PreachTony
Active Member
Darrell...Darrell, Darrell, Darrell...
Many have tried this tactic. Very, very few, if any at all, have ever succeeded.
Good luck to you, brother.
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Elect Israel and The Church the same !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
Darrell...Darrell, Darrell, Darrell...
Many have tried this tactic. Very, very few, if any at all, have ever succeeded.
Good luck to you, brother.
Darrell...Darrell, Darrell, Darrell...
Many have tried this tactic. Very, very few, if any at all, have ever succeeded.
Good luck to you, brother.
That's okay, one day it will hit home and the fruit will be worth the effort.
It is good to have a focus issue with some people, especially if they are consumed with a singular issue (not saying the OP is, just pointing that out).
Sometimes those issues are the very thing holding someone back from progressing in understanding. I know in my own case there have been a couple "A-Ha!" moments that have helped me understand things I use to puzzle at. I look forward to those times, which is one benefit from Doctrinal Discussion with our brethren, because as we bring our studies together, inevitably someone is going to help our perspective in areas which usually...we've never given much consideration before.
And thanks for the blessing, my friend.
By the way, I got the biggest laugh out of this...
Darrell...Darrell, Darrell, Darrell...
...that I have had in a long time, thanks for that.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
darrell
Now you are being deceitful and misleading, I never said the gathering together took place in the OT, I stated that it was predicted that the gathering would take place when Shiloh comes Gen 49:10 which is Christ !
Now you need to show us where I stated that the gathering took place in the OT, or admit that you lied and are being deceitful !
Now you propose those in the Old Testament are the "Old Testament Church," but both quoted passages deny that, the first showing that it is in Christ that...
Eph 1:9-11
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
...which denies this took place under Old Testament Economies, and the second...
Now you are being deceitful and misleading, I never said the gathering together took place in the OT, I stated that it was predicted that the gathering would take place when Shiloh comes Gen 49:10 which is Christ !
Now you need to show us where I stated that the gathering took place in the OT, or admit that you lied and are being deceitful !
darrell
Now you are being deceitful and misleading, I never said the gathering together took place in the OT, I stated that it was predicted that the gathering would take place when Shiloh comes Gen 49:10 which is Christ !
Now you need to show us where I stated that the gathering took place in the OT, or admit that you lied and are being deceitful !
That's the point, my friend, you are saying that believers in the Old Testament were the Church when your text shows this didn't take place until Christ came and began building the Church.
The "gathering" is the creation of the Body of Christ.
Ephesians 1:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Your text and your teaching is in conflict with each other. You can't speak of the prophecy of the Gathering and then have those gathered as the ones receiving the prophecy.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
darrell
Jacob was part of the Body of Christ, He was part of the People. The gathering of the People included Gentile Believers who were also part of the same Body of Christ as Jacob was !
Its the same as it was stated by the High Priest Jn 11:51-52
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus[Shiloh] should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he[Shiloh] should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
This gathering together of the children of God is what Jacob foretold Gen 49:10 and is what Eph 1:10 refers to !
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ[Shiloh], both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Do you understand that Christ is Shiloh ?
That's the point, my friend, you are saying that believers in the Old Testament were the Church when your text shows this didn't take place until Christ came and began building the Church.
The "gathering" is the creation of the Body of Christ.
Jacob was part of the Body of Christ, He was part of the People. The gathering of the People included Gentile Believers who were also part of the same Body of Christ as Jacob was !
Its the same as it was stated by the High Priest Jn 11:51-52
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus[Shiloh] should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he[Shiloh] should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
This gathering together of the children of God is what Jacob foretold Gen 49:10 and is what Eph 1:10 refers to !
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ[Shiloh], both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Do you understand that Christ is Shiloh ?
darrell
Jacob was part of the Body of Christ, He was part of the People. The gathering of the People included Gentile Believers who were also part of the same Body of Christ as Jacob was !
Think about that, SBM: how can you reconcile something foretold, prophesied as something that will happen in the future...with trying to make already have happened when the prophecy was given?
Its the same as it was stated by the High Priest Jn 11:51-52
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus[Shiloh] should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he[Shiloh] should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
You are literally imposing into the text something that is not there.
John 11:49-53
King James Version (KJV)
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
First, Caiaphas was not a Priest that played a positive role in the Cross. Christ is the Only One Who effected redemption. While this man was High Priest, he was evil, not a member of the Church, but a member of Israel only.
Secondly, the text is clear that the Gathering would be due to Christ's death. That marks the point in time when we see that which was prophesied begin to be fulfilled.
Third, the imposition of the one man in Christ into the Old Testament Economies is shown to be impossible here:
Ephesians 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
We cannot impose the gathering or the Body of Christ into the Old Testament.
This gathering together of the children of God is what Jacob foretold Gen 49:10 and is what Eph 1:10 refers to !
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ[Shiloh], both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Agreed...foretold. It shows a future work to be done.
As does this:
Galatians 3:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
And when we look at the promises, and when they are fulfilled, we see that the Law did not bring righteousness as Christ would:
Galatians 2:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It was not until the fullness of time that we see those promises bestowed.
Do you understand that Christ is Shiloh ?
I can understand the Old Testament picture, my friend, but I don't rely on the picture over the realization of what that picture stood for.
This is what the Writer of Hebrews means when he tells those he rebukes...
Hebrews 5:11-6:2
King James Version (KJV)
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And understand I am not posting this to say you are guilty of this, just pointing out the writer's contrast between the picture, which are called the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ (literally the ABCs, the building blocks, the picture), and Perfection.
The First, or Beginning Principles foretold Christ in picture, but Christ coming brings completion (perfection). In chapter Ten he will tell us those sanctified by the Blood of Christ are made perfect, that is, complete, in regards to remission of sins...for ever.
It was not until Christ came that this was possible.
The Church is built upon confession of Christ, which confession we find only one, that is Peter, who did not make this confession of himself, but it was revealed, just like Caiaphas' prophecy...from Heaven.
Immediately after this confession Peter actually rebukes the Lord for...telling them the Gospel:
Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
The reason Peter didn't understand, couldn't understand, is simple: he was not yet eternally indwelt of God. He had not yet received the promises God gave in the Old Testament which are said to come through Christ:
Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The promise in view is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, taught by Christ in detail in John 14 and 16, with some reference in ch.15.
Christ told them...
John 14:16-18
King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
This is the gathering spoken of here:
Ephesians 1:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Just give it some consideration.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
I have made my point from scriptures and you don't believe the scriptures, that settles it!
I have made my point from scriptures and you don't believe the scriptures, that settles it!
I'm guessing you did not bother to read the Scriptures and points presented. You should, it will help you.
So I will leave you alone now, my friend.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
Nothing you said changed anything! You show me that you don't believe or understand the Truth, and you are adversary against it!I'm guessing you did not bother to read the Scriptures and points presented. You should, it will help you.
So I will leave you alone now, my friend.
God bless.
Again...
God bless.
I'm guessing you did not bother to read the Scriptures and points presented. You should, it will help you.
So I will leave you alone now, my friend.
God bless.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
See my previous reply !Again...
God bless.
See my previous reply !
So you refuse to address the response you yourself requested?
Okay.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
You heard what I said!So you refuse to address the response you yourself requested?
Okay.
God bless.
You heard what I said!
That is correct, and I have addressed what you said, whereas you are ignoring the points which show your doctrine muddled.
Elect Israel and the Church are not the same, they were not members of the Body of Christ, and your OP walks all over itself in teaching two entirely conflicting views as being possible.
I have addressed these issues and you have not once presented a rebuttal to those points.
When you begin addressing my posts as I have yours, then perhaps I may again join the conversation. Until then, continue to teach your gospel, if that is what you desire.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
Again, you have read what I stated before, nothing has changed from my points made previously!That is correct, and I have addressed what you said, whereas you are ignoring the points which show your doctrine muddled.
Elect Israel and the Church are not the same, they were not members of the Body of Christ, and your OP walks all over itself in teaching two entirely conflicting views as being possible.
I have addressed these issues and you have not once presented a rebuttal to those points.
When you begin addressing my posts as I have yours, then perhaps I may again join the conversation. Until then, continue to teach your gospel, if that is what you desire.
God bless.
Again, you have read what I stated before, nothing has changed from my points made previously!
You have made no point except the saved are saved before they are saved.
Kind of conflicts with...
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 and you deny that and say that they were not reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers! That's a lie and denial of the plain Truth!You have made no point except the saved are saved before they are saved.
Kind of conflicts with...
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
God bless.
So how can those reconciled to God by Christ death, how can they be born condemned by God as you blasphemously stated?
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 and you deny that and say that they were not reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers! That's a lie and denial of the plain Truth!
So how can those reconciled to God by Christ death, how can they be born condemned by God as you blasphemously stated?
I'm not the one saying the saved are saved before they are saved. This denies they are enemies when they are reconciled, because they, according to your doctrine...are already saved.
Stop ignoring the Scripture presented.
God bless.
savedbymercy
New Member
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are being enemies, you deny that, you have stated that only a opportunity for them was made available for them to be reconciled to God! You also are guilty of saying that people Christ died for are born into this world condemned by God! Do you believe that sinners Christ died for are born as condemned by God into the world?I'm not the one saying the saved are saved before they are saved. This denies they are enemies when they are reconciled, because they, according to your doctrine...are already saved.
Stop ignoring the Scripture presented.
God bless.
Wow! So I can take every promise made to Israel and count it as my own.
LOL funny good answer.
I'm still as a first born waiting for my inheritance, LOL :laugh: