDA that I know of -- and we have a lot of non-white SDAs as it turns out.

As for the fact that you don' know what you're talking about.
===========================================
[FONT=&quot]"God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in his hands. He will punish the South for the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]... At the Roosevelt conference, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting and prayer, Sabbath, Aug. 3, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision, and shown the [FONT=&quot]sin of slavery[/FONT]."[/FONT] -Review and Herald, Aug. 27, 1861


[FONT=&quot]God is punishing this nation for the high crime of slavery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He has the destiny of the nation in His hands. He will punish the South for the sin of slavery, and the North for so long suffering its overreaching and overbearing influence.{1T 264.1}[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At the Conference at Roosevelt, New York, August 3, 1861, when the brethren and sisters were assembled on the day set apart for humiliation, fasting, and prayer, the Spirit of the Lord rested upon us, and I was taken off in vision and shown the sin of slavery, which has so long been a curse to this nation. The fugitive slave law was calculated to crush out of man every noble, generous feeling of sympathy that should arise in his heart for the oppressed and suffering slave. It was in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ. God’s scourge is now upon the North, because they have so long submitted to the advances of the slave power. The sin of Northern proslavery men is great. They have strengthened the South in their sin by sanctioning the extension of slavery; they have acted a prominent part in bringing the nation into its present distressed condition.{1T 264.2}[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"Christ came to this earth with a message of mercy and forgiveness. He laid the foundation for a religion by which Jew and Gentile, black and white, free and bond, are linked together in one common brotherhood, recognized as equal in the sight of God."
1 Testimonies, vol. 7. P. 225[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"'You have never looked upon slavery in the right light, and your views of this matter have thrown you on the side of the Rebellion, which was stirred up by Satan and his host. Your views of slavery cannot harmonize with the sacred, important truths for this time. You must yield your views or the truth. Both cannot be cherished in the same heart, for they are at war with each other. . . . Unless you undo what you have done, it will be the duty of God's people to publicly withdraw their sympathy and fellowship from you, in order to save the impression which must go out in regard to us as a people. We must let it be known that we have no such ones in our fellowship, that we will not walk with them in church capacity.'"[Ref 5] Testimonies, vol. 7. , pp. 359, 360[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At a time when slavery was an open question for Americans, Mrs. White declared that Adventists holding pro-slavery views were anathema [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even in the North, abolitionists were considered extremists. A few days after Pennsylvania Hall, built especially for abolitionist meeting Philadelphia, was first opened, a pro-slavery mob burned it to the ground. William Lloyd Garrison, commemorated today by a statue in Boston, was mobbed by Bostonians trying to tar and feather him for abolitionist agitation. As one historian has said, "To be an abolitionist in Boston, Philadelphia, or Cincinnati meant courting social ostracism, business ruin, and physical assault." [Ref 10] Frank Thistlewaite, America and the Atlantic Community (1959), p. 116[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Among the variety of anti-slavery groups, Adventists identified themselves with the radical, abolitionist minority. Sojourner Truth, one of the black heroines of abolition, visited a Millerite camp meeting in 1843, though she did not agree them. Years later she settled in Battle Creek. There she had Seventh day Adventist friends, and early Battle Creek College students often visited her. At least one edition of her biography printed by the Adventist’s - Review and Herald for its author, Frances Titus. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Joseph Bates the former sea captain who had so much to do with Adventists, accepting the Sabbath, first supported the American Colonization Society, later helped found the abolitionist society in his home town. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Even within this extreme reformist segment of American society some were more radical than others and Adventist stood with the more activist. "Abolitionists" were also divided on the matter of devoting time and energy to assisting fugitive slaves.[Ref 13:] Larry Gara, "Who Was an Abolitionist?" The Anti-Slavery Vanguard, p. 39[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Prominent Adventists had no such qualms. John Preston Kellogg, the father of John Harvey Kellogg and W[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]K. Kellogg was one of the incorporators of the Seventh Day Adventist publishing association and a member of the Seventh day Adventist Church to the end of his life. He used his farms in Michigan to harbor slaves fleeing their former owners. [Ref 14] SDA Encyclopedia (1966), pp. 650, 1060.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
John Byington. the first president of the General Conference of Seventh day Adventists had earlier left the Methodist Episcopal Church because it did not take a stand against slavery. At his farm in Buck's Bridge, New York, he maintained a station of the Underground Railroad, illegally transporting fugitive slaves from the South to Canada. [Ref 15] 15 SDA Encyclopedia (1966), p. 181
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anyone who thinks these men were aberrations with the Adventist Church should remember that Mrs. White herself said that, "the law of ou[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT] land requiring us to deliver a slave to his master, we are not to obey." [Ref 16] Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 202[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Great men professing to have human hearts have seen the slaves almost naked and starving and have abused them and sent them back to their cruel masters hopeless bondage.... They have deprived them of their liberty and free air which heaven has never denied them, and then left them to suffer for food and clothing. In view of all this, a national fast is proclaimed! Oh, what an insult to Jehovah!" [Ref 23] Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 257.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[DHK]

The book of John was written after the book of Revelation.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says no more prophecy.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "prophecy has ceased".

Eph 4 says prophecy continues until the 2nd coming.

Think about it. - Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't have to think about it. Just look at Scripture.

1Co 13:8-13
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love never fails. There is a reason for that. Verse 13 calls love the greatest of all the gifts. Why is it the greatest gift? Of all the gifts it alone is eternal.
There are three groups of gifts that Paul mentions here:
1. Temporary.
2. Semi-permanent.
3. Permanent, which is love alone.

The temporary gifts are given in verse 8:
1Co 13:8
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Prophesies, tongues, and (revelatory) knowledge are all temporary gifts and will at some time vanish away. The question is when?

Paul says:
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--We know in part. The part that they knew was the OT. That is the "revelation" that they had. This whole section deals with revelation. That is the context here. They had the OT revelation--a part of the revelation of God.
We prophesy in part. Until the NT canon was finished God gave them some spiritual gifts which would make up for NT revelation. The major one was "prophesy." Through prophesy and revelatory knowledge they received knowledge from God which would eventually become the same knowledge that would be written in the Bible. For now God gave it to them through these gifts.
Thus we know in part, and "we prophesy in part. The prophecy was the part that was temporary. It would pass away when the NT was complete (as well as all other spiritual gifts).

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
The word "perfect" in the Greek is teleios. It means "complete." It is a neutral word demanding a neutral gender, and therefore cannot refer to Christ or any other masculine object. It refers to the Word of God, which is the subject or context of this passage.
We know in part and we prophecy in part; but when that which is complete is come (the Bible), then that which is in part (temporary gifts--tongues, prophecy, revelatory knowledge) they shall be done away. There will be no more need for them. We will have the completed Word of God. These other revelatory gifts will pass away, as they did at the end of the first century. History attests to that.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--Love is the greatest gift; it lasts forever.
What about these other two.
How long will faith and hope last.
Faith needs an object. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. When Christ comes we will have no more need of faith.

The same is true of hope:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
--Christ is our hope. We wait for him. When he does come we have no more need of hope.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--Hope that is seen is not hope.
What a man sees, why does he yet hope for it?

When we see Jesus we will no longer hope for him.
Faith and hope will no longer be needed when Jesus comes again.
Only love will last forever.

Prophecy has already ceased along with all the other temporary gifts.

 

[One Baptism]

I don't have to think about it. Just look at Scripture. ...

Prophecy has already ceased along with all the other temporary gifts.

Brother DHK, it is not a matter of understanding Prophecy as temporary, as it is cited as such in Ephesians 4, but it is the timing of the end of that gift that is in question, between us:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; - Ephesians 4:11

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: - Ephesians 4:12

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: - Ephesians 4:13

That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Ephesians 4:14​

Would you like to suggest that the other "gifts" listed with "prophets", such as "apostles", "evangelists", "pastors", "teachers", are also gone in "knowledge" [1 Cor 13]? What then of the "perfecting" the saints, the "edifying", and the "work of the ministry" of which prophesying is given for also?

You are a 'dispensationalist' yes? What do you do with the following passages then since "prophesying" is to [supposedly] have ceased [when, in AD 90, with John and the Revelation of Jesus, what then of afterwards, when John wrote the Epistles??? waring against false Prophets, not all claiming to be prophets, which means true ones still existed then and after] and we all are to be without prophets:

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. - Revelation 10:11 [this is seen being fuilfilled in Revelation 14:6-7, 8, 9-11, 12]

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. - Revelation 11:10

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. - Revelation 11:18

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. - Revelation 16:6

Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. - Revelation 18:20

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. - Revelation 18:24

Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:9​

Are these verses now irrelevant?

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. - 1 Corinthians 14:29

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. - 1 Corinthians 14:32

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. - 1 Corinthians 14:33​

Look with me at the Sanctuary pattern again, Psalms 77:13...

 

[Yeshua1]

The book of John was written after the book of Revelation.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says no more prophecy.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "prophecy has ceased".

Eph 4 says prophecy continues until the 2nd coming.

Think about it. - Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Revelation was last book written though, by the aged Apostle, and No ONE since him has had the inspiration from God to record/write theology as they did!

We do not reject thre true prophets and Apsotles of God, but Ellen White was a false one!

 

[One Baptism]

Yes,
The gifts are alive and for the last 1900 years and amidst billions of Christians dead and alive, ONLY Ellen White has demonstrated the gift of prophecy and NOBODY else ever will till Christ comes back...

Brother vooks, do you know "adventist" history? There were others before sister White, even William Foy [William Ellis Foy (1818–1893) was an African American Freewill Baptist minister and preacher in the Millerite movement, who claimed to receive four visions from 1842 (two visions) to 1844.] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_in_the_Seventh-day_Adventist_Church#William_Foy and Hazen Foss [Hazen Foss (1818–1893) was another Millerite who claimed to receive several visions. However he refused to proclaim them ...] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Foss

Angels also worked with John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Johan Huss, Martin Luther, William Miller, and others.

One of the primary reasons of the gift of prophecy being not so prominent in the many years, is because the "light" was being slowly extinguished by Romanism, in the dark ages, and the 1,260 years. Prophecy is a light, and when people turn away from the Law of God, prophecy goes out in degrees with it.

However, in following the pattern of the Sanctuary, Psalms 77:13, we see that once 1844 was reached [end of the 1,335 & 2,300 day/years of Daniel] we see The Most Holy Place opened in Heaven [Daniel 7, Revelation 3, etc], and since therein is the Real, on earth the typical, next to the Ark, which contains the Law of God, was the "Testimony".... which is "the testimony of Jesus", being "the spirit of Prophecy" [Revelation 19:10], empowered again to "prophesy again" to all nations...Revelation 10 & 14 & 18...

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK, it is not a matter of understanding Prophecy as temporary, as it is cited as such in Ephesians 4, but it is the timing of the end of that gift that is in question, between us:

Paul wrote two epistles to the Corinthians which we have with us. (He wrote a couple of others as well.) The first he wrote in 55 A.D. and the second was about 57 A.D. In 58 A.D. he proceeded to Corinth and stayed with them for some time, and from there wrote the book of Ephesians.
--When Paul wrote 1Corinthians, the spiritual gifts had already started to wane.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; - Ephesians 4:11
--Not all of these are available to us today as they were to either the Corinthians or Ephesians.
Neither the Corinthians nor the Ephesians could appoint apostles for themselves. God had appointed apostles and that was it. The office of the apostle was finished. There were the twelve, Matthias being the twelfth, and then Paul, "as one born out of due time." Obviously the office of the apostle was finished. By the end of the century the office of a prophet was finished.
Now remains for the churches: evangelists, pastors and teachers. That is how this verse is to be interpreted.
Notice the word "some." There were some apostles. There were some prophets. That is history. There are still evangelists, pastors and teachers.

For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: - Ephesians 4:12

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: - Ephesians 4:13

That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Ephesians 4:14[/INDENT]

Would you like to suggest that the other "gifts" listed with "prophets", such as "apostles", "evangelists", "pastors", "teachers", are also gone in "knowledge" [1 Cor 13]? What then of the "perfecting" the saints, the "edifying", and the "work of the ministry" of which prophesying is given for also?

As noted, the office of apostles, the gift of prophecy and the "prophets" have gone. Pastors, teachers and evangelists were left and are left to "for the maturing of the saints and the work of the ministry, which "prophecy" is definitely NOT a part of.

You are a 'dispensationalist' yes? What do you do with the following passages then since "prophesying" is to [supposedly] have ceased [when, in AD 90, with John and the Revelation of Jesus, what then of afterwards, when John wrote the Epistles??? waring against false Prophets, not all claiming to be prophets, which means true ones still existed then and after] and we all are to be without prophets:

The spiritual gifts lasted until the end of the first century or until the canon was completed. The last book of the Bible was the book of Revelation written ca. 98 A.D. So what is your problem?

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. - Revelation 10:11 [this is seen being fuilfilled in Revelation 14:6-7, 8, 9-11, 12.][/quote]
--The word "prophecy" also has the meaning of "forth-telling" much like proclaiming. This is what John did in the rest of the Book of Revelation. I do not agree with your interpretation at all.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. - Revelation 11:10

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. - Revelation 11:18

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. - Revelation 16:6

Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. - Revelation 18:20

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. - Revelation 18:24

Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:9[/INDENT]

Are these verses now irrelevant?

Of course they are irrelevant. They are all taken from the Book of Revelation, are entirely future, speak of a different era, a different time period or dispensation, and have nothing to do with this time and age. Yes, they are irrelevant.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. - 1 Corinthians 14:29

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. - 1 Corinthians 14:32

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Those who call themselves prophets are false prophets for both the gift and office of prophets have ceased. Ergo: EGW was a false prophet.
Even the above scriptures would prove the "prophets" of today false.
Not only the "gift of prophecy" would have to be currently given, but also the gift of "discernment."

1. There can be no more than 2 or 3 prophets, and they must speak in turn.
2. The other prophets (at least 2) must be able to discern by the Spirit of God, if what the current prophet is saying is true and from God.
3. Under OT theology if but one thing was out of order the prophet would have been stoned.
Conclusion: EGW, would have been stoned to death on a number of occasions, for many of her prophesies turned out to be false. The SDA, therefore, is a false religion based on a false prophet, uttering false prophesies, who under OT law would have been stoned to death.

The gift of prophecy ceased more than 2,000 years ago. Don't be deceived.

 

[One Baptism]

...Of course they are irrelevant. ...

"[T]hey" referring to the Scriptures cited [Revelation 11:10,18, 16:6, 18:20,24, 22:9].

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - 2 Timothy 3:16​

Irrelevancy of those cited passages, either to us, and/or to all, cannot coexist with 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by DHK It says "prophecy has ceased." It ceased when revelation ceased. Revelation ceased with the book of Revelation was completed.

The book of John was written after the book of Revelation.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says no more prophecy.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "prophecy has ceased".

Eph 4 says prophecy continues until the 2nd coming.

Think about it. - Details matter.

I don't have to think about it. Just look at Scripture.

1Co 13:8-13
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1. That would be the second coming

2. That 1Cor 13 text brings us to 1Cor 14 "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIAlly that you may prophesy"

3. Paul kept writing after 1Cor 13.

4. Many more NT letters also were written after 1Cor 13.

5. Nothing in 1Cor 13 mentions John nor does it say "after the first century then no more Spiritual gift of prophecy"

We prophesy in part. Until the NT canon was finished God gave them some spiritual gifts which would make up for NT revelation. The major one was "prophesy." Through prophesy and revelatory knowledge they received knowledge from God which would eventually become the same knowledge that would be written in the Bible. For now God gave it to them through these gifts.
Thus we know in part, and "we prophesy in part. The prophecy was the part that was temporary. It would pass away when the NT was complete (as well as all other spiritual gifts).

1Cor 13 Knowledge, Tongues and Prophecy are temporary - those who have no knowledge raise your hands.

We know in part and we prophecy in part; but when that which is complete is come

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--Love is the greatest gift; it lasts forever.
What about these other two.
How long will faith and hope last.
Faith needs an object. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. When Christ comes we will have no more need of faith.

Indeed it all points to the 2nd coming.

No bible text says "prophecy" has ceased or will cease when so-and-so writes his last letter. No not one text.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

1Cor 13
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known

1Cor 13 is pointing to the 2nd coming as the time when gifts cease.

So also Eph 4

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Again -- the second coming!

And until then - what is the benefit of those gifts??

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

=====================

"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1 that is the message to the church.

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.


1 Thess 5
19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

""despise NOT prophetic statements" --- rather than "despise God's prophets for this pleases God"

1 John 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Test the prophets -- not "ignore the prophets brethren"
in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

"[T]hey" referring to the Scriptures cited [Revelation 11:10,18, 16:6, 18:20,24, 22:9].

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - 2 Timothy 3:16​

Irrelevancy of those cited passages, either to us, and/or to all, cannot coexist with 2 Timothy 3:16.

Next you will claim to be one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 because "all scripture is "relevant."
Right!

 

[BobRyan]

Those who call themselves prophets are false prophets .

A great example of the Bible we do not have - a text that does not exist in actual scripture.

for that sort of thing - you quote you.

1. That would be the second coming

2. That 1Cor 13 text brings us to 1Cor 14 "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIAlly that you may prophesy"

3. Paul kept writing after 1Cor 13.

4. Many more NT letters also were written after 1Cor 13.

5. Nothing in 1Cor 13 mentions John nor does it say "after the first century then no more Spiritual gift of prophecy"





1Cor 13 Knowledge, Tongues and Prophecy are temporary - those who have no knowledge raise your hands.




Indeed it all points to the 2nd coming.

No bible text says "prophecy" has ceased or will cease when so-and-so writes his last letter. No not one text.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

1Cor 13
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known

1Cor 13 is pointing to the 2nd coming as the time when gifts cease.

So also Eph 4

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Again -- the second coming!

And until then - what is the benefit of those gifts??

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

=====================

"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1 that is the message to the church.

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.


1 Thess 5
19Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

""despise NOT prophetic statements" --- rather than "despise God's prophets for this pleases God"

1 John 4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Test the prophets -- not "ignore the prophets brethren"
in Christ,

Bob

I am going to have to go with the Bible on this subject.

 

[DHK]

The book of John was written after the book of Revelation.

John was written ca. 90 A.D., and Revelation was written ca. 98 A.D. Revelation was written last and the ECF placed it last for that reason.

There is nothing in the book of Revelation that says no more prophecy.

Noooo, nothing at all!
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Add to that a proper interpretation of 1Cor.13:8-13 and you have irrefutable evidence.

There is nothing in the Bible that says "prophecy has ceased".

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Written in 55 A.D., their function has ceased to purposeful since the Bible was completed at the end of the first century. The ceased then. History also verifies the same.

Eph 4 says prophecy continues until the 2nd coming.

It says nothing of the kind.

Think about it. - Details matter.

Yes, details matter, and you are not paying attention to them.

1Co 13:8-10
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1. That would be the second coming

Context is not speaking of the Second Coming, but about revelation.
The word "perfect" does not fit the "Second Coming" but rather a neuter word like that fits the Word of God or the Bible. IOW, "Its second coming," is wrong. He is coming--a man, not an it. The Bible was completed (the meaning of the word), Christ did not have to be completed, neither did his coming.

2. That 1Cor 13 text brings us to 1Cor 14 "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIAlly that you may prophesy"

And so? He was writing to the Corinthians in 55 A.D., not you in the 21st century. The gifts ceased at the end of the first century.

3. Paul kept writing after 1Cor 13.

Yes, but he died ca. 68 A.D. well before the end of the first century.

4. Many more NT letters also were written after 1Cor 13.

All ended before the close of the canon at the end of the first century.

5. Nothing in 1Cor 13 mentions John nor does it say "after the first century then no more Spiritual gift of prophecy"

"when that which is perfect is come" (the completion of the Word of God),
"then that which is in part shall be done away" (temporary spiritual gifts such as prophecy and tongues).

1Cor 13 Knowledge, Tongues and Prophecy are temporary - those who have no knowledge raise your hands.

And you don't. SDA is heretical enough. But to claim you have revelatory knowledge would really be heresy. All revelation ceased with the closing of the canon in the first century.

Indeed it all points to the 2nd coming.

--Point to one verse in that passage that refers to the Second Coming.
You can't. The entire three chapters all speak of "revelation." There is no Second Coming in these chapters. It is about the revelation of God's Word.

No bible text says "prophecy" has ceased or will cease when so-and-so writes his last letter. No not one text.

Repetition of a lie doesn't make it a truth. I have given you two passages already.

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the passage at hand.

1Cor 13
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known

The mirror is the mirror of God's Word. James uses the same figure of speech.
James 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man beholding his natural face in a mirror; (WEB)
Paul looks into God's Word as he has it, the OT. It gives him a dark picture.
When the NT comes it will shine brightly reflecting back a picture of himself as if he was looking at the Savior face to face. Such is the NT revelation.

1Cor 13 is pointing to the 2nd coming as the time when gifts cease.

There is no second Coming in 1Cor.13!! The subject is revelation.

So also Eph 4

11 And He gave some asapostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Again -- the second coming!

What second coming?
It is speaking of the maturing of the saints?
Have you not yet learned to be mature yet?
Furthermore, the spiritual gifts are not mentioned here, and just as the apostolic office is not for today, neither is the prophetic office.

And until then - what is the benefit of those gifts??

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

There is nothing here that helps you.

"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1 that is the message to the church.

To the church in Corinth and in the first century; not to you in the 21st century!

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.

Yes, You used the same KJV that the Apostle Paul used, right?

 

[BobRyan]

John was written ca. 90 A.D., and Revelation was written ca. 98 A.D.

1. John returned from Patmos - went back to Ephesus and wrote the Gospel of John.

And all of it - long after 1Cor 13.

According to Papias, one of John's disciples, John later went to the city of Ephesus. He was exiled under Emperor Domitian to the island Patmos. It was there that he wrote the Book of Revelation, which is the 27th book of the New Testament. Under Nerva, John returned to Ephesus, and there composed the Gospel of John, the 4th book of the New Testament, and three Epistles, called John 1, John 2, John 3. John reportedly died at a very old age.
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p30.htm

We hold, then, as the most probable view, that John was exiled to Patmos under Nero, wrote the Apocalypse soon after Nero’s death, a.d. 68 or 69, returned to Ephesus, completed his Gospel and Epistles several (perhaps twenty) years later, and fell asleep in peace during the year of Trajan, after a.d. 98.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc1.i.VII.42.html
============================================================
Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp who was the friend and pupil of St. John, said that John "for sixty years after the Ascension preached orally, till the end of Domitian's reign; and after the death of Domitian, having returned to Ephesus, he was induced to write (his Gospel) concerning the divinity of Christ, co-eternal with the Father; in which he refutes those heretics, Cerinthus and the Nicolaitans."
http://www.awmi.net/bible/joh

he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the [FONT=&quot]Apocalypse[/FONT], on which Justin Martyr and Irenæus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax and continuing there until the time of the Emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm

None of it claiming that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit would cease as soon as John stopped writing.


"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1

And so? He was writing to the Corinthians in 55 A.D., not you in the 21st century.

The NT is written for the church - you may choose to reject it - but I will stick with the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[vooks]

The answer to your childish prank - is in the post that you are not reading.

read.

Become informed.

=========================================



[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

The only infantile prank I can see is extensive verbiage that won't answer a simple question. Ellen White was a racist to the core

Did Ellen White forbid interracial (black-white) marriages?

 

[vooks]

None of it claiming that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit would cease as soon as John stopped writing.

in Christ,

Bob

Here lies SDA hypocrisy.
1. They believe in the continuation of spiritual gifts
2. For the last 1900 years of Christianity, they insist the ONLY gift to have ever manifested was the gift of prophecy and this was just in their godess Ellen White

Where are your tongues, interpretations, healings?
How was the church getting by for 1900 years WITHOUT any spiritual gift till Ellen White manifested?

In short, the difference between a cessationist who believes the gifts died off with the NT canon and an SDA is that the SDA believes the gifts revived BRIEFLY under Ellen White and then died with her FOREVER. An SDA only believe in the gifts to accommodate their racist godess.

So quit kidding yourself BobRyan, you are too old for that. You are not desiring prophecy and nobody in Adventism is coveting spiritual gifts; you have all you need in Ellen White

 

[DHK]

The NT is written for the church - you may choose to reject it - but I will stick with the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

I have never heard such ridiculous arguments as you and your friend OB have been putting forth.
It is in the NT; the NT is for the church; Therefore it is applicable to me.
The Bible is inspired; and therefore it is relevant to me.

As I replied once.
There are two witnesses in Revelation 11. That is inspired Scripture. It is in the NT. Therefore it is relevant. Therefore you can claim you are one of the witness. Thus Bob and OB are the two witnesses of Rev.11. Correct?

Jesus commanded Peter to walk on water. Peter walked on water.
It is in the NT. It is inspired. It is therefore relevant.
Therefore Bob and OB can now go to a lake and walk on water because Scripture is inspired and relevant.

In Acts 5:16 Peter healed thousands of sick people in and around Jerusalem in one day. It is in the NT--inspired and relevant.
Therefore Bob and OB are able to heal thousands completely just as Peter did in Acts 5:16

You can do anything you want to. Just claim it is inspired and relevant.
I have never heard a theology like that. Or does SDA believe something similar to "name it and claim it" theology; only this sounds far more extreme.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The NT is written for the church - you may choose to reject it - but I will stick with the Bible on this one.

I have never heard such ridiculous arguments as you and your friend OB have been putting forth.

you are free to reject the bible - you have free will -- I will take the Bible as noted in the quote you used above from me.

As I replied once.
There are two witnesses in Revelation 11. That is inspired Scripture.

And so are the two witnesses. OT and NT. they are banned and oppressed 1260 years - Bible burning and bible kept from the saints by the Papacy.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rev 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 ""And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.''[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 These are the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two olive trees[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two lampstands[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that stand before the Lord of the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The two witnesses are the two lampstands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Two lampstands are the Word of God (OT and the NT[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Zech 4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He said to me, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it;
3 also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]two olive trees[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side."
4 Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 Then he said to me, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This is the word of the LORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then I said to him, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]What are these two olive trees[/FONT][FONT=&quot] on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
12 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?"
13 So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 Then he said, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]These are the two anointed ones [/FONT][FONT=&quot]who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

It is in the NT. Therefore it is relevant. Therefore you can claim you are one of the witness. Thus Bob and OB are the two witnesses of Rev.11. Correct?

No. Where did that kind of nonsense come from?

 

[Darrell C]

And so are the two witnesses. OT and NT.

Here is the text:


Revelation 11:3-12

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


I will pose a few question which show conflict with an interpretation of the Two Witnesses being the Old and New Testaments.


1. How can both Testaments be given power 1260 days...only?

2. How can both be clothed in sackcloth?

3. How can they withhold the rain? Turn water to blood? Send plagues on the earth?

4. How does Antichrist kill them?

5. How does their dead bodies lie in the street?

6. Why would their enemies not want them buried?

7. Why are they called Prophets?

8. How can the Word of God die in the first place?

9. And after dying, what is the spirit of life that enters into them?

10. How do they have feet? Stand up?

11. Why do they ascend up to Heaven, or to the heavens?


God bless.