OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Spurgeon said he had a disagreement with him on the atonement but he didn't say what it was. So unless we have more information about that doctrine the jury is still out. You can't call a person a heretic when you don't know what he believes. That is ridiculous. Again, you go by hearsay which is the greater sin.
I posted a part of Spurgeon's remarks in another thread but for your edification:
"Mr. Darby maintains that a part of Christ's sufferings on the cross, were what he calls 'non-atoning,' that is, that in 'smiting' him as the shepherd on the cross, God did not do so with a view to an atonement for our sins, until a particular point of time, while Christ was hanging on the tree, and that then the wrath of God, in its atoning character, coalesced with his legal wrath. In association with the doctrine that much of the sufferings of Christ on the cross were without any atoning object or effect, Mr. Darby, advancing a step farther, denies that the atonement for our sins consisted even in Christ's death. But as it is probable some persons will find it difficult to believe that any man, professing to hold evangelical principles, and especially the leader of an important religious sect, also professing to be sound in the faith, could entertain such notions, and that I must have misunderstood Mr. Darby's meaning—it is due to him, and may be desirable for the reader, that I should quote his own words. They are given, in substance the same as in his monthly organ, 'The Present Testimony,' for August, 1866, a later date than that in which his other publication, 'The Sufferings of Christ,' made its appearance, and, therefore, notwithstanding all the remonstrances addressed to him by some of his followers against that dreadful doctrine, they are proved to have been without effect. He then stands before the religious world as still adhering to these fearful doctrines:—
"'There was, too, to him,' says Mr. Darby, 'in addition to the pain of the death, the legal curse appended, by God's righteous judgment as King of Israel, to the form of the death; as it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth upon a tree.' But this curse of the law was not the same thing as the wrath, when he cried out, 'My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?' The thieves bore it as he did; that thief, too, who went with him to paradise the same day, and who could go there to be with his Lord, because he, the Prince of Life, had borne the wrath due to sin in his own body on the tree. But the cross had been endured by many an unrepentant rebel against man and God; and the cross in itself would not take away sin. Yea, more, while the time in which he endured the cross was the period in part of which the wrath came on him (when he endured the wrath of God's judgment against sin), he only of the three that were crucified together, could or did bear the wrath; and the agony of that wrath, if his alone of the three then and there crucified, was distinct from, though present to him at the same time as the agonies (infinitely lesser) of the cross of wood!'
"The italics are not mine; they are those of the Rev. W. H. Dorman, who was for twenty-eight years the friend and admirer of Mr. Darby, and resigned the pastorship of a Congregational church in Islington to join his section of the Plymouth Brethren.
"The same sentiments are expressed in various other portions of Mr. Darby's writings; and even in some respects in language more objectionable still. That part of his theory, that Christ suffered much and long on the cross before there was anything of an atoning nature in his agonies, and simply as lying under the wrath of God in his character as King of Israel, is brought out more fully and more plainly than in the extract I have given. This is, in effect, to say that Christ actually had sins of his own in virtue of the relation which he sustained to the Jewish nation, as their king or head. There is something inexpressibly painful in the idea that our Lord suffered on the cross in any other capacity than as the Substitute or Sin-bearer for us. There is not a sentence in the word of God which gives the slightest sanction to it, but the contrary:—'While we were yet sinners Christ died for us;' 'He was made sin for us who knew no sin.' Mr. Darby says he did know sin as the King of Israel. 'He died for our sins and rose again for our justification; he died for our sins according to the Scriptures;' 'Who gave himself for our sins;' 'He is the propitiation for our sins;' 'Who bore our sins in his own body on the tree;' 'Who washed us from our sins in his own blood,' etc.
"The effect of this fearful theory of Dr. Darby, believed in and taught, be it remembered, by all the Brethren of his party, would be (?) as is well remarked by the author of a pamphlet written in reply to the theory, in the following words:—'Let the reader distinctly notice that in place of the single view of Christ's obedience unto death which the apostles set before us, who see God in the cross only as the smiter of his own fore-ordained Lamb, the sufferer is, by this teaching, placed under a triple necessity of dying under the hand of God. He kills him as Messiah; he smites him as the companion of others on the cross, and apart from atonement; and he makes him also an atoning substitute.' What a strange theological jumble, to say nothing of its pernicious tendencies wherever adopted.
"To say that our Lord suffered on the cross in any other way than as our sin-bearer, or as paying for us the debt which we owed to the justice of God, would be, to the poor law-condemned and self-condemned sinner, to divest the sufferings of Christ on the cross of much more of the grace and glory of his atoning sacrifice than language can express; while it would be to deprive the believer in them, in a corresponding measure, of that supreme comfort which he derives from looking back to the cross, and feeling that all that Christ suffered on the cross was solely for his disciples. . . .
"There is one of their doctrines which I regard as so vital that it appears to me it would, were it true, prove fatal to the whole scheme of man's redemption.
"The doctrine to which I allude is, that Christ's obedience to the law was not vicarious—was no part of the work which he wrought out for those for whom he became surety; in other words, that believers are in nowise interested in his obedience. Until Mr. Darby advanced this astounding doctrine, I am not aware that the notion was ever before even hinted at.
"In connection with the Plymouth Brethren's rejection of the doctrine—most surely believed by all evangelical denominations in every age of the church's history—of the vicarious purpose of Christ's obedience, there is the equally unreserved rejection of another doctrine which the great bulk of believers regard as one of vital importance. I allude to the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Not contented with pronouncing this doctrine as entirely unscriptural, the Plymouth Brethren seem to regard it with special aversion. . . .
"With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate. Among these, is the doctrine that the moral law is a thing with which believers in Christ have nothing to do, not even as a rule of life. This doctrine pervades the writings of the Darbyites, as well as their oral 'teaching.' . . .
http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/dbreth.htm
That is absolutely false. Surgeon held to a premillennial doctrine but rejected dispensationalism. Classic or historic premillennialism {they are the same} holds to the Biblical view of the Church. Pre-trib-dispensationalism developed the doctrine of the Church as a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for ethnic or national Israel to fit their pre-trib-"snatching away" of the church.If it is premillennial it is dispensational.
The millennial kingdom of classic or historical premillennialists is one in which the Church reigns with Jesus Christ. In the premillennial kingdom of dispensationalists the Jews Reign!That is obvious. The Millennial Kingdom is a dispensation. What follows is a dispensation. What is "pre" is a dispensation. Obviously, there are dispensations. This fact you cannot deny.
That is the doctrine of classic dispensationalism and I have presented quotes from such as Ryrie, Chafer, Ironside and others to prove it.I never said anything about a "parenthesis" in God's program.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94639
I have no idea who RevM is.I don't ever remember RevM agreeing to a belief in such a doctrine.
You are entitled to your opinion even when it is wrong!Yet you continue to harp on such a thing.
You are like little Tommie Spurgeon who has so many wrong conceptions about both dispensationalism and premillennialism just because you have a chip on your shoulder for one reason or another.